Hardshells And Weight

I am still using a Columbia Vertex 3 in 1 Jacket (may be the Lhotse model). No longer made, but this one has served me very well for years in cold conditions. I usually wear it over pretty thick fleece zip jacket. I can't find the weight, but I've always been very happy with it.

I can vouch for Tim's comments on sweating. There are pretty wide differences here in heat output. The last winter hike I was on with Tim, he was sweating in a base layer within minutes of leaving the TH, and I was comfortable in a base layer and thick fleece for the first 30 minutes or so. We were ascending.

I think some people are going to sweat regardless of how many layers they take off, and in that case, having a simple change of base layer is the easiest solution to staying dry and warm.

I warm slowly but produce heat consistently after a short while. I chill quickly though, so you won't see me take breaks for long in winter.

DougPaul said:

1) don't sweat (keep your clothing dry)
2) don't sweat (keep your clothing dry)
3) don't sweat (keep your clothing dry)

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Fourth Bruce: Rule Four, now this term, I don't want to catch anybody not drinking..... Rule Five,

Everybruce: No Pooftas!

Fourth Bruce: Rule Six, there is NO ... Rule Six!... Rule Seven,

Everybruce: No Pooftas!!

Fourth Bruce: Right, that concludes the readin' of the rules, Bruce.

DayTrip said:

Adjusting zippers and taking hat on and off was enough for this particular walk. I did sweat pretty good in spots but I never got a chill. So I'm going to use this as a benchmark and starting point to adjust for temps.

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Your results are consistent with mine.

hikerbrian said:

Well, I think we all have a tendency to project what works for us onto everyone else. I could be wrong, but I suspect JFB has done a fair amount of experimenting with his layering strategy and his system works well for him. Let's also remember that there's a lot of subjectivity in words like "damp" and "compromised."

I personally think changing out of one's base layers on a windy summit and letting the wind dry oneself is absolutely ludicrous. But I'm fairly confident sierra is not new to this game, and his system has worked well for him under a variety of challenging conditions. I wouldn't dream of telling him he's "doing it wrong."

Personally, I haven't bothered to bring an extra base layer in my pack for the past 5 years because, for the 5 years preceding that decision, said base layer never left my pack, in temperatures from 20 below to 40 above and every level of exertion. Why? Because I've found that if I take off a damp base layer, that base layer is not going to be useful for the remainder of my trip. It is dead weight. Instead, I try first not to sweat, but failing that (as sometimes happens), I've found I can easily dry any amount of moisture from my base layer (which is very thin) by simply donning a fleece vest or other light insulating layer for the last 20 minutes of my hike, and everything dries out painlessly.

More appropriately than ever, YMMV.

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When I change my base layer it leaves me completely dry and comfortable for the descent. Granted, if I'm the summit of Washington and its -20, I may not use this system. Ludicrous, not the first time that's been used in my company. By the way, not that it really matters, I have 35 years winter experience, mostly solo.

hikerbrian said:

Well, I think we all have a tendency to project what works for us onto everyone else.

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Good observation.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=A81DB34A2CBB42EE7D40A81DB34A2CBB42EE7D40

sierra said:

When I change my base layer it leaves me completely dry and comfortable for the descent. Granted, if I'm the summit of Washington and its -20, I may not use this system. Ludicrous, not the first time that's been used in my company. By the way, not that it really matters, I have 35 years winter experience, mostly solo.

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When my base layer has gotten damp, this works for me. I can handle 30 seconds of bare skin in the cold for the almost immediate increase in warmth I feel once I change the layer and get my fleece and parka back on. To be fair, I rarely have to do this. The only days I tend to have to worry about getting too damp is when it's over 20-25 F. A pair of dry fleece gloves goes a long way on those days too.

Doug, I remember fishnet and it worked quite well with wool layers. I remember standing round a fire in the morning slapping our sides and with the stem rising from our damp woolen clothes. When people ask me how I can winter camp at my age (66) I reply that it's easy now.

