One Day Pemi Loop - 21 hikers

vftt.org

Help Support vftt.org:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Is it not possible that they may be breaking up into smaller sub groups of ten or less? If the leader said he is aware of it then let's give the fellow the benefit of the doubt before we create something that is not.
 
They reportedly have a fairly high burn out rate of folks who sign up and don't show or party a bit late the night before and drop out. Unfortunately this group tend to be the "poster child" for organized groups that "make a lot of trace" in the whites. The Canadian tour buses are high on the list but they generally stay out of Wilderness areas.

Per Skiguy's comment that I missed, AMC on occasion will break their presi traverse groups into groups of ten using a staggered start but inevitably, they end ganging up half way. Hard to keep groups staggered.

Unfortunately, there really isn't a good way of starting groups at other points of the loop to spread the impact as any other point requires additional mileage in and out. In theory they could break the groups into clockwise and counter clockwise.
 
Last edited:
They reportedly have a fairly high burn out rate of folks who sign up and don't show or party a bit late the night before and drop out. Unfortunately this group tend to be the "poster child" for organized groups that "make a lot of trace" in the whites. The Canadian tour buses are high on the list but they generally stay out of Wilderness areas.

Per Skiguy's comment that I missed, AMC on occasion will break their presi traverse groups into groups of ten using a staggered start but inevitably, they end ganging up half way. Hard to keep groups staggered.

Unfortunately, there really isn't a good way of starting groups at other points of the loop to spread the impact as any other point requires additional mileage in and out. In theory they could break the groups into clockwise and counter clockwise.

What is the spirit of the 10 person limit? To me, a group of trail runners is not a big deal even if it violates the letter of the law.
 
If one group that is more than twice the allowed size can do it, then that is the start of the decline in following the rules, which in turn makes this less of a wilderness experience. I wouldn't enjoy being passed by that many people as I hiked with all my gear.
 
Suppose if they break it up with 10 clockwise and 11 counterclockwise, I'd be okay with "the spirit" of the regulations. They still actually have to show up and make it too.
 
And they tweaked the attendance to say '100' as a deliberate jab. While i certainly agree with the observation that Meetup attendees are flakes, and don't show at the trailhead, I'd guess that people who sign up for this sort of event are on the 'less-flakey' end of the spectrum. So, while they probably won't get 21, the odds that the group will be as small as 10 seems small.

Sadly, it's this kind of BS that has resulted in advance-reservation permits being required in many Wilderness areas. I'd really hate for that kind of system to get put in place in the Whites.
 
From a pure ruin-my-wilderness-experience, I'd rather have 21 people run past me in 5 minutes than 21 people come by 5 minutes apart.

Tim

Yeah, that is my thought too. And in terms of impact, two groups of 20 vs 4 groups of 10 is still 40 people on the trail. Most trails that see those numbers can handle the load. The wilderness trails on the Pemi Loop are quite different than most.

Una, thanks for responding. I was also wondering if the spirit of the rule was more for camping vs. day hikes.
 
I have it on good authority that they will not all be traveling together (which is sort of a hallmark of meetup, for better or worse), so there you have it...
 
I'm an admitted cynic and the whole Meet Up culture has been a thorn in my hiking side since inception (putting all up front here) but all that aside, I read the post/invite linked and I'm disappointed there is no mention of Wilderness Regs Group Size Limitations and a statement on how that will be handled. For me, the very first inquiry "is this a good hike for beginners" , albeit most likely tongue-in-cheek, really defines the whole Meet Up Culture for me. (apologies in advance for any/all Meet Uppers I offend and ultimately may end up hiking with one day :) )

The bottom line for me is, there is no obvious attempt to inform or limit group size, which suggests a lack of understanding of the regs or blatant disregard...not that I'm a big rules girl myself, but Wilderness Group size happens to be one that I appreciate and hold dear.
 
Last edited:
Personally I would not be too concerned about these folks being or becoming aware of the Wilderness Regulations going into this hike. There is a lot of presence of "Big Brother" of the White Mountains at this trailhead. Face it. If a single hiker alone from this board has been caught on film peeing in a snow bank and fined; a large group heading in will be dealt with. Also not to mention a continued presence of the AMC multiple stops along the way. Again the leader has made it be known he is aware of the regulations.
 
There are all kinds of groups that apparently do not follow regulations. Just a couple days ago I drove by the Hurricane Mountain trailhead (ADK primitive area, day group size limit 15) and there was a group of at least 50 high school age kids being herded onto the trail. Maybe some kind of special event? Or maybe just another oversized group?
 
Not sure why all meetup groups are always lumped together in many of these posts...

I read the listing and was disappointed not to see any mention of LNT ethics or Wilderness Regs - something I would personally be looking for to gauge the "Group Mind" of any organized hike I would be considering - purely a personal preference and filter. Sorry to say for me, the mere mention of the entity "Meet Up"'conjures up images of loud, large groups, and my perception is shaped by my encounters.

