Vapor Barrier Socks

Does anyone on VFTT use vapor barrier socks? I have huge problems in winter with cold feet and hands. Last winter I started wearing those disposable surgical gloves as a "base layer"" for my hands and was super impressed with the added warmth it provided with even a lightweight glove. They quickly became standard equipment for me on winter hikes.

I had a lot of problems with my winter boots last year. Went with two different models and from what I can gather the insulation compresses and the fit became poor, gave me nasty blisters, etc. So I was thinking of trying an uninsulated boot and a vapor barrier sock system like these mentioned on Section Hiker:
http://sectionhiker.com/vapor-barrier-socks/

Curious if anyone does this, the comfort level, warmth, etc. or alternatively how to properly purchase a winter boot so the insulation doesn't compress (i.e. do you buy them much tighter than normal and break in, was it just because I had cheap boots that insulation broke down so fast, etc). Thanks in advance for any info.

I tried them years ago and did not care for the clammy feeling they gave my feet. I stick too modern boots that are both gore-tex lined and insulated ( Lasportiva Lhotsee's). These boots are not cheap coming in around 375.00, but I can justify the cost climbing every week. I never scimp on boots. VB socks can help in inferior boots as they will keep your boots dryer and your socks for that matter, but in that application your pushing the limits of your boots verses just getting adequate boots imo. Sounds to me like yourt using a cheap boot and trying to make it perform better, I wouldnt.

from what i understand, vb can add 25 degrees warmth to ur boots. one time i went out running in the snow on the franconia bike path. it was 5 degrees out. i wore hiking socks, vb, and sneakers. i ran for about an hour. my feet were not cold at all. stephenson's warmlite has a lot of vb stuff, including vb socks with their 'fuzzy stuff' lining so ur feet supposedly dont get clammy. their web site is worth checking out just for the sheer trippiness of it. you absolutely wont be left wondering what that guy thinks of anything.

Search on this site, and you should find some more details as it's come up enough. I will weigh in, though...I love them.

The boots I weare are unlined, leather boots with no Gore-Tex. I wear them with bare feet, just the VBLs, and rarely have a problem with cold feet. If I'm moving all day, even with short breaks, I'm exerting enough so the VBLs are working. I don't wear them overnight...get into camp and change them out. The boots will be dry on the inside, and the VBLs will dry just by the air. If it's super cold, I'll slide them between my mats at night to dry them.

I'm a firm believer in always wearing the same sock combinations in your boots, as they break in a certain way so consistency helps.

My boots are Salomons, but I don't believe they make them any longer.

I'm a sweaty hands and feet person. In the summer, I wear completely breathable trail runners, can't even deal with the Gore-Tex lined ones. In winter, I'll soak out my boot insulation: feel perfectly comfortable for 5 hours or so, then the feet freeze and when I take the boots off, water pours out. So I, too, do exam gloves on the hands (then liner gloves, then mitts as necessary), and feet are liner socks, vapor barrier (Integral Designs), heavy sock, then full-waterproof boots (Sorels or Koflachs). My feet honestly aren't any wetter than they'd be without the VBL, it just doesn't get out to the insulation. This does mean for backpacking I don't do a sleeping bag VBL and I wipe the feet off before bed.

I have tried them on and off plus use the plastic bags on occasion. The do work well keeping the insulating layer dry but at some point unless you are wearing plastic boots, most winter boots will start getting wet from the outside and then they lose their effectiveness. I do not like the one size fits most designs as there are a lot of extra material. RBH Designs http://www.rbhdesigns.com/ makes custom sized VBLs that may be a nice option but expect that your boots need to be upsized to account for the extra layer.

peakbagger said:

I have tried them on and off plus use the plastic bags on occasion. The do work well keeping the insulating layer dry but at some point unless you are wearing plastic boots, most winter boots will start getting wet from the outside and then they lose their effectiveness. I do not like the one size fits most designs as there are a lot of extra material. RBH Designs http://www.rbhdesigns.com/ makes custom sized VBLs that may be a nice option but expect that your boots need to be upsized to account for the extra layer.

