A bunch of rescues last weekend

DayTrip said:

Stories like these and others in similar threads about group size, etc make me question the worth of these AMC groups.

Click to expand...

There are hundreds of AMC volunteer led trips every year in the Whites, thousands up and down the East Coast. Don't extrapolate one or two bad experiences to the entire program. With any program of that size you will get a few misguided or misinformed leaders and not hear about the 100's of successful, informed, and sociable leaders.

DayTrip said:

Stories like these and others in similar threads about group size, etc make me question the worth of these AMC groups. What exactly are they teaching or not teaching to throngs of new hikers when they make idiotic statements like that?

Click to expand...

I'm cautious not to draw general conclusions. The AMC groups I've come across seem to have been well-led and by and large happy groups. There are bad apples in every barrel, but I think the AMC is a good bunch.

peakbagger said:

My assumption is I to was clueless at one point long ago and others put up with it so I am just paying some past hiker forward.

Click to expand...

I completely agree. If I see a folks that look unprepared or starting quite late on a hike, I just let it go. You learn from experience, mistakes and common sense. If someone asks a question, I gladly assist and take out my map. And as you said, a simple question like 'do you have a flashlight', puts their agenda into a whole new perspective.

David Metsky said:

There are hundreds of AMC volunteer led trips every year in the Whites, thousands up and down the East Coast. Don't extrapolate one or two bad experiences to the entire program. With any program of that size you will get a few misguided or misinformed leaders and not hear about the 100's of successful, informed, and sociable leaders.

Click to expand...

Fair point. Just seems like whenever I read about AMC led trips on this forum it is in a negative context. The only "interaction" I've had with these groups is in passing them on the trail and the groups are usually very large (well over 10 people). Does anyone know how many of these groups go out in a given summer in NH or NE? Dozens? Hundreds? Do they merely ensure safe passage for the guests or are they actually teaching stuff too?

You don't hear about pleasant airline travel either. Nor about traffic-free rush hour commutes. Etc.

Tim

David Metsky said:

There are hundreds of AMC volunteer led trips every year in the Whites, thousands up and down the East Coast. Don't extrapolate one or two bad experiences to the entire program. With any program of that size you will get a few misguided or misinformed leaders and not hear about the 100's of successful, informed, and sociable leaders.

Click to expand...

Thank you for that.

AMC, Meetup, ADK, 3500 Club, etc., yes they all have good and bad leaders. But from what I can tell, the good outweigh the bad.

As a 3500 Club hike leader, I am always looking for teachable moments. We interview hikers to make sure they have the gear and experience for the intended trip. Sometimes we turn them away, with pointers as to what they lack.

We always have a little talk at the beginning of each hike, discussing staying together as a group, and other topics. We get out a map and describe the intended route. If it's off trail, when we get to where the bushwhack begins, we again get out the map and compass, and show them what we do to determine a bearing.

I also discuss Leave No Trace practices as the hike goes on. Camping above 3500 feet is illegal in the Catskills, and I frequently have to tell people why. We pack trash out if we discover it.

And we do shun Cotton! When it gets wet, it tends to stay wet.

We also teach Winter preparedness classes.

I could go on, but I hope this answers the question posed above: "Do they merely ensure safe passage for the guests or are they actually teaching stuff too?"

DayTrip said:

Fair point. Just seems like whenever I read about AMC led trips on this forum it is in a negative context. The only "interaction" I've had with these groups is in passing them on the trail and the groups are usually very large (well over 10 people). Does anyone know how many of these groups go out in a given summer in NH or NE? Dozens? Hundreds? Do they merely ensure safe passage for the guests or are they actually teaching stuff too?

Click to expand...

You can look at the calendar of events for AMC-NH or AMC-ME as well as any of the other regions to see what trips are scheduled. I took a look at the NH site out of curiosity. They have about 16 trips planned next month. That doesn't include the Maine or Mass chapters though which are also active. I look at the AMC site once in a while to see what trips they are doing.

The point has been made I think but to agree...the AMC runs a lot of trips and has a lot of volunteer leaders. Most are good. There are a lot of trips run all seasons and if people were getting lost and disappearing in quicksand, etc. we would all be talking about it. It's the idiots that stand out like everywhere as Tim's post exemplified. I have been on very few AMC hikes but on those the leaders were quite competent (although physical issues beyond their control made one hike interesting.)