Are any of you hunters and/or anglers? Do you remember Patrick McManus in (I think) 'Sports Afield'? He coined the term, 'A fine and pleasant misery'. Lol

sierra said:

By the way, not that it really matters, I have 35 years winter experience, mostly solo.

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Yeah, I know, including substantial time working the CO 14ers. Like I said, I wouldn't dream of telling you you're doing it wrong. But I am willing to say that I've tried it your way, and I've tried it my way, and my way works better for me. I suspect this is true of nearly everyone posting on this thread (i.e. that they've tried a lot of options and like THEIR particular method the best). There's more than one good way to get to Madison, as they say.

sierra said:

When I change my base layer it leaves me completely dry and comfortable for the descent. Granted, if I'm the summit of Washington and it's -20, I may not use this system. Ludicrous, not the first time that's been used in my company. By the way, not that it really matters, I have 35 years winter experience, mostly solo.

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I can't vouch for -20, but I do remember arriving at my group's tent site one brisk, -15F evening at the close of a day-long ascent with full overnight gear. As I cooled down while setting up camp, I added layers, my normal strategy. With all my layers on though, I still didn't feel warm enough. So I bit the bullet and changed into a dry base layer as quickly as I could. For the brief time I was fully exposed, I didn't get cold. And when done, I felt SOooo much better.

So in a way our strategies are the reverse of each other. Per above, a base layer change seems routine for you upon completion of a day's strenuous portion, except possibly when it's really cold -- whereas I'll only bother with it if it IS really cold and I can't make myself warm and comfy without doing it (but yeah, in your Mt. Washington situation I'd circle around and under the visitor center and get out of the wind first...).

Alex

DayTrip said:

It seems that the bulk of the heat and moisture I generate is in the underarm, upper arm and side of body (and of course back where pack is but I have no idea how that can be fixed).

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Three options come to mind:

1. Per my earlier recommendation, experiment with using fewer layers/less insulation, such that your hot areas start to feel less hot and your other areas feel cool. Work it down to as light as you can. Per the comments above from numerous folks, it's way better to feel cool than warm when generating lots of heat.

2. Jniehof's earlier "half vest" suggestion would enable you to warm your front without simultaneously over-warming your already-warm back.

3. Get an Osprey pack with AirSpeed suspension or the slightly less effective but still impressive AirScape back surface. Since getting my first Atmos years ago, I haven't suffered from "wet back syndrome" (which I especially despise in winter conditions) since. It keeps the pack off your back, and truly allows the ambient conditions to reach there. The result: totally balanced front vs. back layering requirements.

Alex

alexmtn said:

3. Get an Osprey pack with AirSpeed suspension or the slightly less effective but still impressive AirScape back surface. Since getting my first Atmos years ago, I haven't suffered from "wet back syndrome" (which I especially despise in winter conditions) since. It keeps the pack off your back, and truly allows the ambient conditions to reach there. The result: totally balanced front vs. back layering requirements.

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I have one of each and my back is still sweaty most of the time. Not as bad as with a lie-flat pack but it's not a silver bullet either.

Tim

I'm new to this forum but not new to winter hikes/climbs. I'm sure there are vast degrees of differences between all of us but basic principals apply to all in at least some form. After years of carrying extra base layers, I stopped. I'm almost always a loooong day hike kinda guy. I sweat on the up! Not so much on the down; if at all. I'm slower on the up and tend to fly on the down. I've found many a winter day in the White's to be -5 to +5. These are what I have learn to be "typical." Obviously some days are warmer and many are much, much colder, but this is a base I use. I dropped the heavy weight base layer as it was just too warm for me. I use midweight base for top and pant. Out of the car (My God those first few minutes are rough!) It's usually a windblocker fleece jacket for about 15min until my larger muscle groups are working and giving off heat. After this point, usually I'm warm enough to take the glove liners off and the hat off as well as the fleece jacket. By now I'm giving off some heat! Ear warmer band usually regulates me just fine and I let some of that heat escape out the uncovered noodle.