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With a good pair of waterproof winter boots and appropriate pants/gaiters, the moisture acquisition will be 100% from sweat, and 0% from the outside. I've had some great luck in my experiments with vapor barriers on my feet. If the barrier is right against my skin, what I find is that my sweat shuts down once my skin gets moist--so I sweat much less using a barrier than I do without one. And because my boot insulation ands socks stay dry, my feet stay warm throughout a sub-zero day.

In the absence of readily available 'exam gloves for feet', what I've found work best are grocery produce bags. They kill 2 birds with one stone. First, they're so thin that extra material and all, they take up no space in the boot, which eliminates the downside of the 'extra material'. And second, they put the barrier right against my skin, which causes the 'sweat shutdown' at the earliest possible point. And as a bonus, I love how easy the sox slide on over them. The only challenge is that they're delicate, which requires me to be careful how I position them on my feet, as well as to carry a few backups.

Alex

I'm a big fan of vapor barriers on my feet as well. No other method keeps my feet as warm. I agree with everything Alex wrote, although I've never put them right next to my skin; I've had the best luck having a pair of thick socks (Smartwool) next to my skin, then produce bags, then boots. I usually just leave my socks on until bed time, and then dry them in my sleeping bag at night - this seems to occur quite rapidly with the help of a hot water bottle or two in the bottom of my sleeping bag. On a couple of occassions I've changed socks upon arriving at my camping destination, and then dried those socks in my sleeping bag at night. I've never found them to be particularly wet, no more so than when I've not used vapor barriers. Still, I think I'll try the bags right next to my skin and see if that's even better. As an added bonus, beyond warmth I also find this vapor barrier system prevents blisters by providing a smooth, low friction surface between my feet and boots.

DayTrip said:

how to properly purchase a winter boot so the insulation doesn't compress (i.e. do you buy them much tighter than normal and break in, was it just because I had cheap boots that insulation broke down so fast, etc).

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I get along fine with a pair of lightweight mountaineering boots (Salomon SM Lite, non-insulated and no Gore-Tex), with a thin Coolmax liner sock and heavier wool sock. My boots are slightly larger than my normal size to allow for the extra sock thickness. I also wear enough insulated clothing so that blood flow to my extremities is not reduced. That makes a big difference.

It sounds like you bought cheap boots and are looking for a cheap solution that will keep your feet warm. Good luck.

jfb said:

I get along fine with a pair of lightweight mountaineering boots (Salomon SM Lite, non-insulated and no Gore-Tex), with a thin Coolmax liner sock and heavier wool sock. My boots are slightly larger than my normal size to allow for the extra sock thickness. I also wear enough insulated clothing so that blood flow to my extremities is not reduced. That makes a big difference.

It sounds like you bought cheap boots and are looking for a cheap solution that will keep your feet warm. Good luck.

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I've tried a few brands. My feet are cold all the time in winter, not just hiking. I also have a hell of a time finding a boot that fits me well because of my foot shape so footwear is always a problem for me. I don't mind spending money on what works but I also find the most expensive solution isn't always the best solution either. With prices of these socks in the $30-$50 range (at least the brands I've looked at) it seems worth investigating.

And more directly to your point because no one has answered it, does insulation in a high end boot not collapse the way an inexpensive boot does? I've never owned a true winter boot until two years ago and neither pair I've gone with has worked out for me. I'd like to know if this is "normal" so I can take into account on my next purchase.

DayTrip said:

I've tried a few brands. My feet are cold all the time in winter, not just hiking. I also have a hell of a time finding a boot that fits me well because of my foot shape so footwear is always a problem for me. I don't mind spending money on what works but I also find the most expensive solution isn't always the best solution either. With prices of these socks in the $30-$50 range (at least the brands I've looked at) it seems worth investigating.

And more directly to your point because no one has answered it, does insulation in a high end boot not collapse the way an inexpensive boot does? I've never owned a true winter boot until two years ago and neither pair I've gone with has worked out for me. I'd like to know if this is "normal" so I can take into account on my next purchase.

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I have no experience with feet that stay cold all winter, so I probably cannot provide any useful advice in that area.

Perhaps others can evaluate your boots, if you let them know what brand and model boots you had trouble with.

