GPS Recommendation

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DougPaul,
I have two 60CSXs ( the second thanks to you ). The first is starting to wear out from so much use, antenna support, buttons. Would it be a good hedge to pick up a 62 before Garmin does more locking of maps? I have Garmin's East-West-AK-HI 100K and US Topo Nat'l Parks East 24K.
Both of my 60CSx's (as well as my 62s) are still going strong...

The issue is more an issue of the software than the hardware. (I expect that the unlocked topo maps will continue to work on future GPSes for at least a good while.)

Re: Garmin's East-West-AK-HI 100K (no DEM)
This map is pretty old--the US Topo 2008 (100K) is generally better. I'd get a copy of US Topo 2008 (DEM, unlocked, 6633 segments) while it is still available. (It is no longer listed on the Garmin website but is listed at Amazon and other places. Google and ye shall find...) Each map is better in certain regions--I have both on my computer but only Topo 2008 (along with Topo 24K) on my GPSes. It looks like the new version of US Topo (100K, ? segments) is locked.

Re: US Topo Nat'l Parks East 24K (no DEM)
AFAIK, still ok. You might consider Topo US 24K Northeast DVD (DEM, unlocked, 1059 segments) for its greater coverage (14 states). https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/map...-24k/topo-us-24k-northeast-dvd/prod35411.html (At this point, all 6 ConUS Topo US 24K DVDs are unlocked. Alaska and Hawaii 24K are not available on DVD and are only available in locked formats.)

Re: a 62s.
It looks to me like the 62 series is in the process of being discontinued. They are still shown as current on the Garmin website, but REI no longer carries them. Amazon and some other stores still list them--you can get some bargains on a 62s. Google and ye shall find.

However, the 64 series is out--you may or may not be interested. The primary difference is that it adds GLONASS satellite reception. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/cat...ep?compareProduct=140022&compareProduct=63801

Either will require you to use BaseCamp to access it from the computer. (Unless you want to use my trickery to get around it...)

Now that Nat'l Geo is out of the computer mapping software business, is it still possible to find some of the state specific DVDs? I have the NE states but mission a few of the mountain and SW maps.
I have the NE states plus NJ and NY. If you want greater coverage, perhaps you can buy used copies. Since these are DRGs of paper topo maps, I often prefer to look at them on my computer rather than the Garmin DLGs. (Both include DEMs.)

The more recent versions of MapSource, BaseCamp, and Nat'l Geo Topo can all read and write GPX files so tracks, routes, and waypoints can be transferred between any and displayed on all.

Doug
 
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Over the past 2 years, I've been wanting to get a GPS to supplement my winter backpacking rig. I mentioned in a previous post that I had an iPhone 5 and had coughed up $20 to buy Gaia GPS for said phone. I tested the app a couple of times on my train ride to work and found that even when we rode through absolutely dead spots (in terms of cell tower signal) the GPS functioned perfectly well and I could follow our track accurately on my phone. This was also true if I switched it to airplane mode. I further tested the phone/app on a couple of summer day hikes and the app functioned fine. So last winter and at the beginning of this winter I decided to test under conditions where I'd be more likely to really want it to work. The results are as follows:
1. Day hike up Pierce/Ike, temps just below zero. Phone in top of pack in Otter Box. Took phone out, snapped one photo, and phone would not turn on again due to cold (battery was at 100% when I left Highland Center). I didn't want to put it in my pocket for fear that the moist environment would kill it. Lesson: the phone needs to be kept warm. Verdict: fail.
2. Overnight around Cannon/Kinsmans. Put phone (in Otter Box) inside a plastic zipper bag this time so I wouldn't have to worry about moisture, and kept it in my pocket. Temps low twenties. Phone worked fine, but for reasons I don't understand, I could not zoom in to any reasonable level of detail on the map I'd downloaded using Gaia. It was just blurry; useless in terms of navigation. Verdict: fail.
3. Overnight through Carters and Moriah. Temps in teens, windy. Again kept phone in plastic bag in Otter Box and kept in pocket to keep it warm. Didn't turn it on at all the first day. On the second day, after leaving Imp to head towards Moriah, I tried to turn on the phone and could not get past the unlock screen - said it was for emergency use only, or some such thing. I simply could not unlock my phone. I don't know if this happens commonly when one is completely away from any cell signal - that it's impossible to use other functions on the phone. I've never had it happen to me before. I turned the phone off, then on again and still could not unlock it. When I got to Gorham later that day, it worked fine. I have no explanation. Verdict: fail.