That said, when I was a fledgling hiker, it was pre- Internet (I'm old!) and any organized hikes I joined were lead by local conservation chapters/naturalists, etc. Given my introduction to hiking, my expectations of Meet Up is that it in part be used as a modern vehicle to engage and inform as well as organize outings, but realistically that is up to the MU Group itself to project that mission. Not doing so, IMHO, is a missed opportunity.
 
Last edited:
I think, taken in isolation, a single 20-person group isn't that bad. Split up into 2 or three groups, you could argue it's no different than many other outings out there. The problem becomes if it's not a single 20-person group. What if you had an AMC-sponsered trip, a few different Meet-Ups, a school outing, a church outing, etc. That's where the problem arises. I have no desire to come to a trail intersection and hear 20 people chatting away. There's no way to keep 20 people quiet (unless you were my 2nd grade teacher, she could quiet down any room with just a glare....).

I agree with una_dogger, this particular group are missing a great opportunity to advertise and keep the regulations in everyone's sites. They tout themselves as they do, and maybe they actually do, but I don't see it.
 
A few comments,

The leader of the Meetup group has removed my original comment to his event which made him and those who signed up aware of the wilderness regulation. He has subsequently edited the announcement to acknowledge the group size of 10. Thus something good may have come out of this. Unfortunately tweaking the group size to 100 pretty well establishes that he doesn't accept constructive input and tends to reinforce the New Yorker stereotype.

There is a fundamental disconnect on dispersing a group without telling folks in advance. I would expect that far more folks would tend to sign up for a group Pemi loop rather than doing it as unsupported solo event. Effectively if the group disperses, it becomes a semi supported solo event. Unless the participants are well vetted, some will go slower and possibly have to bail at some point. Thus without technology like Spot, the group leader really does not know how many people are actually still on the trail hiking after he/or she is sitting in the parking lot or campground having a few beers. As the group will be dispersed, will there be a sweep team to assist folks who are injured or incapacitated by such common things as hypothermia or dehydration/heat stroke? Even if there is sweep team, how will they know if an individual took the wrong turn or stepped off in the woods when they pass? From a group management perspective, its far easier to hike as a group and stay as group with the possibility that if a participant does have issues, someone else can volunteer to cut their day short and escort the hiker out. Of course that trips the group of 10 rule.

Unfortunately many Meetup participants assume that the person posting the trip is knowledgeable of the terrain and potential risks and is handling all the details and they just show up for the hike. This works unless the leader is clueless, a somewhat publicized example is one of the HVH hike leaders who set up a trip in the Mahoosucs and decided to take a short cut and ended up on the wrong side of the ridge at the end of a dead end road at dusk, 35 miles away for their groups car. In the New Hampshire area is another group whose leader had for a fairly long period of time adopted the survival of the fittest strategy and would have relatively large group sizes (20 to 30) wherein he would take up with his select group at their own pace and leave the rest of the group to fend for themselves. The group is still around with a very large membership and is very active running multiple hikes most weekends.

I actively participate in Meetup and am a trip leader on occasion. It tends to be a gateway for many to getting into the outdoors for the first time or getting back in. Somewhat like VFTT was long ago, it was low commitment way of joining a group and gaining some skills and meeting like minded individuals. I realize that many long term VFTT folks tend to only hike within their facebook group but the downside is that this tends to be exclusionary to new people who might want to head out hiking as they are probably not aware of the particular facebook group that they could join.

The downside to any group hike is many folks learn by doing and if the leader is doing the wrong thing, the participants are learning the wrong thing and reapplying it on future hikes, thus the importance of the leader to try to follow the rules and letting the members know why.

I personally avoid large Meetup groups and find the size limitation of group of 10 is pretty effective. It is difficult to manage the group size as there are many folks who sign up and no show, thus a group of 10 signed up may yield a group of 4 hikers. Thus some leaders intentionally enlarge the group size to accommodate the no shows.

The forest service group size regulations tend to be fairly vague and leave a lot of judgment on the part of the FS employee. The regulations are intended as a management tool rather than a enforcement tool. Baxter State Park had to modify their regulations last year to be quite specific when some groups started to try to work around them "2.1. The maximum size of hiking groups shall be 12 persons. Affiliated groups on the same trail separated by less than one mile shall be considered one group." This change was reportedly made when groups would discharge a large group at a trail head and then would disperse the group by starting at staggered intervals, generally they would rapidly become a large group again.

Long ago I discussed the group size rules with a FS employee and she indicated that any organized activity with more than 10 participants even if they were well dispersed was inherently a group and thus banned from a wilderness area. The inquiry was made for a possible fundraiser where dispersed individuals would collect pledges and walk to a specific point through a wilderness area. While discussing this, the point was brought up that this specifically included other dispersed activities such as races and competitions. For several years when the Lincoln Woods cabin was staffed by FS, every group over 10 was challenged if they tried to cross the bridge and groups were turned back if they were over 10 or did not have an outfitter guide card. In many other spots in the whites at the same time, bus loads of youth groups routinely were hiking Tuckermans. It all comes down to the forest supervisor or the district ranger on what priorities are to be enforced by their staff. The FS employee is long gone and I expect over the 20 years the enforcement priorities have changed repeatedly.
 
Last edited:
Top