kmac
Active member
I don't get it? What makes you different from all the other hikers on the summit? Maybe they were not enjoying your company either.
Mob scenes on the trails last weekend
- Thread starter B the Hiker
- Start date
Help Support vftt.org:
Stan
Well-known member
I don't mind all the dogs on top of Lafayette. It's that they're all yowling into their cell phones that makes me rush on by.
trailbagger
New member
I found this excerpt in the Spring 2011 edition of The New England Journal of Hiking Psychology, in an article titled “Patterns of Trail Usage and Long Term Impacts”:
Stage 1: A New England hiker is created when an outdoor-loving person, who is goal-oriented and enjoys collecting things, discovers the 4000-footer list. The discovery usually leads to the passionate pursuit of the 48 peaks via the easiest/most-direct trails, since most new hikers need to build up strength and experience before tackling longer routes. The easy/direct trails take the brunt of the load.
Stage 2: The hiker finishes the NH4K list and is left with post-completion depression. The only cure is to begin another list. Often, the depression is so severe that multiple new lists are started concurrently, including the NE4K, NEHH and the winter NH4K, all of which are rewarded with patches and memberships by the AMC. Hikers in Stage 2 have little impact on the primary trail system, which is protected in winter, but do impact the trail-less peaks through the creation of herd paths.
Stage 3: A hiker who has completed most or all of the premier lists is at Stage 3. This stage is the subject of much current research. The steady-state theory requires that Stage 2 hikers abandon the easy/direct trails to the 4K peaks, and begin using the wider trail network in an effort to hike every trail; an activity known as Red-Lining. This shift in usage allows room for the next generation of Stage 1 hikers. Alternatively, a Stage 3 hiker may leave the trail network altogether in pursuit of one or more lists based on trail-less peaks, a variant of hiking known as Bushwhacking. In either case, the load on the primary trails is greatly reduced, and a balance is achieved.
Recently, however, the steady-state theory has come under attack due to the discovery of a previously unobserved Stage 3 behavior, known as Grid Hiking. The Grid Hiker, as he or she is currently understood, continues to hike the primary trails in an effort to reach the NH4k peaks in every month of the year. Considered a form of arrested development, Grid Hiking greatly increases the load on the primary trails while not making room for Stage 1 hikers, leading to overcrowding. In extreme cases, a Grid Hiker will complete the Grid and immediately start doing it over again; there are documented cases where this obsessive-compulsive behavior has led a Grid hiker to repeat the entire Grid as many as five times!
Some models predict that if Grid Hiking overtakes Red-Lining and Bushwhacking , in sufficient time the secondary trails will be abandoned, forcing all hikers onto the primary trails (or into the bush), and leading to such accelerated erosion that many of the current 4K peaks will actually drop below 4000 feet in elevation. This eventuality would reduce the number of 4K peaks on the list, and would transfer even greater load to the trails reaching the remaining 4K peaks, resulting in a cascade of list revisions and catastrophic erosion. However, these predictions are at best speculative.
Unfortunately, the remainder of the article seems to have been torn out of my copy.
Stage 1: A New England hiker is created when an outdoor-loving person, who is goal-oriented and enjoys collecting things, discovers the 4000-footer list. The discovery usually leads to the passionate pursuit of the 48 peaks via the easiest/most-direct trails, since most new hikers need to build up strength and experience before tackling longer routes. The easy/direct trails take the brunt of the load.
Stage 2: The hiker finishes the NH4K list and is left with post-completion depression. The only cure is to begin another list. Often, the depression is so severe that multiple new lists are started concurrently, including the NE4K, NEHH and the winter NH4K, all of which are rewarded with patches and memberships by the AMC. Hikers in Stage 2 have little impact on the primary trail system, which is protected in winter, but do impact the trail-less peaks through the creation of herd paths.