I came into a small amount of money a month ago (read: Christmas) and decided to take the plunge and get myself a GPS. Since this would be used often in winter, I wanted something with buttons rather than a touch screen, and after reading many reviews (including here on VFTT) I bought the Garmin GPSMap 64s. It was $300. I got it out of the box and turned it on and there were no trail maps loaded. No problem, I'd read there were a variety of free maps available online. After reading through the scant product lit that came with the 64s and many, many useless reviews online, I came to the conclusion that additional maps must actually be purchased to make the unit useful. This realization came after spending many, many hours downloading all manner of mapping software, maps, conversion software and god knows what else, and also reading through all of the technical instructions related to said software. This was mentally exhausting. Having to buy additional maps made me sad, as I'd already spent a good chunk of change on the GPS unit. Oh well, late one night last week I plunked down another $100 to purchase maps of New England from Garmin. Boo. BUT, almost immediately after doing so, the maps loaded into Basecamp (Garmin mapping interface) and onto my GPS and I could zoom into all areas of the Whites and see lovely little trails winding through the mountains. Joy! I went to bed.

At the end of last week I spend a couple of hours here and there trying to acquaint myself with the GPS. I felt only marginally (at best) acquainted with the unit after this time - it is not a completely intuitive piece of machinery; don't let one DougPaul tell you otherwise! :) Regardless, I threw it into the top of my pack and headed off for the Carters this past weekend. On Saturday it was pretty cold, I don't think it got above zero the entire day. But I turned it on at the trailhead, cleared previous tracks, clipped it to my pack and hoped for the best. I calibrated nothing (probably not a recommended practice). It's worth noting that I'm really, really good with map and compass. Like a freakin' prodigy. No joke. Anyway, off we went. Midway up Stony Brook trail, I unclipped the GPS from my pack and took a look. I was pleased to see our exact location on the trail on the screen, to be able to use the arrow marking our location as an electronic compass, and to be able to use all functions (zooming in and out, checking track statistics, etc.) without taking off my shell mittens. Cool. We continued on.

Before long (actually, it was a very, very long time...I was hiking with THE slowest participant I have every had on one of my trips ever. Wow.), we arrived at the cold, windy junction of Carter-Moriah Trail. The snow was DEEP and drifted, the trail sign was barely sticking up above the snow. It was impossible to tell exactly which direction the trail went. So I unclipped the Garmin from my pack and clipped it directly to my Wet Rib (small food sack that attaches to a pack near one's stomach). It was 0.7 miles to the junction with Imp shelter trail. I used the GPS constantly to see where we were, and I cross-checked that with a laminated copy of the relevant AMC map, which I had clipped to my shell pants at my right hip. Although my compass was around my neck, I never pulled it out. I used the electronic compass on the GPS. We plowed through waist and chest deep drifts for the next 1.5 hrs while the temp dipped below zero and the wind occasionally knocked us over. It was tough going. Occasionally, even though I could see we were on trail (sawed branches and such), the GPS would indicate we were 10 or so feet off trail. This really wasn't a problem. That level of accuracy was actually quite simple to work with. On we went. Sometimes I'd have to knock the chest-deep drifts down with my arms before I could make a step in my snow shoes. And so it went. Branches knocked into me, snow filled the pocket I had the Garmin in, I generally beat on the GPS getting it in and out of its little pocket, and poked and prodded with my mitted hands to get what I wanted. It worked great. Curiously, the access trail to Imp shelter was not marked on the map I'd bought for $100. However, using the AMC map I had clipped to my hip, I could see the features that allowed me to see where the access trail junction should be, and we found again that the trail sign was just barely sticking above the snow drifts. A quarter mile later (and more waist- and chest-deep drifts) and we were at the shelter. I turned the GPS off.

I ate a lot. I slept for a long time.

When we awoke, I think it was about 10 below. We cooked breakfast, pounded down some coffee, packed up and off we went. I turned on the GPS, and there we were, at the little box marked Imp shelter, almost full battery life left (I'd put in lithium disposable AA's). With the winds being what they were and our participants being what they were, we forewent Moriah or anything else other than going down. But even with the wind and cold it was a lovely trip down with occasional views of Madison and Adams.
Garmin GPSMap 64s verdict: win.

Hope this is helpful,
Brian
 
I've been impressed with DeLorme PN60w and inReach, a combination of GPS and satellite communications for emergencies, texts and shared tracking. Anyone had any experience with these devices? They seem the perfect combination for remote adventures.

