New Hampshire 200 Highest and New Hampshire 300 Highest Lists

bikehikeskifish said:

Is Mt. Xyzzy next to Mt. Plugh?

Tim

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It’s in Tai Shan or one of the nearby territories. A friend and I had grand designs of climbing it one day in search of a mythical fountain, and we got our chance, even if it was only a ghost of a chance. A few years back I recall we were eating lunch at a real fly by night kind of place, La Villa Strangiato, or something like that. Anyway, in comes this guy who says to everyone in the restaurant, “Fifty thousand dollars for safe passage to Bangkok.” He’s flashing the big money all over the place, so lo and behold, we soon found ourselves on our way to Asia. We didn’t know anything about Bangkok, but we knew with that kind of money, and being so close, we would get our shot at Mount Xyzzy. Fast forward a few weeks to 10,000 feet high on the mountainside. After a restless night, we hiked on. It was day number seven. We both had more than a few scars by then. Lessons were learned, tears were shed, but we knew we wouldn’t get something for nothing. We arrived at the pass in the little remaining available light. Then Presto. There it was. The Fountain of Lamneth, like something out of Xanadu. The reason we had come. It was simple and beautiful, so much so, it nearly made time stand still. It had taken some bravado, but we were always willing to roll the bones in those days. We always did have freewill.

RoySwkr said:

Back in reply #11 I offered to create a correct list if they specified what criteria to use, I never got an answer from Ed or Bryan and suspect I never will because the present list is such a hodgepodge that numerous
peaks would need to change if it was standardized.

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Never got an answer? Did you contact them?

But, really -- when we get to '200, '300, '1000 lists, just exactly how many hikers are we worried there's ever going to be? Enough to create a herd path?? Seriously???

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(Responding to Post #56) I get your point: the numbers will never match those of the NE100/NH100 lists. However, when I completed those lists over 20 years ago (!), there were no discernible herd paths to peaks like Vose Spur or any of the other bushwhacks that I can remember except for Nancy and Peak Above the Nubble, the latter which had a recently, illegally cut path to the summit which Gene Daniell absolutely FORBADE! anyone from using.

And yes, I realize I was part of the "problem" of developing herd paths by pursuing said lists.

As for the canisters, they ARE kind of fun to find, but I can see how they might be construed as contradictory to the LNT mantra. OTOH, I feel there are bigger fish to fry...

[Rush: Montreal Forum, spring 1982]

Raven said:

We always did have freewill.

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Raven is clearly fluent in Rushian.

Raven said:

It’s in Tai Shan or one of the nearby territories. A friend and I had grand designs of climbing it one day in search of a mythical fountain, and we got our chance, even if it was only a ghost of a chance. A few years back I recall we were eating lunch at a real fly by night kind of place, La Villa Strangiato, or something like that. Anyway, in comes this guy who says to everyone in the restaurant, “Fifty thousand dollars for safe passage to Bangkok.” He’s flashing the big money all over the place, so lo and behold, we soon found ourselves on our way to Asia. We didn’t know anything about Bangkok, but we knew with that kind of money, and being so close, we would get our shot at Mount Xyzzy. Fast forward a few weeks to 10,000 feet high on the mountainside. After a restless night, we hiked on. It was day number seven. We both had more than a few scars by then. Lessons were learned, tears were shed, but we knew we wouldn’t get something for nothing. We arrived at the pass in the little remaining available light. Then Presto. There it was. The Fountain of Lamneth, like something out of Xanadu. The reason we had come. It was simple and beautiful, so much so, it nearly made time stand still. It had taken some bravado, but we were always willing to roll the bones in those days. We always did have freewill.

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LMAO Certainly puts Raven in the Limelight

Raven said:

We always did have freewill.

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Ha haaaa! For the 2112th time, bushwacking is about The Trees! Now that I've gained some understanding of the only world that we see, I'm Finding My Way. Perhaps when I'm done bushwacking these lesser peaks, I'll do another 4000-footer and will bid a (wait for it) Farewell to King Ravine. Shining stars on summer nights!

Stinkyfeet said:

However, when I completed those lists over 20 years ago (!), there were no discernible herd paths to peaks like Vose Spur or any of the other bushwhacks that I can remember except for Nancy and Peak Above the Nubble, the latter which had a recently, illegally cut path to the summit which Gene Daniell absolutely FORBADE! anyone from using.

