Size Obsession

Just bought a new summer pack and I am wondering if it's too big. It's a 32 liter Deuter Futura Pro. The 30 liter Futura was too small (backlength and inner pack size)and I sent it back. The 32 Pro fits my back perfectly but next to my old 30 liter REI Venturi it looks huge! I want something comfortable enough for scrambling but big enough for 15 miles of peak bagging. How many liters are your summer packs?

I think part of the equation is how big you are and how big the rest of your gear is (and what you bring, etc). For me I use a 24 liter pack and it works quite well for what I need. I'm a big dude and I carry a middle of the road amount of extra gear when I hike, depending on the weather. I haven't tried this pack for winter hiking yet, so we'll see!

Best,
T.J.

Peppersass said:

How many liters are your summer packs?

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Lots of trail runners on this site would consider a fanny pack sufficient, so the question is what are provisions are you taking with you? are you solo? on a remote, less populated, trail? Are you planning on being comfortable if you are benighted? or is your threshold survival? or do you think the possibility of falling and breaking a leg too improbable to need to plan for?

I typically use a KESTRAL 32 for summer day hikes and 1-2 night out in July/August since my gear list for those trips are almost identical and I dislike having anything hanging off, external to the pack.

I use a Kelty Redwing 50 that according to specs is a 52L pack so I'm thinking yours isn't too big. From what I can tell I appear to carry a lot more stuff than other people. How people pack the 10 essentials, rain gear, various layers, water shoes, food, water and all the other crap they say claim to carry and somehow get it all into a 20 or 30 L pack is lost on me. I am clearly doing something wrong. I like the extra space to organize everything instead of having everything crushed into compressible stuff sacks and bags. I won't mention what I use for winter hiking.

I am 5'5" so womens specific packs work. I always pack for a night in the woods (and uncomfortable one but still I could hold my own) minus the sleeping bag (just have a bivy). I have WFA first aid stuff, 10 essentials, snacks, bladder, fleece vest, hat, gloves, rainpants. Two headlamps. I would probably not consider TJ's 24 liter (too small I think) or DayTrips 52 (too big). My winter pack holds more (45-60 liter) and I have found that 30 liters isn't really 30 if you purchase a woman's small. Kestral sounds good.

Peppersass said:

I am 5'5" so womens specific packs work. I always pack for a night in the woods (and uncomfortable one but still I could hold my own) minus the sleeping bag (just have a bivy). I have WFA first aid stuff, 10 essentials, snacks, bladder, fleece vest, hat, gloves, rainpants. Two headlamps. I would probably not consider TJ's 24 liter (too small I think) or DayTrips 52 (too big). My winter pack holds more (45-60 liter) and I have found that 30 liters isn't really 30 if you purchase a woman's small. Kestral sounds good.

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Yeah, 'small' packs usually don't have the full load (a 24L Osprey pack might be 22L). I'm not sure how uniform the ratio of lost volume is across brands, but it's worth noting. I pretty much carry the same gear (though I just use extra batteries in lieu of a second headlamp and I don't carry a knife). Since you mention it, my wife uses a Kestral 32 year round and it's worked out quite well for her. I find the panel loading makes it a lot easier to access gear too.

I have the same Deuter Futura pack and have a 3 liter Deuter water bladder inside. This pack works well in the summer. I also have a 50 liter Deuter that I use in the winter, and have an insulator for the water bladder in the cold. The 32 liter does not seem big enough for the extra clothing layers that I carry in the winter. But both packs are really comfortable. I like the breathing space behind my back to allow for some air circulation. Only bad part of the Deuter products is that the silicone mouth piece on the water hose has to be purchased as an entire plastic replacement mouthpiece if the soft silicone starts to leak air. I chewed through the silicone once in the winter when it iced up.

I easily fit all 10 essentials into an Osprey Talon 22, with room for my lunch and a bowl and bag of kibbles for Gryffin. My bar is "survival", however, not comfort. 40L Osprey Stratos for winter - that one could be a 50L and not be too big. Yes, in both cases, I have things organized by stuff sack. It's really easy to pull out the right sack without losing any other bit of contents. It goes back into place easier, too.

Tim

If the pack fits you and is comfortable and is close to the right size, that's good enough in my book! It's easy to find a cheap small pack if you want to have some options. In any case, 30L doesn't seem too big to me for a 15 mile hike (as opposed to a trail run).

TJsName said:

For me I use a 24 liter pack and it works quite well for what I need. I'm a big dude and I carry a middle of the road amount of extra gear when I hike, depending on the weather. I haven't tried this pack for winter hiking yet, so we'll see!

Best,
T.J.

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Thanks for the information. Truth is, TJ, I have "Osprey envy" - I'm just one of those unfortunates who doesn't fit well in Ospreys - that Stratos looks fantastic! Sleepy_Mike the Deuter packs were exactly what I needed in the midst of trying Osprey after Osprey (I must be on REI's no-fly list by now with all the packs I've returned).

