Hardshells And Weight

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I lucked out and found an Arc'Teryx Alpha SV on ebay. I had been watching it for a few months---as well as the "Saquano Green" one on REI (not my color). When the auctioneer dropped the price quite a bit I jumped on it. I hope it will last as long as the ordinary EMS (probably north face) shell which served me well for over 9 years.

Towards the end, dry cleaning shops stopped applying DWR due to EPA restrictions. It seemed to me that the nikwax wash in treatment would only last once or twice---and never when heavy drops would fall off of trees. On a long walk back on Lincoln road, the fully penetrated shell froze into an ice shell. Good thing I was headed back.
 
To return to the original question, I have a Patagonia Storm jacket (H2No laminated) which weighs 27 oz. I thought it was too heavy and bulky and didn't breathe well enough, so bought a Marmot Precip anorak (no longer available) at 9 oz. and Patagonia Krushell (single layer nylon, no longer available) at 14 oz. I found that owning two shells provided better comfort over a wider range of conditions. Unfortunately, the coating inside the Precip shell was not very durable (typical for that style) and started leaking around the neck, so I upgraded to the Rab Latok Alpine (eVent laminate) at 17 oz. If I had only one shell, it would have eVent laminate. But, I do about 95% of my hiking wearing the Krushell or no shell at all. I also wear LLBean Classic Anorak (single layer nylon) at 14 oz. most of the time when skiing because it's more roomy than the Krushell.
 
Gore-Tex is over-Hyped? It's the best waterproof fabric ever invented. I guess I'm the exception, I use my shell a lot year round, which is the reason I go for top shelf quality.

I tend toward your feelings. I have a 3-layer Gore-Tex (ascent IIRC) from LLBEAN about 10-12 years ago. It was $300 back then. I always wanted to know who made it. Has been through hell and back....lots of hard use in winter. Still in my pack to this day. 3 layer is HEAVY but it's durable. I tore up a lightweight pair of Marmot pants pretty easily. $$$'s gone! I also use my shell year round, sans summer.

I did make the move to some lighter weight insulated layer. I have a Gore-Windstopper fleece from Mountain Hardwear (also pretty old) and a brand spanking new Mountain Hardwear Thermostatic prima loft jacket. I tried the LL Bean lightweight but the cut is not for broad shouldered dudes. Sooo light and scary that it can keep you warm! I just don't have the faith in the durability of a lightweight shell.
 
The shell is probably acting as a (partial) vapor barrier.
Yes, and because the Gore-Tex layer is kept warmer, it's able to function better, as you have noted.
Except in this application, warming the Gore-Tex increases the moisture permeability which reduces its function as a moisture barrier...

However, even warm Gore-Tex will reduce the overall moisture loss to some degree.

Doug
 
DougPaul said:
However, even warm Gore-Tex will reduce the overall moisture loss to some degree.
That's seems so bassackwards to me, the one thing that I find most important is to maximize moisture loss.
A vapor barrier (which must be at a temperature very close to that of the underlying skin) works by blocking moisture transport from the skin. This prevents evaporative heat loss from the skin and keeps one's insulation (outside the barrier) dry.

If there is insulation between one's skin and the vapor barrier, the barrier will be at a lower temp and moisture will condense on it and soak into the insulation between one's skin and the barrier.

Ideally, the barrier blocks all of the water vapor. A waterproof-breathable layer will pass some of the water vapor and therefore be less effective than a total block. (And warm Gore-Tex passes more moisture than cold Gore-Tex, therefore my comment.)


When one uses an outer shell (which will of course be on the cold side of the insulation...), a total moisture block will result in condensation (or frost) on the inside which can soak into one's insulation. (This is what happens when one wears a non-breathable rain jacket...) A breathable outer shell will let some (hopefully enough) of the moisture out to reduce or eliminate the condensation.


It's all just simple physics... :)

Doug
 
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This prevents evaporative heat loss from the skin and keeps one's insulation (outside the barrier) dry.

A breathable outer shell will let some (hopefully enough) of the moisture out to reduce or eliminate the condensation.

