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Thread: Shortest Continuous Footpath of the New Hampshire 4000'ers

  1. #16
    Senior Member spencer's Avatar
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    The Franconia Slide was not mentioned as a possibility in 1971, so I have to assume it was not an official trail

    a big point to remember here is Folsom's data only matters if you stick to official trails with no bushwhacking.

    here again, we run into questions of defining the game....

    spencer

  2. #17
    Senior Member Papa Bear's Avatar
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    Spencer

    There's no question that you need to agree on rules as to what routes are allowed or not.

    The reason the Lincoln Slide comes into the picture is that it was the traditional route to OH before the Lincoln Br. Trail and Franconia Br. Trail were even built. So it is not "just another bushwhack". Check This 1932 map .

    And in fact my 1966 AMC Franconia Map doesn't show the Twin Brook Trail as being there, although the Franconia and Lincoln Br. Trails are there by then. So I'm not sure what Folsom's route was in 1971. He may have had to go all the way to Garfield before going down to OH and back. Anyone know when the Twin Brook Trail was built?

    Come to think of it the Owl's Head slide and so called Owl's Head path at the top are not "official" trails either, even today (check your WMG). Certainly they are not on the 1966 map. They are not maintained "officially" by the AMC and were at one time considered bushwhacks themselves.

    Pb
    Last edited by Papa Bear; 04-14-2004 at 04:55 PM.
    Pb

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  3. #18
    Senior Member Mohamed Ellozy's Avatar
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    Twin Brook Trail

    Originally posted by Papa Bear
    Anyone know when the Twin Brook Trail was built?
    From The 4000-Footers of the White Mountains by Steve Smith and Mike Dickerman:
    1968: Twin Brook Trail from S opened by AMC, providing access to Galehead Hut and South Twin from the Pemi Wildernesss.

  4. #19
    Senior Member spencer's Avatar
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    I happened to remember my copy today, so here is his exact route from Galehead to the notch:

    Galehead to OH via Twin Brook and Lincoln Brook.
    Back to 13 Falls. Franconia brook and Garfield Ridge to Garfield.
    Garfield to L, L, L, F and back to Falling Waters.
    Down to the road.

    From OH up to the ridge via the Lincoln Slide would have required significant backtracking to get Garfield. Maybe that's why he avoided it, even if it was a trail then.

    Let me clarify another point I may have been confusing about.
    He ascended and descended Beaver Brook Trail on Moosilauke since going to the road via the lodge would have required a short bushwhack. He says that the newest AMC map of the time showed that the access road went within 1/10 of a mile to the lodge but not all the way to it.

    So, he must be referring to the zig-zag path from the typical lodge parking down the slope to the front door (which may not have been on the map). That of course is silly... I don't believe the delivery entrance (road that approaches the lodge from the downslope side of the leach field) was built that early, and thus there would not have been a viable route on the map.

    spencer

  5. #20
    Senior Member Papa Bear's Avatar
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    Originally posted by spencer
    I happened to remember my copy today, so here is his exact route from Galehead to the notch:

    Galehead to OH via Twin Brook and Lincoln Brook.
    Back to 13 Falls. Franconia brook and Garfield Ridge to Garfield.
    Garfield to L, L, L, F and back to Falling Waters.
    Down to the road.

    From OH up to the ridge via the Lincoln Slide would have required significant backtracking to get Garfield. Maybe that's why he avoided it, even if it was a trail

    spencer
    Actually that was not my suggestion. I suggested doing Garfield first, then down to OH viw Franconia Br. and Lincoln Br. Trails , then after sumitting OH. go up the Lincoln slide. The only backtracking would be the short jaunt over to Laf and back.

    An even shorter route might be to continue over to Laf from Garfield, then down the Lincoln Slide, do OH, back up the Lincoln slide and then continue along the ridge.

    This is all pretty moot since he seemed pretty anal about doing ANY bushwhacks if he didn't consider that little shortcut on the way down from the Moose.

    BUT, a modern day trekker like Tim or yourself can certainly set their own rules (more or less like Cavedog did for his exploit). And the next guy can set new rules, etc. The trick is to set rules that are transparent, and appealing enough that the next , and the next will say: "well, that makes sense, I'll do it that way".

    My point about the Lincoln Slide is it's an obvious route. Cavedog used it, and Frodo/Stinkyfeet were going to use it if they hadn't run out of daylight on that day.

    Or put it another way: if I'm going to redo the Folsom trek, I have to first have to add 2 peaks. What else makes sense to make this rational and appealing - certainly don't skip that tiny section on Moose - well, what else?