Stage 3: A hiker who has completed most or all of the premier lists is at Stage 3. This stage is the subject of much current research. The steady-state theory requires that Stage 2 hikers abandon the easy/direct trails to the 4K peaks, and begin using the wider trail network in an effort to hike every trail; an activity known as Red-Lining. This shift in usage allows room for the next generation of Stage 1 hikers. Alternatively, a Stage 3 hiker may leave the trail network altogether in pursuit of one or more lists based on trail-less peaks, a variant of hiking known as Bushwhacking. In either case, the load on the primary trails is greatly reduced, and a balance is achieved.
Recently, however, the steady-state theory has come under attack due to the discovery of a previously unobserved Stage 3 behavior, known as Grid Hiking. The Grid Hiker, as he or she is currently understood, continues to hike the primary trails in an effort to reach the NH4k peaks in every month of the year. Considered a form of arrested development, Grid Hiking greatly increases the load on the primary trails while not making room for Stage 1 hikers, leading to overcrowding. In extreme cases, a Grid Hiker will complete the Grid and immediately start doing it over again; there are documented cases where this obsessive-compulsive behavior has led a Grid hiker to repeat the entire Grid as many as five times!
Some models predict that if Grid Hiking overtakes Red-Lining and Bushwhacking , in sufficient time the secondary trails will be abandoned, forcing all hikers onto the primary trails (or into the bush), and leading to such accelerated erosion that many of the current 4K peaks will actually drop below 4000 feet in elevation. This eventuality would reduce the number of 4K peaks on the list, and would transfer even greater load to the trails reaching the remaining 4K peaks, resulting in a cascade of list revisions and catastrophic erosion. However, these predictions are at best speculative.
Unfortunately, the remainder of the article seems to have been torn out of my copy.
Raymond
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2003
- Messages
- 1,536
- Reaction score
- 59
By George, I think you’ve got it.
I’m still at the stage of taking alternate trails. My last two hikes have seen my first two forays into the Great Gulf, for instance.
I’m still at the stage of taking alternate trails. My last two hikes have seen my first two forays into the Great Gulf, for instance.
sierra
Well-known member
I fall into a different group. after the 4k's, I just hiked 4k's with no list. But, my main goal was to climb higher peaks, not lower peaks, as in 14ers, 13ers and such.
Scubahhh
Member
I guess you just need to pick your trails. I walked a beautiful sction of the SRKG from New London to Andover last weekend, and saw more bears than humans.
You-know-you-are-NOT-a-peakbagger-when
You-know-you-are-a-peakbagger-when
Thought these my be worth bringing up
Tim
You-know-you-are-a-peakbagger-when
Thought these my be worth bringing up
Tim
Tom Rankin
Well-known member
Exactly! We are all part of the problem! Deal with it! I find it ironic that 'we' are on this board being social, but 'we' don't like crowds.
Neil
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2004
- Messages
- 3,434
- Reaction score
- 487
On a forum I can pick and choose among what's available including when, where and with who I come into contact. I can turn off the speakers too! My wife doesn't mind crowds one bit but I prefer not encountering them when I'm hiking, fully cognizant that I'm a part of that crowd. It doesn't ruin anything for me but given the choice I'll avoid them.I find it ironic that 'we' are on this board being social, but 'we' don't like crowds.
I love humanity. It's people I can't stand.
TCD
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2004
- Messages
- 2,067
- Reaction score
- 136
Exactly! We are all part of the problem! Deal with it! I find it ironic that 'we' are on this board being social, but 'we' don't like crowds.
Thanks, Tom. Irony is the underlying theme here, and it's quite entertaining. You highlight well the irony of "I'm OK, but the rest of these people are an annoying crowd."
There's a further irony that always appears in these threads. Visitors are extremely concentrated on trails. Of course trails are a TINY sliver of the wild lands that are DESIGNED and INTENDED to concentrate the visitor use. And yet we go to that tiny sliver, and then complain about the concentration of visitors.
Neil
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2004
- Messages
- 3,434
- Reaction score
- 487
Tom, similar topology to the intestines, are the trails inside or outside looking into the wilderness?Of course trails are a TINY sliver of the wild lands that are DESIGNED and INTENDED to concentrate the visitor use. And yet we go to that tiny sliver, and then complain about the concentration of visitors.
Raven
Well-known member
Exactly! We are all part of the problem! Deal with it! I find it ironic that 'we' are on this board being social, but 'we' don't like crowds.
