Offshoot of Tucks Crampon & Ice Axe Thread

I didnt want to blow up Tucks thread. But I was wondering, my belief is the general hike/climb community is a very self reliant one. Maybe I'm wrong. I learned most of what I know from reading plenty of books, and from trying things out. Yet often, in these "modern" times we often refer someone to a pro for lessons even for basic stuff. I miss the young dumb stuff I did (not all of it!!) figuring out these tools and techniques. I can say with certainty, my self taught learning on mts how to push when exhausted, how to accept defeat when ur getting blasted on the alpine garden yet sooo close, and to relish those few winter days we get with incredible summit views, etc... These are life skills that set you apart in your every day life. At least I feel they do. This is part of the love I have for the solo aspect.

I'm not making light of the potential life and death of winter trips. I have a picture of a blizzard on Eisenhower. Mid 90's I was near the summit and lost. I walked in circles for a bit but couldn't retrace back, the wind was covering my tracks almost instantly. That was, to date of my 42 years of life, and I've had more than 1 gun pointed at me, the most deep fear i've ever felt. BY FAR. I was terrified. I had no bearing, no idea where the hell I was headed and this was a very bad storm. That sound the wind makes when it cuts through you, and everything s going well, I love it! That day was different, it was horrific. I was able to find a cairn, even thought they are huge it took me a while!! and I collapsed against it and hunkered down to get my head in the right spot. I had cheap paracord and wrapped the rocks from the cairn around it and slowly started finding the next cairn. It wasn't perfect, my cord wasnt long enough, but it was enough of a security blanket. I made it off. Next day the Boston Globe reported a "snow shoe" guy died on the mt. He was an attorney from Boston. I felt horrible. I never saw a person on the trial that day. Always wondered what happened to him.

I'd like to know how many of us posting here have taken pro winter classes or have most of us learned from doing and from the mistakes we've made.

I am a book guy and a learn from doing. But certainly not adverse to classes. I was lucky enough to solo pinnacle in hunningtons on a great day and a few other low level ice climbs, but I am thinking of a class and doing more technical climbs in the years to come. I wouldn't dare do anything like that again without some formal training.

Hi Biscut,

I am glad you lived to tell the tale of your harrowing experience. What I have learned about winter hiking and navigating has been amassed from the advice of others, what I have learned the hard way, and a previous background of survival skills, which I researched extensively before I ever decided to pursue the NH4Ks.

We are all aware of how weather is the determining factor of a pleasant versus potentially life threatening outing. I have not taken any official courses, but I feel that I am well-versed enough to properly use crampons under dangerous conditions. That being said, I also posses the self-preservation to turn back when things get truly hairy. I say this but in reality I have been in more than one situation where I probably should have bailed out but persevered on.

My comfort level is now lower, since my son was born last winter. I am now more cautious than ever, but I do not see most of my winter outings as foul-hardy. I am confident in my ability to successfully complete a solo winter ascent, but my primary focus will forever be upon safety.

To sum up all of this verbiage, no, I have not had any official training. My experience coupled with that which I have been fortunate enough to gain from others is what amasses to the sum of my winter hiking training.

Be well

Z

BISCUT said:

I'd like to know how many of us posting here have taken pro winter classes or have most of us learned from doing and from the mistakes we've made.

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There's a 3rd, "in-between" option: participating in trips and courses offered by volunteer leaders under the auspices of renowned non-profits such as the AMC, Sierra Club, as well as numerous smaller organizations. These organizations exist because their members want to promote conservation and recreational use of our dwindling open spaces. By sharing their time and expertise with others, the club's volunteers are furthering the mission by helping to broaden the base of folks who are actively supportive of the outdoor cause. I've learned amazing amounts of stuff from skilled AMC leaders, and have also had the pleasure of sharing my own expertise with participants in trips and courses that I've led. Winter-wise, the club offers excellent courses and trips at all skill levels, covering anything from basic snowshoeing to things like winter backpacking and camping, off-trail navigation and travel, rock and ice climbing, basic mountaineering technique, glacier travel and crevasse rescue, backcountry skiing, leadership skills, etc. The AMC offers literally thousands of events over the course of a year, the vast majority of which are volunteer-led, which removes staffing costs from the price equation. Most are open to non-members, based on the hope that the folks who engage will see first hand the value of the club's work, and become members.