My winter pack is the Act Zero 45-60, used it to backpack in and hike Kings Peak last summer and expect it will be a perfect pack for me this winter - it cinches down nicely. I may just order the Kestrel and the Act Trail 28 and try them all before my VISA bill catches up to me. Fair weather is months away and I don't want to be messing around with this in the throws of good weather!

bikehikeskifish said:

My bar is "survival", however, not comfort.

Tim

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Curious what things you do without in order to keep weight and size down that most of us might otherwise be carrying. And also, do you have anything tied/hanging on the 22L pack because it doesn't fit? I recall the winter backpack list/photos you sent me when I first got up and running here on VFTT and I seem to remember a lot of stuff outside the pack. I can't stand having crap lashed all over my pack so I use the larger pack so everything is inside and out of the way. I know I carry too much stuff but hiking alone I'd prefer to have it and just get used to the weight in case on that rare 1 day in 100 I need one of those items.

P.S. I also took your advice and have color coded stuff sacks (although not the compressible type) that I categorize stuff in for easy finding and replacing. That was a good tip. I'm a slow learner Tim but I am learning!

Peppersass said:

Thanks for the information. Truth is, TJ, I have "Osprey envy" - I'm just one of those unfortunates who doesn't fit well in Ospreys - that Stratos looks fantastic! Sleepy_Mike the Deuter packs were exactly what I needed in the midst of trying Osprey after Osprey (I must be on REI's no-fly list by now with all the packs I've returned).

My winter pack is the Act Zero 45-60, used it to backpack in and hike Kings Peak last summer and expect it will be a perfect pack for me this winter - it cinches down nicely. I may just order the Kestrel and the Act Trail 28 and try them all before my VISA bill catches up to me. Fair weather is months away and I don't want to be messing around with this in the throws of good weather!

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EMS or REI might allow you to rent packs you are interested in. Might be worthwhile. I know that I found my wife's pack on clearance at EMS for $50, so it might be worth wandering around a few stores to see what's there and what fits.

I did say that 40L could probably be 50L and then everything would fit comfortably inside. The z-rest does get beat up on the outside. The snowshoes probably will never end up in the pack, and the bottles hang in cozies on the outside - I don't like to stop for more than a minute or two, especially in winter.

I don't bother with rain pants - they are pretty worthless except for butt sliding. If I am moving, they only make me sweat and nylon pants are quick-drying. I do have two contractor garbage bags which provide as much as the pants in a survival situation. I can even squeeze a hardshell and a softshell in if I really want - the softshell generally provides most of the protection I am looking for. Hat/gloves/goretex mitten shells/extra shirt all fit in a stuff sack. Knife/whistle/first aid take up very little space. Clif Bars easily fill up the empty spaces between stuff sacks.

I am likely to get Gryffin a pack for winter so he can carry some liquid water and food for himself. He seems OK with eating snow in the absence of liquid water, although I know this can lower his core temp.

Maybe you can explain why you cannot fit everything in 22L? I know a lot of people who make do with 14L or thereabouts. To them, 22L is big. I know for certain I had more stuff than 95% of the other day hikers in the Grand Canyon / Bright Angel Trail last week. Only the backpackers had bigger packs. The Osprey Talon 22 was a very popular pack that day.

Tim

p.s. in three+ full winter rounds, I have been absolutely alone (no people, cars, or fresh tracks visible for the entire day) at most five times.

bikehikeskifish said:

I did say that 40L could probably be 50L and then everything would fit comfortably inside. The z-rest does get beat up on the outside. The snowshoes probably will never end up in the pack, and the bottles hang in cozies on the outside - I don't like to stop for more than a minute or two, especially in winter.

I don't bother with rain pants - they are pretty worthless except for butt sliding. If I am moving, they only make me sweat and nylon pants are quick-drying. I do have two contractor garbage bags which provide as much as the pants in a survival situation. I can even squeeze a hardshell and a softshell in if I really want - the softshell generally provides most of the protection I am looking for. Hat/gloves/goretex mitten shells/extra shirt all fit in a stuff sack. Knife/whistle/first aid take up very little space. Clif Bars easily fill up the empty spaces between stuff sacks.

I am likely to get Gryffin a pack for winter so he can carry some liquid water and food for himself. He seems OK with eating snow in the absence of liquid water, although I know this can lower his core temp.

Maybe you can explain why you cannot fit everything in 22L? I know a lot of people who make do with 14L or thereabouts. To them, 22L is big. I know for certain I had more stuff than 95% of the other day hikers in the Grand Canyon / Bright Angel Trail last week. Only the backpackers had bigger packs. The Osprey Talon 22 was a very popular pack that day.

Tim

p.s. in three+ full winter rounds, I have been absolutely alone (no people, cars, or fresh tracks visible for the entire day) at most five times.

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In summer I'm sure I could downsize out of my 50L Kelty if I really wanted to. I used an EMS 30L model for years but I just didn't like how interior pockets were organized. I usually have too many clothes in summer (or at least certainly more than most people and most of which I never wear but the weight is minimal so it really doesn't bug me to have "in case"). I have quite a bit of crap in my first aid/"McGyver" bag that adds most of my weight (various fire starting things, paracord, duct tape and a bunch of other stuff you read that you should carry but I have yet to use and quite frankly seems like I'll never use so I've been eliminating stuff). I did use my lighter once for a guy who had no matches to light his cigar on the Franconia Brook Trail. That has been the McGyver bag's most important purpose to date. I also carry a survival knife which is 16oz I'll probably never use either. So in summer I am confident I could certainly shed some weight and space if I wanted to.