And yes, I realize I was part of the "problem" of developing herd paths by pursuing said lists.

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Now we're getting somewhere...I'm sure there was also frustration back then that some lists were not readily accessible to everyone. In fact it was even harder to get these lists back then (the NH200 for instance). I'm also sure the complaint then was also that nobody would be interested in doing these new peaks anyway because they were obscure and they involved bushwhacking and blah blah blah (hell, you had to deal with private property as well!). You do the math : these more or less new lists were even less accessible back then and it still created a discernable impact. Imagine if everyone had had the lists...

Everyone that does these peaks do have an impact but you can lessen it by not posting lists for the whole world to see. The goal is not to forbid sharing and kill everyone's fun...I'm just surprised that we are still underestimating the power of the WORLD WIDE WEB. So let me laugh when I read something like :

rocket21 said:

I think this thread illustrates why it is so great that Ed, Bryan, and Eric made the lists available

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{Note: There are no purposeful Rush references in this post}

Back on topic a bit, I'm trying to look at this thread objectively. I do not yet have an strong opinion one way or the other on the publication of these lists and its pros and cons. So, I'm going to try to objectively run through a scenario focused solely on impact.

To give some framework to this and for those who do not know me, I hike about 50 mountains a year in the WMNF primarily and average two weekends a month. About 50% of the hikes are list-driven (Grid, TW, Round 5, few 52WAV). I'm truly a half-assed list hiker.

Hypothetically Speaking:

Let's assume I decide I'm going to hike the NH300 now. I have the list. There's a patch. Fresh territory. Maybe I'm driven to be one of the first 100 people to do it, so I'm going to focus on it. Before I do, I am likely going to finish the goals I am working toward. Say I finish the grid for example. Now I start on the NH300. For each hike I take on a new mountain, there is one less person on an NH48 (me). My time has shifted to new mountains, leaving a space where I had been for someone new. In that sense, there is some balance. Admittedly, much of my impact to an untrailed mountain will be more than the impact lost from the NH48 I am not hiking. It's probably not an equal exchange in the sense of erosion, impact to more pristine/less traveled areas, etc. However the loss of a few people off Franconia Ridge spread out to other, new areas also has its benefits (at least to Franconia Ridge).

Another factor I have not seen mentioned is that maybe we each are having more of an impact. I think in general, the average hiker is doing more miles than in the past. Better conditioning and better conditions, lighter gear, better technology/more sense of security out there have allowed us to go further. One hiker in the past averaged fewer miles than one today I suspect. This is at least what I have seen over my time. There are many more people doing 15-50 mile days out there now. I'm one of them occasionally, as are many on VFTT.

I see the NH48 getting busier all the time. We all do. The NH48 list has a lot to do with this as does the simple fact that AMC, Meetups, VFTT and other hiking related sites, and all other groups out there are providing a lot of opportunities/info/motivation for people to hike that were never available before. It's not all about the NH48 list, but most hikes are centered on or around the 4,000 footers. People that would have never gone out and hiked in the mountains can now find a group of people willing to accompany them. Again, there are real benefits here as well as some negative impacts from more people.

As for those gridding, it's not a HUGE number I imagine, but there are more and more of them as well (I'm one of them). The impact is entirely focused on the NH48. Maybe there are more of us sticking around after the NH48 than there used to be. I went on for the NEHH ('95) and W48 before starting current lists. With the grid, our impact continues on the NH48 at the same time all the new people are doing their first rounds. There are also some benefits to spreading that impact out and having some new areas to hike, I suppose. We are all part of the problem, and the fact is that hiking in the mountains is in an upswing right now, a big one in NH anyway. We can't fight against that river. Having a few new lists with new summits shared with people will have an impact on those mountains, but there also seems to be a good reason to believe that moving more people out of the 4,000 footers would spread impact. I will hope that those who pursue the NH200 and NH300 will be of sufficient experience to understand and practice LNT, even though herd paths may form like on the NEHH. Part of my point is that I would not expect anyone to begin by hiking the NH200 and NH300; there's a certain order to some degree anyway that makes sense.