Yes, I bought an Inreach SE for hiking in the Mojave. I was by myself and needed to keep my relatives informed. I did not want to be in a scenario of having to rush back to a location with cell service to keep my relatives informed. I didn't know how much longer a 7K hike would take, or whether there would be a great sunset, and above all I didn't want to plan things out and limit the fun.

Cost Bottom Line

$250-$275 street, then applied a $50 rebate
Service: $25 annually
plus $20 one-time activation fee
plus $12 month for basic safety plan
-can suspend service at anytime​
-it stays live until the next billing date.​
-can restart service at any time, portions of a billing cycle count as a full month​
plus the usual taxes/fees like your cell phone​

Service
1. 2-Way texting on Iridium Satellite Network- Basic Safety Plan​
-there are more expensive plans which allow the unit to send its location out periodically, or to allow people with a password to ping the device and get its
location
-5 no charge self-test messages to prove out sat comm
-Unlimited number of 3 fixed messages to any phone or email address
-example "Im starting, Im delayed but Ok, Im back safely in my car"
-fixed messages are configureable by PC/usb
-sent to multiple emails and phones
-optional to add a signature to message giving people your location, and/or a link to web address they can use to send you a message
-this response web site requires a password and you must give your recipients the password ahead of time
-you can choose whether to allow people to ping your location or not...each ping is very expensive with the basic safety plan​
-10 arbitrary 140 char text messages
-the big red SOS button which initiates a text discussion with someone who can dispatch the local authorities​

2. Other
-config web site​
-to show the location where you sent a message from
-set up some of options, manage account, change plans, etc
-a lot of settings don't take effect until you bring the unit outside so it can talk to the satellites
-response web site​
-password- you have to give people username and password ahead of time
-this is the only way people can send you a message, see your last location, or ping your location
-location can be made invisible​
-PC app to configure the unit
-Phone app (bluetooth) which emulates a hand-held mapping GPS and can make it easier to type/read messages
-native GPS abilities without phone app
-all the reviews about these features were so negative I never bothered to read the manual.​
3. Some comments
-Delorme offers global rescue insurance which has a ridiculous number of holes in it​
-text messages are not really quick like a cell phone. It takes a (20 secs-1 min from my observations) for message to make it into the satellite and get acknowledged by the ground terminal​
-worked fine​
built-in battery which is charged by USB (not AA's)​
 
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I got it out of the box and turned it on and there were no trail maps loaded. No problem, I'd read there were a variety of free maps available online. After reading through the scant product lit that came with the 64s and many, many useless reviews online, I came to the conclusion that additional maps must actually be purchased to make the unit useful. This realization came after spending many, many hours downloading all manner of mapping software, maps, conversion software and god knows what else, and also reading through all of the technical instructions related to said software. This was mentally exhausting.
As you found out, the 64s only comes with a basemap.

BTW, the Garmin online manual is generally better than the paper manual that came with your GPS. (But still not great...)

Having to buy additional maps made me sad, as I'd already spent a good chunk of change on the GPS unit. Oh well, late one night last week I plunked down another $100 to purchase maps of New England from Garmin. Boo. BUT, almost immediately after doing so, the maps loaded into Basecamp (Garmin mapping interface) and onto my GPS and I could zoom into all areas of the Whites and see lovely little trails winding through the mountains. Joy! I went to bed.

At http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/ :
* Instructions on how to obtain and install legal free copies of BaseCamp and MapSource (install before obtaining maps)
* Free maps (In my experience, the non-free Garmin topo maps are better.)

At the end of last week I spend a couple of hours here and there trying to acquaint myself with the GPS. I felt only marginally (at best) acquainted with the unit after this time - it is not a completely intuitive piece of machinery; don't let one DougPaul tell you otherwise! :)
Harumph!! I've never claimed that a GPS is a completely intuitive piece of machinery. In fact, I've often said that it is a complicated but wonderful device. I recommend that new users play with it when it isn't needed so they will be comfortable with it when they do need it. Read the manual and traverse all the menus so that you learn what is there. Eventually you will find a habitable subset that does what you need.

Regardless, I threw it into the top of my pack and headed off for the Carters this past weekend. On Saturday it was pretty cold, I don't think it got above zero the entire day. But I turned it on at the trailhead, cleared previous tracks, clipped it to my pack and hoped for the best. I calibrated nothing (probably not a recommended practice).
You only need to calibrate the compass and the altimeter. If you set the altimeter to auto-calibration (which I recommend), you will only need to calibrate the compass and then only if you want to use it. (You will need to recalibrate if you change the batteries.) When Becca and I did our through-the-night Pemi lollipop ski trip (http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?39621-Pemi-Ski-Loop-in-Less-than-30-Hours-)), I never used or calibrated the GPS magnetic compass--I just used the WMNF trail tracks mentioned below. (I carried a mechanical compass too, but never needed it.) I could get direction as needed from our track as recorded on the GPS or the terrain.