In winter I'd struggle. From what I can tell I get cold easier than most people so I'm a little skittish about not having plenty of layer and shell options. I used my Kelty 50 last year and it just didn't seem to have enough room. I got a 90L Kelty model (which has plenty of room) as much for the space as for the harness/straps/belting because it carries much more comfortably with the added weight of all the winter crap. I have been carrying my z-fold inside it (which takes up quite a bit of the volume) and my two OR Nalgene coozies with water also ride inside. That is easily a 1/3 of the pack so my winter gear is really going into 60L or less. I have tried a wide variety of clothing and layers the past two winters and have yet to find my "system" yet so I'm sure some space will go away when I get that in order. But I read all these posts about people who carry back up goggles, back up gloves, extra layers in case you fall in a river and get wet, thermos' full of soup an hot chocolate, etc, etc, etc and I can't see how all that is getting crammed into a 30L or 40L pack unless half the stuff is tied to it on the outside or it is severely compressed in sacks.

This will be my third full winter hiking season so now that I have a comfort level with what is involved and what I need I'm sure I'll continue to scale back what I'm willing to carry. Winter hiking with a 30L pack will likely never happen for me. I really don't give a crap about the size of my pack but I need to get the weight down.

The point of compression sacks is to compress. Why do you fear this very useful space saving feature?

I also find 90% of my stuff is just along for the ride and so why not optimize for that case?

Do you stop and remove your pack every time you need a drink?

Tim

I have packs for every occasion. For a short hike or with friends, and on a trail, I pack small. The farther and higher, the more pack I carry. Solo, or in shoulder seasons, or off trail, carry a much larger pack.

I have the same pack as you. Excepting for changes in clothing due to Seasonal weather variation,
I carry the same stuff for three season use. There is always enough room and I think I could do a one or two summer overnight using it. I operate with the belief that it takes one unscheduled night in the woods without the 10 essentials and warm clothes to teach an unwanted lesson.

In summer I use a 20L pack. I made the switch after getting tired of lugging around a larger pack for years. When I found myself bringing 20 lbs on a 3hr 8 mile hike I said enough is enough. So I ultralighted all my gear and got it to 6.5 lbs dry without food. Add 2.5L water and lunch and it all comes in at 12-13 lbs and fits in 20L. I can jam in another L but it pushes the packs comfort range. I do it in hot days with no issue as the wt drops in the first hour or two. This is a summer pack without bad weather above treeline gear and it covers most hikes until fall.

Then when night temps drop into the 20s I switch to a 40L winter pack with the appropriate gear. I also have a 50L winter pack when I need to carry more gear. In hindsight one 45L pack would have been ideal for me for winter.

Peakbagr said:

I have packs for every occasion. For a short hike or with friends, and on a trail, I pack small. The farther and higher, the more pack I carry. Solo, or in shoulder seasons, or off trail, carry a much larger pack.

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I'm similar. Different size packs for different seasons. I've cut down on the weight I use to carry in the younger days; that's for sure!

bikehikeskifish said:

The point of compression sacks is to compress. Why do you fear this very useful space saving feature?

I also find 90% of my stuff is just along for the ride and so why not optimize for that case?

Do you stop and remove your pack every time you need a drink?

Tim

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I use the Sea To Summit dry bags and most of my stuff compresses reasonably well when you roll down the collar (say a 1:3 ratio or something along those lines). I did buy a compression sack for certain uses but I found the straps annoying on it when opening/closing so I stopped using. And most of the stuff like fire starters and the like are not compressible anyway so the sacks are more about organization than space.

As far as water I do usually stop. I used to use (well use off and on - still undecided) a small Ribz type set up (because of course I have no space! ) that I'd put essentials in to avoid stopping (compass, camera, an 18oz Hydroflask, toilet paper, clotting gauze and other stuff that is super easy to have at your fingertips or super important to get as fast as possible). I find I need to force myself to stop at periodic intervals to give my legs a breather and avoid overheating (say every 2 hours or so) so that's when I'll normally chug some water and eat something. Because I do all of my hikes as day hikes with lengthy amounts of driving I've found these periodic stops are better over all for avoiding cramps on the drive home and fatigue in the following few days (I am not in anywhere near the kind of shape you are). In the past I would just crank it out of the woods to get finished up. Now I make it a point to break it into intervals for rest/water/food even if I don't feel tired, thirsty or hungry. For whatever reason I find I need far less water in winter despite what most people say about needing more. As I've experimented I've found I get much better performance hydrating and eating on my drive up to hike which probably contributes to why I seem to need less during the hike.

If I get a chance I'll take a picture of all my stuff laid out on the floor like the winter gear planogram you sent me a few years back. When you're feeling a little down or frustrated you can look at the photo and get a good, hearty laugh at the expense of the day-tripping flatlander!