I agree if you are part of the crowd, then yes, you are part of any overcrowding problem.
For the discussion however, I'll just point out that there is an underlying assumption here in the thread that is not true (in the general discussion though, not specifically a comment you made, Tom).
Not all of us have the same need for solitude and may have very different threshold levels for what we consider overcrowded. My point is that seeing 500 people for example along Franconia Ridge may be detrimental to the solitude of some, it does not represent a problem for others, and to take it further, for some people, it's actually reassuring and they enjoy the social aspect of hiking. I am one in the first category who seeks to avoid popular trails when I go to the mountains - solitude is one of the primary reasons I go. I would be willing to argue that people who sign up for groups knowing they will have 10-30 people may not care as much about this issue as those who choose to hike solo. No judgment either way, just an observation. I very much value the interaction with nature and the natural world. For me, I find that becomes increasingly difficult with increasing numbers of people.
I also accept reality. I don't look for solitude on the summit of Lafayette or Eisenhower on a beautiful summer Saturday afternoon. If I want to avoid the crowds, I can do it.
However, every once in a while, like when Saturn is in retrograde, I get a kick out of hiking with the crowds.
I enjoyed hiking with 769 people a few weekends back. I used it as an opportunity to work on Gryffin's greeting skills. I know many families with kids enjoyed meeting him as much as he enjoyed meeting them. As with many things we discuss (or complain about) here, it's all about setting expectations properly.
Tim
Tim
marnof
New member
As a friend of mine likes to say, "It is what it is," and that sums it up pretty well.
My first experience with hiking in the White Mountains was around 1987, a hike up the Falling Waters trail with my future wife. An absolutely beautiful hike, especially when stopping to enjoy the falls on the way up. When we reached Haystack, I was first impressed with all the people gathered around, talking or eating lunch. It was almost club-like. I took some photos of the people, and then of course the amazing, sweeping vistas.
Since then I've been primarily a solo hiker, although I try to take my girls on a hike or two each year. We've been on empty summits and crowded ones, and enjoyed them all. That being said, it can be somewhat anticlimactic, after hiking through the wilds, to reach a summit that resembles a shopping mall food court bustling with people.
From looking around, it appears that the amount of first-time peakbaggers is increasing quickly, driven by social media's lure of adventure and internet fame. I'm very glad, overall, that more people are getting outdoors and taking in all that the White Mountains has to offer. It's such a positive thing for society. The downside is the increased trash; having to wait in line in order to approach the summit marker; having to hear people's conversations bellowed loudly in your ears while you take in the sweeping vistas -- general over-crowding issues. I'd like to downplay them and say they don't bother me, but in fact it's a little sad. I do enjoy crowds and social events, though, in a different setting. I go to a lot of concerts and have a great time meeting people. I'm talking Rush concerts. Ged, Al and the Professor. I've just never said to myself or someone else, "Let's hike to the top of the mountain in the wilderness, and hang out with hordes of people!" OK, maybe when I went to keggers in high school, but not lately.
Yes, it is what it is. There's nothing to be done about it, besides making some potentially draconian regulation. We take the good with the bad. We learn to love it.
My first experience with hiking in the White Mountains was around 1987, a hike up the Falling Waters trail with my future wife. An absolutely beautiful hike, especially when stopping to enjoy the falls on the way up. When we reached Haystack, I was first impressed with all the people gathered around, talking or eating lunch. It was almost club-like. I took some photos of the people, and then of course the amazing, sweeping vistas.
Since then I've been primarily a solo hiker, although I try to take my girls on a hike or two each year. We've been on empty summits and crowded ones, and enjoyed them all. That being said, it can be somewhat anticlimactic, after hiking through the wilds, to reach a summit that resembles a shopping mall food court bustling with people.