It's an interesting question for sure, especially since I (and again, many of us here) fit the profile of the hiker that considers this very kind of thing. Those of us that opt to do these lists may be the ones having the new impact to the NH200/300, but it would also pull some people off many NH48 summits every year.

By-tor

@Maineman, Tuck, --M. Nice work! "Rushian"...that's great...and love the Lakeside Park reference. FYI - There are 21 Rush song references in post #81.

Motabobo said:

Everyone that does these peaks do have an impact but you can lessen it by not posting lists for the whole world to see. The goal is not to forbid sharing and kill everyone's fun...I'm just surprised that we are still underestimating the power of the WORLD WIDE WEB. So let me laugh when I read something like :

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I'm struggling to parse this post. "Those who have already hiked the peaks had an impact, but it is reduced by not sharing the data. The goal is to share data. Those who obtain lists posted on the internet have more of an impact on the peaks than those who obtained the list via secret backchannel communications."

rocket21 said:

I'm struggling to parse this post. "Those who have already hiked the peaks had an impact, but it is reduced by not sharing the data. The goal is to share data. Those who obtain lists posted on the internet have more of an impact on the peaks than those who obtained the list via secret backchannel communications."

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You've almost got it, I think, but I'd change it around slightly to read:

Those who share lists by posting them on public websites have more of an impact on the peaks than those who share them in interpersonal exchanges.

rocket21 said:

Never got an answer? Did you contact them?

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Bryan is a member of this group and has been on several times since

Apparently you are Ed's official envoy so you can tell him

Or I can suggest another alternative

My understanding is that you have a website and can post whatever you want on it. We could ask the hiking community through polls on VFTT what objective criteria should be used for such a list, make a correct list according to those criteria, and post the list along with the criteria used with the understanding that it would be altered if errors were found. That way no action by Ed or Bryan would be required.

Motabobo said:

I'm also sure the complaint then was also that nobody would be interested in doing these new peaks anyway because they were obscure and they involved bushwhacking and blah blah blah (hell, you had to deal with private property as well!).

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One version of that is that some private property owners don't like publicity and others fear liability lawsuits, posting a list might cause some people to close previously-open property (remember TB and his map?) as would inexperienced people getting lost and calling for help.

A guy I know managed to obtain access to a large tract of private land in NH that had been closed to the public for decades. I warned people to keep this off the Internet especially searchable words or it might be closed again, but some people felt that posting trip reports was a public good. Apparently a board member read about this and the property was closed until the board could discuss it and as far as I know it's still closed - if you know different please leave off the name of the place in your response That actually applies to this note as a NH300 list would include 2 or 3 peaks on this property.

See Post #61 in that "Mob Scenes..." thread under General Backcountry. Bowling would resolve this dilemma also.

TEO said:

Those who share lists by posting them on public websites have more of an impact on the peaks than those who share them in interpersonal exchanges.

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That's exactly it, thank you I hope I'm allowed to suggest one minor change even though my English is not right up there. Replace "interpersonal exchanges" by "secret backchannel communications" because that defines better anything other than a public webpage, forum, etc.

Good additional point about private property Roy. I was attempting in my earlier post to say that even some of the NE100 were on private property "some years ago".

RoySwkr said:

Bryan is a member of this group and has been on several times since

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I think Bryan mainly posts conditions reports at this juncture. I could be wrong, but I don't think he's posted anywhere in this thread.

RoySwkr said:

Apparently you are Ed's official envoy so you can tell him

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That is incorrect.

RoySwkr said:

My understanding is that you have a website and can post whatever you want on it. We could ask the hiking community through polls on VFTT what objective criteria should be used for such a list, make a correct list according to those criteria, and post the list along with the criteria used with the understanding that it would be altered if errors were found. That way no action by Ed or Bryan would be required.

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My understanding is that you've hiked a version of the 300, that you've researched the peaks, and that you think some peaks should be added. You have the same posting access on VFTT that I have, so it's up to you if you want to post what peaks you think are missing, or post a poll, etc. I'm not working the 200 or 300 list at this time, so it doesn't have a huge impact on me either way.

rocket21 said:

I'm not working the 200 or 300 list at this time, so it doesn't have a huge impact on me either way.