<Imp trip details snipped>

* The GPS will generally be less accurate in your pocket than in the top of your pack. A trade-off for convenience.
* The trails on the Garmin maps are from the USGS topos and are not very accurate. See http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?38643-WMNF-GIS-trails-data-GPX and http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?52139-GPS-tracks-for-NH-4K for accurate WMNF trail tracks.
* Due to their rectangular discharge curves, it is hard for a device to determine how much capacity is left in lithium batteries. Make sure the battery type in the GPS is set correctly (alkaline/NiMH/lithium).

Garmin GPSMap 64s verdict: win.
GPSes can be handy, particularly when other methods of navigation are difficult...

Doug
 
DP- Many, many thanks for digging up the two threads linked at the end of your post. Prior to a year or so ago, GPS issues weren't on my radar, so I hadn't read/internalized the key points. But as has (apparently) been pointed out ad naseum, the trails shown on Garmin topos are not very accurate. I noticed this last night when I zoomed in on my track from the weekend: often there were deviations of several hundred feet between the trail marked on my GPS and the actual trail. I'm confident I was on the "actual" trail, and I'm confident the track was accurate to 10 or so feet as the trip was an out-and-back and the 'out' didn't deviate from the 'back' by more than 10' or so. But again, the 'out' and the 'back' were often several hundred feet from the 'trail' shown on the Garmin map.

I will spend some time this weekend getting the WMNF GIS trails data downloaded to my Garmin. I'm really pretty excited by this prospect. Again, thanks DP. Many thanks as well to one Kimball, some seriously fantastic public service in getting the WMNF trails data into GPS-usable format.
 
Brian, and others,

I bought the 64s and have spent hours and hours with it. The instructions on how you actually Navigate to a waypoint or route are non existent, or maybe I am missing something. I haven't been able to find any guidance. The instructions just say Go, but then what? You said the GPS would indicate when you were 10 feet off the trail. I use the map from the page screen but I don't see how it actually navigates. Help ME!!

Tuck
 
I noticed this last night when I zoomed in on my track from the weekend: often there were deviations of several hundred feet between the trail marked on my GPS and the actual trail.
Not surprised. Trails also get moved and current maps do not auto-update.

I'm confident I was on the "actual" trail, and I'm confident the track was accurate to 10 or so feet as the trip was an out-and-back and the 'out' didn't deviate from the 'back' by more than 10' or so. But again, the 'out' and the 'back' were often several hundred feet from the 'trail' shown on the Garmin map.
Garmin doesn't appear to publish an accuracy spec for the 64s (or at least I didn't find one in a quick look at the Garmin website), but the typical accuracy for a consumer GPS is 95% probability of being within 10 meters. I have certainly seen differences between the in and out of more than 10 ft.

The WMNF GIS trail tracks were probably collected by a trained operator using a survey grade GPS with an external choke-ring antenna and are therefore probably more accurate than those from a consumer GPS.

I will spend some time this weekend getting the WMNF GIS trails data downloaded to my Garmin. I'm really pretty excited by this prospect. Again, thanks DP. Many thanks as well to one Kimball, some seriously fantastic public service in getting the WMNF trails data into GPS-usable format.
When you get the WMNF GIS tracks in BaseCamp, compare them to your track. You will be able to compare the repeatability of your tracks (in vs out), your tracks to the WMNF GIS tracks, and the trail as shown on the map. On the tracks from the Pemi lollipop, in vs out is closest, my tracks to the GIS tracks next, and either vs the map trails is most different.

BTW, I looked at the online manual for the 64s (http://support.garmin.com/support/manuals/manuals.htm?partNo=010-01199-10&language=en&country=US). Not impressed... You may find the manuals for the 60CSx (http://support.garmin.com/support/manuals/manuals.htm?partNo=010-00422-00&language=en&country=US) or 62s (http://support.garmin.com/support/manuals/manuals.htm?partNo=010-00868-01&language=en&country=US) to be more helpful.