If I stop, I know I will soon go from warm to damn cold quick, especially if there is a wind. At this point I throw on the hardshell just to keep the wind at bay and some of my heat in. Pre-summit, I usually will stop for a few, put on the hardshell, tuck my cord in so I don't get whipped int he wind, and put on balanclava, gloves, hat, whatever is needed for the expected down time on the summit.

No way on the up climb am I not sweating. But I found what works for me and keeps me overall warm but not too wet and I'm usually very comfortable on the way down. I do often carry a midweight liner balanclava and a fleece one. It can be so hard keeping a balanclava from icing up on you in the really cold summit pushes....having a second one is a good security blanket.

bikehikeskifish said:

I have one of each and my back is still sweaty most of the time. Not as bad as with a lie-flat pack but it's not a silver bullet either.

Tim

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Tim, I've seen folks experience this with their Ospreys when wearing layers that they've unzipped to remain cool - but in that case their backs are correspondingly more insulated than their fronts, hence hotter than their fronts, and I can understand the sweat.

When you've been ascending in the 'single layer polyester t-shirt' mode that you mentioned earlier and there's no headwind, is your back still warmer/sweatier than your front? If yes, sorry to hear, but a helpful data point and vivid example of YMMV.

For so many folks I've hiked with, the term 'silver bullet' wouldn't be fully accurate -- rather I'd go with 'dramatically amazing silver bullet'. Definitely rates a place on my 'most useful gear innovations ever' list, amid such august company as waterproof/breathable, merino sox, schoeller fabric, LED headlamps, light/fast footwear, freeze drying, Sawyer, SPOT, MicroSpikes, the vapor barrier concept, sil-ny, etc.

Alex

Today, I wore a short-sleeve poly T-shirt and put on / off arm warmers on the way up Cabot - temps in the 32-36 degree range. My front was sweatier than my back, as it often is. I wore the Osprey 40 (AirSpeed).

For my money, none of the marketing claims are as good as they make themselves out to be. I'll leave it at that.

Tim

bikehikeskifish said:

Today, I wore a short-sleeve poly T-shirt and put on / off arm warmers on the way up Cabot - temps in the 32-36 degree range. My front was sweatier than my back, as it often is. I wore the Osprey 40 (AirSpeed).

For my money, none of the marketing claims are as good as they make themselves out to be. I'll leave it at that.

Tim

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Hey Tim, the airspeed's totally doing its job if your backside is no warmer than your frontside! It can't magically eliminate sweat, but it does ensure that your backside gets the same (vs. less) exposure to the elements as your frontside. I hear you re: marketing claims -- but every now and then, one does bear out.

I think my layers would be just about the same for that trip (I'd probably be in a long-sleeved T1 shirt), but I'd be damp rather than wet. Have you ever experimented with eliminating the shirt altogether as was suggested earlier, or using something thinner/draftier than the poly shirt, perhaps in conjunction with the arm warmers? Why not turn some heads!

Alex

The AirSpeed no doubt works better than the AirScape. I was the only one with one layer on today, and short sleeves at that... until the wind kicked up at which point I rolled up the arm warmers and put on gloves (liners). Technically I was not the least-dressed member of our party, but Gryffin doesn't count

I don't know where you draw the line between damp and wet... I did not take my shift off and wring it out. Does that make it damp?

Tim

bikehikeskifish said:

The AirSpeed no doubt works better than the AirScape. I was the only one with one layer on today, and short sleeves at that... until the wind kicked up at which point I rolled up the arm warmers and put on gloves (liners). Technically I was not the least-dressed member of our party, but Gryffin doesn't count

I don't know where you draw the line between damp and wet... I did not take my shift off and wring it out. Does that make it damp?

Tim

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Maybe you *were* the least dressed, even technically: Gryffin likely was in a plush fur coat.

When I said it, I was picturing my shirt pretty much draped on me without sticking to the skin much, generally appearing dry - but kind of cold/damp to the feel, and eagerly change worthy upon return to the car. Perhaps we should empower ourselves to be more objective about this by carrying around one of those soil moisture testers that horticulturists use - at least one per group. And just in case it's on the tip of your tongue to ask me: no, I would not include that on my 'best gear innovations ever' list.