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So then may I ask what was your motivation for the OP? It may not be impacting you but maybe it is impacting others. Part of what is being discussed here is whether or not information on these elusive list should be posted on the Internet or not. I would assume that you find it your duty not only to patrol the canisters on peaks that are on lists that you are not in pursuit of; but to also make sure the whole world has access to the information on those lists. Correct me if I am wrong.

skiguy said:

So then may I ask what was your motivation for the OP? It may not be impacting you but maybe it is impacting others. Part of what is being discussed here is whether or not information on these elusive list should be posted on the Internet or not. I would assume that you find it your duty not only to patrol the canisters on peaks that are on lists that you are not in pursuit of; but to also make sure the whole world has access to the information on those lists. Correct me if I am wrong.

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I've never seen you question someone else for posting an e-mail announcement on here, or question the motivations of every peak an individual climbs, but cheers for publicly calling my motivations in question rather than your previous method, when you issued red squares.

rocket21 said:

I've never seen you question someone else for posting an e-mail announcement on here, or question the motivations of every peak an individual climbs, but cheers for publicly calling my motivations in question rather than your previous method, when you issued red squares.

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Sorry if you cannot answer my question. Not meant to have been a personal attack like this post. My question was only meant to add some clarity to your OP and the thread.

rocket21 said:

cheers for publicly calling my motivations in question

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I think it is a legitimate question, if you do something of a public nature, what's wrong in publicly asking the motivation to do so?

skiguy said:

Sorry if you cannot answer my question. Not meant to have been a personal attack like this post. My question was only meant to add some clarity to your OP and the thread.

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Motabobo said:

I think it is a legitimate question, if you do something of a public nature, what's wrong in publicly asking the motivation to do so?

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Pretty simple...an e-mail of interest to the hiking community was sent to a distribution list that I'm a member of. Golly, the thread started of in a positive manner too.

I'm reminded of this recent thread about another list. Let's see:
- the first post was pasted from an e-mail from the same person.
- the list includes many bushwhack peaks.
- the list includes peaks on private property.
- in fact, there are quite a few overlaps between that list and the NH 300 list.

I was shocked, I tell ya, shocked, when I realized your consistent criticism of the poster of an e-mail and the impact on a list on the peaks was nowhere to be found.

Motabobo said:

Good additional point about private property Roy. I was attempting in my earlier post to say that even some of the NE100 were on private property "some years ago".

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Many of the NE100 are still on private property, and homeland security issues have multiplied

At one time the AMC did not have an official NH100 list supposedly because of private property issues, but with vast ownership changes in the North Country there are now only a couple depending on the list version not protected by easement. They have now tried to post a list but it's so full of inconsistencies that I don't really consider it viable.

rocket21 said:

I'm reminded of this recent thread about another list. Let's see:
- the first post was pasted from an e-mail from the same person.
- the list includes many bushwhack peaks.
- the list includes peaks on private property.
- in fact, there are quite a few overlaps between that list and the NH 300 list.

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And yes, I duly registered my complaints there about posting an inaccurate [NH fire tower] list without checking with knowledgeable people first, and corrections are slow to be made

rocket21 said:

My understanding is that you've hiked a version of the 300, that you've researched the peaks, and that you think some peaks should be added. You have the same posting access on VFTT that I have, so it's up to you if you want to post what peaks you think are missing, or post a poll, etc. I'm not working the 200 or 300 list at this time, so it doesn't have a huge impact on me either way.

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I have hiked several versions of the NH300 and there is no particular reason to call any one of them correct, my complaints with the list Bryan made is that it contains many elevation errors and the peaks were not selected by any consistent criteria. What peaks should be added and removed depends on the criteria you use, i.e. should you allow Canadian peaks? It makes sense to me to let a group select the criteria.

There is little reason to develop a list unless it has a permanent home, and after the fire tower list issues I have no reason to believe that Ed will post it if submitted.

You seem to have used this note chiefly to bash so-called select cabals and the views they espouse, although they are no more select than VFTT which once required knowing a member to join, membership limited numerically, and a moderator who removed members he disagreed with, and apparently some of the notes you most disliked were posted by somebody who is also a member of VFTT. If you don't care anyway and don't want to help, maybe it's time for you to leave it alone.