Another point that may bear mentioning is that many on VFTT whom you may have heard criticize the AMC volunteer leaders may quite simply be far more experienced in mountain related pursuits. My point being, these are VOLUNTEER-led trips, and although there are standards before one can become a leader for the AMC trips, the differences among individual leaders will still vary greatly and some probably simply have much further than others to go on the learning curve.

I wouldn't want to lead a group on a hike nor would I want to be on one just because I don't care for that much company on the trail. Two other companions is a group for me. We were coming down Unknown Pond Trail a couple of years ago completing the Cabot loop over the Bulge and the Horn around 3:30 pm on a summer day. Met a couple with a dog just below Unknown Pond. They had no packs, no water, no map, no nothing. Nice folks though. The woman asked me, "Does this trail go all the way around back to where we parked?" I took a few minutes and explained that yes it did, but it would be dark before they got back. I think they continued to the pond and assume they survived.

Grey J said:

I wouldn't want to lead a group on a hike nor would I want to be on one just because I don't care for that much company on the trail. Two other companions is a group for me.

Click to expand...

I'm not exactly thrilled with large hikes either, but we do it for several reasons.

Giving back to the club that got me started in hiking is one.

We limit to 12 total with the leader(s), so as not to be too big, but still accommodate the demand for popular peaks.

Most hikes are social in nature. We've met a lot of new friends that way.

When we don't lead club hikes, Laurie and I are usually out just as a couple.

DayTrip said:

Fair point. Just seems like whenever I read about AMC led trips on this forum it is in a negative context. The only "interaction" I've had with these groups is in passing them on the trail and the groups are usually very large (well over 10 people). Does anyone know how many of these groups go out in a given summer in NH or NE? Dozens? Hundreds? Do they merely ensure safe passage for the guests or are they actually teaching stuff too?

Click to expand...

There's a pretty good chance you've had lots of other "interactions" with AMC groups, you just didn't know they were AMC groups. The trips I most often lead are myself, a co-leader, and 2-4 participants. I don't allow a group size larger than 10 total, and getting to that size is extremely rare. And I don't announce to all passers-by, "Hey, we're an AMC group!"

Most of the trips I lead have some educational component - most often map and compass. I also participate in the Boston Winter Hiking Program as a leader, and this program is certainly about teaching safety and comfort (and fun). I only occassionally lead trips that are without an educational focus.

But that's just me, and there are a wide variety of motivations and focuses among the other leaders I know. My experiences with the AMC, as a participant and a leader, have been overwhelmingly positive (with only a couple of exceptions), and part of my motivation for leading is to "give back" in hopes that others will get as much out of the organization as I have.

David Metsky said:

There are hundreds of AMC volunteer led trips every year in the Whites, thousands up and down the East Coast. Don't extrapolate one or two bad experiences to the entire program. With any program of that size you will get a few misguided or misinformed leaders and not hear about the 100's of successful, informed, and sociable leaders.

Click to expand...

It's also worth pointing out that just as we are all, as hikers, capable of making mistakes (and hopefully learning from them), trip leaders make mistakes (and hopefully learn from them) as well. Generally, my experience has been that it's people who are newer to a leadership role or a body of knowledge who are more likely to make those kinds of blanket statements (about cotton killing, etc.)

bikehikeskifish said:

Not to mention feeling pressure to continue so as not to turn the whole group around when I might have done so were I not subject to such strict rules.

Tim

Click to expand...

Most of us should be able to talk them out of turning back on our behalf or even sending another hiker. I did it back in the 90's on a Carter Dome trip when the flu made continuing just pact the 19 Mile / Carter Dome junction. Had I continued I might have made Zeta and dropped. If you wait until the very top, you might have a different result.

The American Alpine Journal just published a report from a climbing guide who happened to be on the scene when the fall took place. Doesn't really shed any new light on the subject, but it does serve as a reminder of how useful it is to have a partner who check over our protection and ensure that everything is as it should be.

http://publications.americanalpinec...ll-on-Rock-Possible-Rappel-Error-Rope-Soloing


Brian