LOL

hikerbrian said:

Yeah, I know, including substantial time working the CO 14ers. Like I said, I wouldn't dream of telling you you're doing it wrong. But I am willing to say that I've tried it your way, and I've tried it my way, and my way works better for me. I suspect this is true of nearly everyone posting on this thread (i.e. that they've tried a lot of options and like THEIR particular method the best). There's more than one good way to get to Madison, as they say.

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The reason a board like this is nice, is that we can all throw stuff against the wall and hopefully find new ways to do stuff. There is alot of experience out here and personally I've learned a thing or two out here. Some things that work for some, will not for other's, but heck you never know.

DougPaul said:

Such tactics may generally work out OK on a day trip when everything goes well, but if one becomes immobilized one has to wait around in wet clothing. And on a multiday trip, one's clothing would most likely become progressively wetter.

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This is not necessarily true, it depends on the nature of your base layer: a very thin polypro base layer holds very little water, and (speaking for myself) since I keep mine on all the time and dry it each day, it does not become progressively wetter over the course of several days, even if I have gotten it damp. The key is to avoid a heavy base layer. "Expedition weight" thick base layers are a mistake for nearly all "expeditions" as far as I can tell.

To be clear, I would never advocate keeping extra layers on and exerting one's self to the point of over-heating. And when I say damp I don't mean dripping wet, but perhaps some visible moisture on one's back. Sweating is certainly to be avoided with great urgency, but a little bit of dampness is not the end of the world.

Also, I think it pays to have multiple options for getting your clothing dry, especially on a multi-day trip. If your only option is to put on a dry base layer, you're either going to need to carry a lot of base layers on multi-day trips, or you're going to cut short a lot of trips. Having the ability to dry a base layer that has become damp gives you more flexibility.

Even in the absence of over-heating/sweating, a damp base layer can happen for any number of reasons, especially on multi-day trips. Just a couple that I've experienced: hiking up through an inversion or approaching warm front (-2 F at Appalacia, then 35 F by the time we hit Valley Way tentsite) can cause snow-laden trees to suddenly become continuous mini-waterfalls; rain or mixed precipitation (good luck staying completely dry in 35 F and spitting snow) followed by an arctic cold front; bumping even a single snow-laden spruce without one's hood up and feeling the freezing cold snow straight down your back. In these and other situations, I think your most versatile strategy is to have a method to dry your base layer. FWIW, I almost never do day trips in the winter, I enjoy sleeping in the snow too much, so I always strategize for the long haul.

I don't think I'd have the intestinal fortitude to strip to my bare skin on a cold winter day and change my base layer. No one mentioned this so I presume no one does it but I like to carry my small camp towel with me year round (those compact highly absorbent ones that stuff into a 4x4 stuff sack or thereabouts). When I stop to make an adjustment I'll stuff it under my layers and try to absorb sweat and moisture on the skin wherever I can reach to help dry before I cool down (chest, lower back, head before I throw a new hat on, etc). Seems to help quite a bit vs doing nothing. Between doing that and having a fresh layer added it seems to help with the drying/wicking process.

And to hikerbrian's point, that is one of the main reasons I hate wearing just a fleece or other non-hard shell for winter hiking. When you're in the trees you are almost always brushing snow covered branches, scrambling up snow covered rocks, etc and fleece just gets too wet. And even before the snow sets in a lot of days are very damp and fleece gets a good coating of condensation on the surface. Thus I find I need more layers to carry in order to swap out of these garments at some point to stay dry. I'd rather start from a waterproof base for this reason and build my system accordingly.

And lastly for Tim, when you say you wear a poly t-shirt are you talking about the Under-Armour (or similar) type shirts you'd wear in the summer? I have a shirt I use in summer that I really like that is almost a mesh type fabric on the back and underarms for venting heat. I was considering using it in winter but didn't know if that kind of fabric was a bad idea in winter (i.e. likely to freeze like cotton). Figured if I started with that and wore a thin wicking layer over it (or under it) it might help. Any thoughts on that?