Doug
 
I bought the 64s and have spent hours and hours with it. The instructions on how you actually Navigate to a waypoint or route are non existent, or maybe I am missing something. I haven't been able to find any guidance. The instructions just say Go, but then what? You said the GPS would indicate when you were 10 feet off the trail. I use the map from the page screen but I don't see how it actually navigates. Help ME!!
To navigate to a waypoint:
* place a waypoint (on the map display), find a waypoint using the "find" key, or find a location using the "find" key
* you will be provided with a goto (screen) button--click on it. (then select "follow road" or "off road"--I'll assume "off road" here)
* The map will show a line from your current location to your destination. (It may lead off screen.) If you switch to the compass display, it will show you a compass rose with an arrow pointing to your destination. Once you start moving, the compass rose will orient to show you your direction of travel. Depending on how you set your data fields, it can show you the heading and distance to the destination.

To place a waypoint using the map display, move the pointer to the destination and press enter. You can also find a location using the "find" key and then place the waypoint.

To follow a trail, you first need a trail track or a trail on the map. As you move, the pointer arrowhead will show you where you are and your direction of movement. Just guide the arrowhead along the trail...

Practice the above near home before trying it for real in the woods. (You could, for instance, follow a road. However, please walk on the sidewalk rather than in the road... :) ) Note that depending on where you place the waypoint, it may point through objects or places that you cannot go through. It's your job to find a safe and practical route--the GPS simply points at the destination.

Note 1:
I suggest that you set the map display to "north up" rather than "track up". If set to track up, the map can rotate on the display which I find disorienting (and you may too...). Also set the headings to "true" or "magnetic" as to your preference. If you wish, you can have the GPS tell you a heading and then use a mechanical compass to follow it. (I often do this in preference to using the electronic magnetic compass in the GPS.)

Note 2:
Sometimes you are at a place in the menus and cannot find a desired option. Try pressing "menu" and you may get some additional options. (You can always get back by pressing "quit".)

Note 3:
Q&A over the internet on how to use a GPS is a very slow and high cost--low payoff method for teaching. (I certainly don't have time to do it...) I suggest that you get some one-on-one help from someone who knows how to use it. Also, try the manuals linked in my previous post.

Doug
 
Yes, I bought an Inreach SE for hiking in the Mojave. I was by myself and needed to keep my relatives informed. I did not want to be in a scenario of having to rush back to a location with cell service to keep my relatives informed. I didn't know how much longer a 7K hike would take, or whether there would be a great sunset, and above all I didn't want to plan things out and limit the fun.

Cost Bottom Line



$250-$275 street, then applied a $50 rebate
Service: $25 annually
plus $20 one-time activation fee
plus $12 month for basic safety plan
-can suspend service at anytime​
-it stays live until the next billing date.​
-can restart service at any time, portions of a billing cycle count as a full month​
plus the usual taxes/fees like your cell phone​

Service
1. 2-Way texting on Iridium Satellite Network- Basic Safety Plan​
-there are more expensive plans which allow the unit to send its location out periodically, or to allow people with a password to ping the device and get its
location
-5 no charge self-test messages to prove out sat comm
-Unlimited number of 3 fixed messages to any phone or email address
-example "Im starting, Im delayed but Ok, Im back safely in my car"
-fixed messages are configureable by PC/usb
-sent to multiple emails and phones
-optional to add a signature to message giving people your location, and/or a link to web address they can use to send you a message
-this response web site requires a password and you must give your recipients the password ahead of time
-you can choose whether to allow people to ping your location or not...each ping is very expensive with the basic safety plan​
-10 arbitrary 140 char text messages
-the big red SOS button which initiates a text discussion with someone who can dispatch the local authorities​

2. Other
-config web site​
-to show the location where you sent a message from
-set up some of options, manage account, change plans, etc
-a lot of settings don't take effect until you bring the unit outside so it can talk to the satellites
-response web site​
-password- you have to give people username and password ahead of time
-this is the only way people can send you a message, see your last location, or ping your location
-location can be made invisible​
-PC app to configure the unit
-Phone app (bluetooth) which emulates a hand-held mapping GPS and can make it easier to type/read messages
-native GPS abilities without phone app
-all the reviews about these features were so negative I never bothered to read the manual.​
3. Some comments
-Delorme offers global rescue insurance which has a ridiculous number of holes in it​
-text messages are not really quick like a cell phone. It takes a (20 secs-1 min from my observations) for message to make it into the satellite and get acknowledged by the ground terminal​
-worked fine​
built-in battery which is charged by USB (not AA's)​


FWIW, the Inreach SE and its big brother the Inreach are on sale on REI for very low prices. The big brother InReach purports itself to be a full-featured handheld GPS, but I dont recall seeing great reviews.
 
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