I find that preventing evaporative heat loss leads to overheating which increases perspiration. I choose clothing that allows moisture to evaporate on my skin and remain a vapor (relative humidity less than 100%) until it passes through my shell.

It's simple thermodynamics. I don't question the science, just the application of the science.
 
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I find that preventing evaporative heat loss leads to overheating which increases perspiration. I choose clothing that allows moisture to evaporate on my skin and remain a vapor (relative humidity less than 100%) until it passes through my shell.

It's simple thermodynamics. I don't question the science, just the application of the science.
Successful application depends on the details...
* Some people (myself included) produce a lot of heat and sweat a lot when active and some don't. It has to be pretty cold for me to dissipate enough heat without allowing evaporative cooling. In contrast, I have a friend who produces far less heat. I can recall a day where I was using a fully breathable fleece (to dissipate moisture) and she was wearing a (non-breathable) rain shell over some fleece (or polyester-fill equivalent). We were both fine... (I would have overheated and become wet with a rain shell, she would have required a lot more insulation without the shell. She was using the rain shell as a wind shell and stayed dry because she wasn't sweating.)

* Vapor barriers are generally useful only at pretty low temps--0F is a typically quoted threshold for a VB jacket. (VB socks are often useful at somewhat warmer temps.)

* When using a vapor barrier, one may have to adjust the amount of insulation and the amount of VB to control one's heat loss. When using fully breathable insulation, one's automatic thermal controls can work over a wider range before one has to adjust one's insulation.

IMO, understanding the physics/thermodynamics can help one to use VBs successfully.

Doug
 
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When using fully breathable insulation, one's automatic thermal controls can work over a wider range before one has to adjust one's insulation.

That's exactly my point, and why I prefer clothing that encourages moisture to escape.
 
It takes all kinds I guess. When I want to stay dry and have a material that last and always performs, I stay with Gore-tex, the only science I have to back it up, is over 30 years using it succesfully. The only thing I would say comes close is Patagonia's H2NO, bu then again I have not tried everything out there. If you find something that works for you and last, have at it.
 
My gear evaluation took an unexpected turn today when I did a 9 mile hike near my house in my softshell which I got late in the winter season last year and really didn't get a chance to use much. It was moderate to easy walking, mid 30's and I wore over a Techwick 1 base layer and a microfleece, unzipped 2/3 of way the whole walk . I never really felt hot at all and wasn't really sweating at all (hair under my baseball hat was dry) yet when I stopped the sleeves were soaked on the inside and the sides were pretty damp. A softshell that doesn't breathe?????
 
When using fully breathable insulation, one's automatic thermal controls can work over a wider range before one has to adjust one's insulation.

That's exactly my point, and why I prefer clothing that encourages moisture to escape.

In general, vapor barriers are most useful at colder temps (eg below 0F) where moisture is more likely to accumulate in clothing. The advantages may apply mostly for long trips where moisture may accumulate for days in one's clothing and sleeping bag--some polar explorers have had sleeping bags weigh over 50lbs toward the end of a long trip (when not using a VB). In contrast, the bag will gain little if any weight if used with a VB. (Down bags will also lose loft when used without a VB.)

Doug
 
I never really felt hot at all and wasn't really sweating at all (hair under my baseball hat was dry) yet when I stopped the sleeves were soaked on the inside and the sides were pretty damp. A softshell that doesn't breathe?????

Exactly. You were using a fleece softshell. Try a wool sweater instead. Wool will suck the moisture right off of your skin. A simple nylon shell will then allow the moisture to escape while blocking the wind.
 
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Exactly. You were using a fleece softshell. Try a wool sweater instead. Wool will suck the moisture right off of your skin. A simple nylon shell will then allow the moisture to escape while blocking the wind.

??? I was wearing a microfleece layer under the softshell, not a fleece softshell. Is any windstopper jacket considered a "soft shell"? Are all soft shells ultimately some sort of fleece? I have a Marmot jacket that I would say is more of that Polartec Wind Stopper fabric stuff. I was under the impression that was a highly breathable material. I have a similar North Face product that doesn't do that but is a more casual cut that I really don't use for hiking except in summer months.