My Koflach Verticals are going on 11 years old and the inner boot is holding up fine (with the exception of the lace eyelets starting to pull out) with little significant compression of the inner boot. I remember when I got them the salesperson (at a little mom and pop store - they knew their $hit) told me the inners in the Verticals and Arctic Expes were much better than in the Degres. That may not be true anymore, but my point is that I think there is a big difference in the quality of the inner boot among plastic double boots and it makes a big difference. So do some homework before your next purchase. (Note: EVERYONE I know who is moderately serious about this winter hiking thing has gone through several pairs of boots in their first few years before landing on something that works. I went through 2 pairs of others before landing on the Verticals.) I'll be in the market again before too long too, so share what you find!

jfb said:

Perhaps others can evaluate your boots, if you let them know what brand and model boots you had trouble with.

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My current boots are Vasque, although I do not recall the model. I believe they had 100g of insulation and I bought because they were extremely comfortable....were. Now they are very loose and I destroy my feet in them, especially descending. I think my previous boot may have been a Timberland model. They were actually not bad but I had bought them for a different purpose and they were too loose for comfortable hiking. I really don't know what is considered to be the "good brands" for winter hiking. Someone had recommended Lowa on another group I am on but other than that I have no reference point.

What are everyone's thoughts on a plastic/mountaineering boot versus a "regular" Gore-Tex type boot for the winter? I day hike, no overnights. Do the plastic boots not compress? Are they warmer? What is it that I am getting versus a regular boot for the additional money? They are considerably more expensive.

If you check out www.backcountry.com and moosejaw.com, and search for mountaineering boots, you'll find a variety of warm boots. Some of them would be overkill for winter dayhikes, but many of them would be suitable for what you're looking for. I would avoid snowmobile and ice fishing-type boots for serious hiking.

DayTrip: The "boot discussion" is a big one, but here is a primer on some considerations when purchasing boots for winter hiking. Note that this is a nuanced discussion with a large number of variables; it is difficult to visit all possible scenarios here on VFTT. That said:
1. Double plastic mountaineering boots ARE warmer. For most people, this added warmth is only relevent when a lot of standing around is likely (i.e. backpacking, during cooking and such). If you expect to be moving most of the time, then high quality SLI (single-layer insulated) boots are perfectly reasonable. There is a very broad range of quality available with SLI's, buyer beware. Some well-regarded options are listed below.
2. With double plastics, the liner can be removed and kept in a sleeping bag to prevent freezing overnight. Only relevent if you are backpacking.
3. Double plastics are step-in crampon compatible. This type of crampon is faster to put on and take off than strap-ons, and in conjunction with double plastics generally offers better stability. This is relevant when the terrain and conditions get more challenging (relevent on only a few trails in the Whites - Lion head winter, some of the slides). As for the speed component, this should not be overlooked if exposed traverses (i.e. Presi-traverse, etc) are likely in your future: if you're getting blasted by wind, you want to get your pack off, get your 'pons on and get moving again in minimal time and without taking off your gloves.
4. Many (though definitely not all) people find SLI's to be more comfortable than double plastics. Some people have worn plastics once and flat refuse to wear them ever again. For the rest of their lives. If the future of humanity depended on it. On hard packed trails, relatively flat terrain, and in snow shoes, the majority of people find SLI's or other softer boots (such as Sorels) to be more comfortable.
5. Double plastics cost quite a lot more than SLI's.
6. Some consider double plastics "safer" because of the added warmth in the case that a group member is injured and a lot of standing around is required. Considering the relative rarity of this scenario, I don't consider this to be a significant factor in deciding what boot to buy, but there are varied and strong opinions on this matter. A couple of chemical foot warmers can dramatically increase the comfort and warmth of SLI's in this scenario, and should probably be in your emergency kit anyway.
7. As mentioned a few posts up, I've got Koflach Verticals, have had them for >10 yrs, and they fit my foot like a glove. Do not confuse anecdote (what I just wrote in #7) with reliable trends/data. But I thought it relevant.

A couple of quality SLI options:
Garmont Momentum Snow GTX
Sorel Conquest
Garmont Momentum Ice Lock (warmest of Momentums)
Salomon Toundra

Hope this is helpful,
Brian

Thanks for the info Brian. Gives me some things to research.