From looking around, it appears that the amount of first-time peakbaggers is increasing quickly, driven by social media's lure of adventure and internet fame. I'm very glad, overall, that more people are getting outdoors and taking in all that the White Mountains has to offer. It's such a positive thing for society. The downside is the increased trash; having to wait in line in order to approach the summit marker; having to hear people's conversations bellowed loudly in your ears while you take in the sweeping vistas -- general over-crowding issues. I'd like to downplay them and say they don't bother me, but in fact it's a little sad. I do enjoy crowds and social events, though, in a different setting. I go to a lot of concerts and have a great time meeting people. I'm talking Rush concerts.
Ged, Al and the Professor. I've just never said to myself or someone else, "Let's hike to the top of the mountain in the wilderness, and hang out with hordes of people!" OK, maybe when I went to keggers in high school, but not lately. Yes, it is what it is. There's nothing to be done about it, besides making some potentially draconian regulation. We take the good with the bad. We learn to love it.
"Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" The crowds aren't going anywhere unless we have another oil embargo, the whites adopts the BSP approach or some sort of permit system is put in place. Unfortunately we are not in control of other peoples decisions so if you want or need solitude, its time to swap to a more obscure list that doesn't include 4ks and stop going to the popular summits or shifting your schedule to minimize the crowds.
I can highly recommend the Horn, Rogers Ledge, Signal Mountain, Mt Success, Mt Carlo, Mt Goose eye, The Baldpates via Frye brook, The Sunday River Whitecap and others will have few visitors over the next few weeks. Of course most are an extra hour to an hour and a half from Mass which is one of the reasons they will not get much use.
I can highly recommend the Horn, Rogers Ledge, Signal Mountain, Mt Success, Mt Carlo, Mt Goose eye, The Baldpates via Frye brook, The Sunday River Whitecap and others will have few visitors over the next few weeks. Of course most are an extra hour to an hour and a half from Mass which is one of the reasons they will not get much use.
sierra
Well-known member
A permit system or anything even close to BSP would be a travesty, I could not live with at all. I refuse to go to BSP because of thier regs. I have not had an issue with crowds this year at all. Some hikes Ive seen a decent number of people, but not that bad. Granted I stay off FR and only do IKe during the week.
New Hampshire will never institute a permit system. Tourism is too important. Where you and I see "crowds" they see "dollars".
Tim
Tim
Agreed - I would be very surprised if they tried to limit hikers with permits. What is more likely IMO would be charging for parking during peak times to softly push people towards other destinations. $3 seems to be the breaking point for a lot of people.
There is a difference, I would suggest, between a trail or summit being "crowded" and the same being crowded beyond their capacity to handle the people. A light reading of the latter is the parking problem in Franconia Notch, with cars in both lanes extending up and down I-93.
But the bigger issue is when the trails become effectively un-hikeable due to the sheer numbers of people. Is this ever a problem? I imagine it must get quite slow-going on the Falling Waters Trail, although I haven't noticed it on the Kinsman side, even during times of extreme numbers of cars parked.
On a different note, I solo hiked the last two days, which I rarely do, and I have to admit I found a certain level of comfort in seeing other people on the trails. What struck me was how many people on the lower ends of the Stoney Brook and Glen Boulder trails who didn't know where they were: they were just casual people who saw a trailhead and decided to hike up it! Not too far, and not far enough to get themselves into trouble. It was kind of refreshing, seeing families in their jeans and flip flops asking me what was up ahead, "more rocks and trees, but it's nice to be outside" was my response, and I think for most of them, it really was.
Brian
But the bigger issue is when the trails become effectively un-hikeable due to the sheer numbers of people. Is this ever a problem? I imagine it must get quite slow-going on the Falling Waters Trail, although I haven't noticed it on the Kinsman side, even during times of extreme numbers of cars parked.
On a different note, I solo hiked the last two days, which I rarely do, and I have to admit I found a certain level of comfort in seeing other people on the trails. What struck me was how many people on the lower ends of the Stoney Brook and Glen Boulder trails who didn't know where they were: they were just casual people who saw a trailhead and decided to hike up it! Not too far, and not far enough to get themselves into trouble. It was kind of refreshing, seeing families in their jeans and flip flops asking me what was up ahead, "more rocks and trees, but it's nice to be outside" was my response, and I think for most of them, it really was.
Brian
Similar threads