The moisture was not on my skin. It was the inside of the softshell that was wet. My concern is that it will eventually soak into my mid and base layers and get me cold. The moisture was getting away from my skin through my base layer and the microfleece mid layer but it wasn't getting through the softshell to the outside. Am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?
 
I'm sure if I keep hurling money at the issue buying new toys I'll find something that works. :)

Sierra Trading Post has many wool sweaters at good prices. Get one that weighs about 12 oz. and another that weighs about 20 oz. JG Glover is a good brand. I prefer the crewneck styles with raglan sleeves so I don't have seams under my pack straps. You will still need a nylon shell, though.
 
Am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?

Perhaps. What I probably should say is that I'm glad I don't have a moisture problem anymore. I was able to figure out a solution after lots of experimenting and you can too.
 
Is any windstopper jacket considered a "soft shell"? Are all soft shells ultimately some sort of fleece?

The term "soft shell" can apply to pretty much any material that offers some combination of wind resistance, water resistance, and insulation; and is *not a hard shell*. That is a vast space.

In spite of what the advertisements would have you believe, breathability is pretty much always inversely proportional to windproof-ness. That's just how it is. Even a "very breathable" soft shell is likely to condense some of your sweat if you're working fairly hard. "More breathable than a hard shell" may be accurate, but that doesn't tell you much since hard shells are pretty non-breathable (again, in spite of what the advertisements would have you believe). It's all relative, and truth be told, there are no "magic" materials, just some that are better suited to certain activities than others. There are always trade offs.
 
I don't know why it isn't mentioned more but if the outer layer you are wearing isn't breathable enough and you don't have another option in the pack, just slow down. Problem solved.
 
??? I was wearing a microfleece layer under the softshell, not a fleece softshell. Is any windstopper jacket considered a "soft shell"? Are all soft shells ultimately some sort of fleece? I have a Marmot jacket that I would say is more of that Polartec Wind Stopper fabric stuff. I was under the impression that was a highly breathable material. I have a similar North Face product that doesn't do that but is a more casual cut that I really don't use for hiking except in summer months.
As hikerbrian noted, the term "softshell" covers a wide variety of products...

A wool shirt or sweater fit the definition long before the term was coined... If the wool contains more of its original oils, it will be more water resistant. A tight weave/knit will also be more wind resistant than a loose weave/knit. Wool wets slowly from external liquid water (eg mist or drizzle) and can absorb far more water than other fabrics before it feels wet. It also retains more insulation and cushioning than other fabrics when wet (which is why it is king for socks). Wool these days may be highly processed so what you are getting may not be obvious...

BTW, wool is a very interesting and unique fiber--it consists of a hydrophobic outside layer over a hydrophilic core.

The moisture was not on my skin. It was the inside of the softshell that was wet. My concern is that it will eventually soak into my mid and base layers and get me cold. The moisture was getting away from my skin through my base layer and the microfleece mid layer but it wasn't getting through the softshell to the outside. Am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?
Your skin is essentially a wet warm object so the air in contact with it is very near to 100% humidity at the local skin temperature. (I'll assume that you are not sweating which would, of course, add warm liquid water to the scenario.) The air away from your body (assuming cool weather) is both cooler and contains less water.* So basically there is a temperature gradient between your skin and the ambient air and as the moisture diffuses out through your clothing, the temperature drops and the humidity increases until the moisture either exits your clothing or the humidity tries to exceed 100% at which point the excess will condense in your clothing.**

* The maximum amount of water that air can hold is much less in cooler temps and any excess water will condense out. Percent humidity is the percentage of the maximum for the current local temperature.

** This same mechanism deposits moisture in your sleeping bag unless you use a vapor barrier liner.

In practice, you just have to experiment and learn from experience how much and what kind of insulation works for you. BTW, vests (with or without a jacket) are a good way to add insulation to your core without increasing the insulation on your arms. I personally produce a lot of heat and sweat when hiking and often have to strip down to my baselayer on the warmer days (ie above 20-30F, particularly with sun and no wind). I also often carry both a fully-breathable fleece jacket and a wind-blocking fleece jacket. Both have similar insulation values, but I can often only wear the breathable fleece because I would sweat and moisture would collect in the wind-blocking fleece.

Doug
 
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