    At least that's what I would do if I were to consider this trek. And I might - after a few other things like the NE FF and the Torngat 5Ks.

    Pb
    Pb

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  6. #21
    Senior Member RoySwkr's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Papa Bear
    This is all pretty moot since he seemed pretty anal about doing ANY bushwhacks if he didn't consider that little shortcut on the way down from the Moose.

    BUT, a modern day trekker like Tim or yourself can certainly set their own rules (more or less like Cavedog did for his exploit).

    ...
    Or put it another way: if I'm going to redo the Folsom trek, I have to first have to add 2 peaks. What else makes sense to make this rational and appealing - certainly don't skip that tiny section on Moose - well, what else?
    The distinction to make is that Rev. Folsom was trying for SHORTEST DISTANCE, and if you allow bushwhacks the shortest distance is near 100% bushwhack although it would take much longer. He actually hiked this route in sections over a year so elapsed time was not a concern.

    If Tim's goal is SHORTEST TIME, he can do all the bushwhacks he wants but that probably means almost none.

  7. #22
    Senior Member ColdRiverRun's Avatar
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    This is a good one! I'm going to bump it since 90%+ of the members here weren't members when this was discussed. Should be fun for people to think about.
    Cory D
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  8. #23
    Member BethW's Avatar
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    traveling salesman problem (TSP) route

    Should anyone be interested, my husband and I ran a modified TSP program in Matlab on the 48 4K footers in the WMNF. I'm not going to claim this is the best TSP solution - just what we came up with out of interest in the problem.

    Open Circuit Loop

    Closed Circuit Loop

    Edit: To be clear - this is a theoretical route and was calculated mathematically with straight lines to the peaks. No trails involved and I haven't looked yet to see if it's even possible (are some sections impassable?). The real deal is certainly longer than 181 miles.



    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Bear View Post
    I suggest as a first approximation you plug in the locations and minimize the straight line distances connecting them (the "all bushwhack" scenario). Run it through a traveling salesman program. You may be very surprised if you start with this since the program won't have your biases about what "must" be the best way.
    Last edited by BethW; 07-05-2012 at 09:55 PM.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Tim Seaver's Avatar
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    Very cool, Beth. Splitting the Presidentials into two "pieces" and ascending Jefferson via Caps Ridge is something that didn't occur to me - this route completely removes the section between Jefferson and Washington. If it's really only 181+ miles this way, that's pretty amazing, even if there was an elevation gain penalty of some sort for "double-dipping" up and over the Prezzies .

    EDIT : Castle Ridge might be the shorter way, I haven't measured.
    Last edited by Tim Seaver; 07-05-2012 at 07:16 PM.
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  10. #25
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    uh...anyone wanna let Farmer know ?

    Congrats to Tim on the original work and to Beth on the TSP. Cool stuff.
    Dead Last > Did Not Finish > Did Not Start

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  11. #26
    Moderator bikehikeskifish's Avatar
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    I'm kind of disappointed neither Tim nor Ryan took up my 100 Mile, 49,500 foot route to Mt. Washington challenge

    Tim
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  12. #27
    Member Jeff List's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BethW View Post
    Should anyone be interested, my husband and I ran a modified TSP program in Matlab on the 48 4K footers in the WMNF. I'm not going to claim this is the best TSP solution - just what we came up with out of interest in the problem.

    Open Circuit Loop

    Closed Circuit Loop

    The open circuit route is pretty close to Mats Roing's route, including the Presis split, which is pretty interesting.

    Of course all the bushwacking required for the open circuit route might just be a little time consuming. ;-)

    A close approximation of the open circuit route, but using trails (mostly), and the Castle tr., comes to about 237 miles with 82k of elevation gain.

  13. #28
    Senior Member TDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehikeskifish View Post
    I'm kind of disappointed neither Tim nor Ryan took up my 100 Mile, 49,500 foot route to Mt. Washington challenge

    Tim
    Ha, I remember this. The route would have to be modified today with Rocky Branch and Dry River trails in the state that they are.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Is there a simple listing of all "standard" FKTs ? I found this; http://fastestknowntime.proboards.co...play&thread=42

    I'm sure some here might know off hand. Not that I'm planning on breaking any records, but I forget which threads here have included finishes.

    BTW Tim Seaver, this is one of the best WMNH pics I've seen:

    Dead Last > Did Not Finish > Did Not Start

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    THAT INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS POST IS ACCURATE, RELIABLE OR APPROPRIATE FOR ANY PARTICULAR SITUATION.

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