Government shutdown...

JCarter said:

You know, a *list* would be really useful.

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http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/campsites/campsites-profile.cfm

I assume that all are officially closed.

David Metsky said:

http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/campsites/campsites-profile.cfm

I assume that all are officially closed.

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Yes, but that's not a complete list of backcountry tentsites in the WMNF, that's a list of ones with AMC caretakers. And bizarrely the AMC huts are still open?

JCarter said:

...And bizarrely the AMC huts are still open?

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Umm... why is that bizarre? Am quite certain the RMC huts are still open. As is the Cog RR, which I'm quite sure is on USFS land above Waumbek station. And isn't Wildcat Ski area still operational? Am quite sure that there many other facilities/services which lease or have permission to use USFS which aren't affected the politics in Washington.

At around $100/person, I would think the AMC huts would stay open as long as possible until weather dictates????

The AMC's influence might help keep Gale River and Zealand Roads open if the Forest Services decides to start gating, about that I would not complain.

This AMC post hit Facebook about 5 hrs ago:

http://news.outdoors.org/2013/10/update-mohican-wmnf-backcountry.html

May clarify some of the questions in the #60's posts above.

How can a backcountry campsite be closed ? They will send rangers to make sure nobody put their tent down there ?

Kevin Rooney said:

Umm... why is that bizarre? Am quite certain the RMC huts are still open. As is the Cog RR, which I'm quite sure is on USFS land above Waumbek station. And isn't Wildcat Ski area still operational? Am quite sure that there many other facilities/services which lease or have permission to use USFS which aren't affected the politics in Washington.

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They closed the campgrounds (operated by private concessionaire), why not the huts? Neither involved USFS personnel, and both are located on USFS land.

But really, what does it mean for "backcountry tentsites" to be closed? Which ones? What is "backcountry" in bureaucrateeze?

I can think of at least 2 named "backcountry tentsites" that are entirely unstaffed, and have nearly no amenities. I know of DOZENS of "designated camping areas" in the various Wilderness areas, that have no names and don't even appear on maps. Are these considered "closed"? They're about as backcountry as it gets. Do they consider the free, unimproved roadside tentsites to be "backcountry"?

(Can't speak for the Cog, I don't know if their strip of land is leased, easement, or actually privately owned.)

I'm actually not trying to argue whether anything should or shouldn't be closed, or even really understand the reasoning. I just want a list that I can understand.

Sherby said:

How can a backcountry campsite be closed ? They will send rangers to make sure nobody put their tent down there ?

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Well, they are ticketing people caught in the Grand Canyon and South Rim, so closed=you will get fined in some places, and closed=no authorities present in others.

So why are National Parks different from National Forests? Why are trails closed in one and not the other?

Still stinging from being thrown out of Shenandoah!

They are ticketing in Acadia and Valley Forge as well.

From the AMC site:

White Mountain National Forest (WMNF) backcountry campsites are closed. As part of the shutdown of federally owned recreation facilities, the U.S. Forest Service has closed Hermit Lake Shelters and other backcountry shelters and tentsites in the WMNF. Anyone camping in these locations as of Monday, October 7, will have 48 hours to vacate these sites.

I feel like this isn't a big deal. I'm not one to hang around more than 48 hours at a site any way...shoot...probably am not going to be there for more than 10-12. So, they are welcome to follow along and give you a 48-hour notice at every site you go to.

gram said:

So why are National Parks different from National Forests? Why are trails closed in one and not the other?

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Different implementation of the shutdown by the Department of the Interior (National Parks) and Department of Agriculture (Forest Service). For example, the Park Service has taken down all their web sites, while the Forest Service sites (at least the ones I've checked) are still up.

JCarter said:

They closed the campgrounds (operated by private concessionaire), why not the huts? Neither involved USFS personnel, and both are located on USFS land.

But really, what does it mean for "backcountry tentsites" to be closed? Which ones? What is "backcountry" in bureaucrateeze?

I can think of at least 2 named "backcountry tentsites" that are entirely unstaffed, and have nearly no amenities. I know of DOZENS of "designated camping areas" in the various Wilderness areas, that have no names and don't even appear on maps. Are these considered "closed"? They're about as backcountry as it gets. Do they consider the free, unimproved roadside tentsites to be "backcountry"?

(Can't speak for the Cog, I don't know if their strip of land is leased, easement, or actually privately owned.)

I'm actually not trying to argue whether anything should or shouldn't be closed, or even really understand the reasoning. I just want a list that I can understand.

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Just checked the GIS database, and there is a strip of land from Marshfield Station to the summit that is NOT owned by the USFS. Similarly for the Auto Road. Base Station Rd from 302 to Mt Clinton Rd is shown as USFS, but from there to the station is not.

But still: by "Backcounty tentsites", do they mean only the things on the AMC list or not? What about Franconia Brook East, and Valley Way? What about Fourth Iron? (did it ever reopen?) Osgood?

Is the unnamed designated site on the Davis Path 0.5 mile inside the Wilderness Boundary a "tentsite"?

What about Dry River Shelter #3? The trails leading to it are closed, but if you were to bushwack over from the Mt Eisenhower Trail, would you technically be breaking the law?


This question is not entirely academic. I'm planning a trip to camp in the backcountry with a Boy Scout Troop, and it's hard enough finding camp-able spots in the WMNF. Having to avoid the places that are known to be campable makes this even more of a challenge.

But it would be an interesting news article "Boy Scout Troop arrested for camping in non-closed National Forest".

Trying to apply logic to what is open or closed is difficult but here is my guess

If the site had a caretaker or the option of a caretaker and is on USFS property its officially closed

If there is a designated RUA around the site, its closed.

If its designated primitive site like the ones in the great gulf or on Rocky Branch near the Davis path I would expect not.

I believe Valley way tent sites may be in the RUA for valley way.

Practically for a group, hike high and camp down in the valleys following the dispersed camping regulations or head north on the Coos Trail which is on private of state land north of RT 110 until you hit Silvio Conte NRA.

I went to http://www.wmur.com/tv/contact and submitted story idea to get clarification about what facilities are 'closed' and what 'closed' means. I am having trouble accepting that I cant go camping or hiking if the government is 'closed'. I couldn't find a search on wmur site, so if it has already been covered, then apologies in advance.

Since the " shutdown news" seems to change as fast as the weather for the WMNF and higher summits, Plan A ( first choice of doing xyz) , Plan B ( Backup with doing abc instead of xyz ) and Plan C ( choose to retreat in favor of another experience at a later date) all seem to have the same intrinsic value they've always had. Save your own butt.

These folks on Monroe Monday were NOT impacted by the govt shutdown, and Madison Spring hut is listed as open in self-service mode.

http://www.berlindailysun.com/index...mount-madison&catid=103:local-news&Itemid=442

< shrugs pragmatically> Glad these folks were brought down safely.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Breeze

Breeze said:

Madison Spring hut is listed as open in self-service mode.

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Just an FYI: Madison Hut closed on 9/21 and doesn't have a self-service season.

Pardon my ignorance, but what's a "Designated RUA"? And how would I find out if one exists?

I had a long chat with the folks at the White Mountain Visitor Center (NOT the WMNF), and they think the interpretation is that sites (shelters/tentsites) that charged fees are closed (primarily the ones operated by AMC), but the ones w/o fees are not closed. What isn't clear is if anything changes if the site changes from fee to no-fee (like most of them would have next week, anyway). It's seems they may still be closed.

They also said the parking areas were all still accessible.

Restricted Use Areas. See page 3 on This Document