So rather than two points, I submit that we've got a 3-point spectrum of options to gain experience and skills, from which each of us will choose an appropriate mix:

- individual research and experimentation
- participation in volunteer-run trips and courses
- participation in commercial trips and courses

In my own case, all three elements have played significant roles in my development as a multifaceted outdoor enthusiast.

Alex

I was troubled youth. My Mom sent me on a 7 day trip into the Whites, led by a Green Beret. We slept in hammocks and climbed 4k's, some of the other kids hated it, I was in heaven. From the day on is was the mountains for me. When I was 15, I would hitchhike from Merrimack NH to the Whites, winter and summer for multiday trips, winter and summer. I learned everything the hard way. I had a 30 dollar tent, a 25 doller sleeping bag and Hermon survivors for boots. That being said, I'm not sure that is the best way or the only way to learn. I agree with Alex, learning from group hikes and or taking courses might be a good mix. to be honest as rewarding as my time and learning was, I was lucky to survive. My little tent is still somewhere on the Carter Range. I left it during the night when I was freezing to death, I knew I would not make it through the night and was lucky to get out. So maybe a balance of learning is appropiate for the safety and longevity of a carrer in the mountains.

Alex's spectrum can be further subdivided: between "individual" and "volunteer-run group" there's "informal group", i.e., learning from friends and acquaintances. Partnering up is a good idea for many reasons, and one of them is that you can learn from what others do. (Sometimes you'll decide to imitate them, sometimes you'll decide to avoid imitating them.) When you're starting out in technical climbing, finding an experienced partner is just about mandatory, but you can also learn, for example, by seeing what's in an acquaintance's pack.

nartreb said:

Alex's spectrum can be further subdivided: between "individual" and "volunteer-run group" there's "informal group", i.e., learning from friends and acquaintances. Partnering up is a good idea for many reasons, and one of them is that you can learn from what others do. (Sometimes you'll decide to imitate them, sometimes you'll decide to avoid imitating them.) When you're starting out in technical climbing, finding an experienced partner is just about mandatory, but you can also learn, for example, by seeing what's in an acquaintance's pack.

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Agreed, that is exactly what this form provides.

"The mountain spares most fools."

My favorite line from the WMG. May be long gone but it used to be in the section on Washington and the Northern Pressies. I learned what to avoid and options for doing things correctly by reading Accidents in North American Mountaineering, reading VFTT, and reading mountaineering books. I also learned to extend myself only so far as to not hang myself if something went wrong. I began by wandering for miles in the woods growing up in rural NY as a young boy. I had to learn to navigate by dead reckoning and memory as I had no maps nor compasses and trails did not exist. This gave me a good baseline of what expansive woods were like. Beyond that, trial and error and intuition have been my guides. I have always hiked solo most of the time. A solo backpacking trip in April in the Pemi many years ago taught me much. I learned to loosen my boots and laces in order to more easily put on frozen boots. I learned on the unbroken Desolation Trail that sometimes a crampon can stick to the snow, but if the entire block of snow comes loose, you fall anyway. I lost trails on that trip and followed stream beds in some cases. Ultimately, I found myself at Zealand Hut and learned that sometimes, a warm fire and friendly caretaker is a nice alternative. And I learned that all important lesson about Spring break in NH. Daytona Beach, it ain't. I thruhiked the AT southbound and finished in February. There were many days on snowshoes and more than a few single digit nights in the Virginia mountains. Day after day taught me how to maintain my core temperature in a more moderate winter than NH sees. That translated well to the more extreme winters in the northeast.

I tend to take calculated risks, but like summit seeker, as a Dad myself, I avoid things with extreme consequences for the most part. I'm comfortable traveling solo in the mountains in winter because I'm comfortable with the cold, but I'm not doing technical routes or traveling in high risk avalanche terrain.

I started by just sleeping outside almost sixty years ago. I started taking courses when I began ice climbing and teaching Outdoor Ed. I was shocked at how some of my regular practices could be dangerous, particularly when you are responsible for other (young) people. I think we can pretty much learn the winter stuff by practice, but when technical gear becomes involved (piolet, ice tools, harness and ropes) we owe it to ourselves and others to join an organisation that offers and/or arranges recognised training: NOLS, AmericanAlpine Club, Alpine Club of Canada, or a certified (FIAGM) guiding service. Just my opinion.