Three Specific Questions On Ice Axe

I plan on venturing out onto some of the more major above treeline peaks this year so I've been reading up on Ice Axe threads the past few weeks. I bought a general mountaineering ice axe last year that I have yet to need/use for anything but now that there is some probability of it being put into use I want to be sure I use it correctly.

One thing I have learned to this point is that most ice axe threads rapidly degrade into arguments about whether or not they are needed, references to "definitive classic books" that aren't available anymore, mandatory need for expensive professional training and a wide variety of conversations pertaining to technical ice climbing that do not apply to my circumstance.

SO... let me clarify as much as possible the "scope" of my question before a throng of well meaning posts leads off in a thousand different directions. Based on what I have read, I think it would be beneficial to carry an ice axe so I am going to. No need to talk me out of it. I am not doing any technical climbing whatsoever. Based on what I've read it would be on steep, firm snow that I would possibly use my axe, ascending and descending. If it is steep with hard ice I will likely be retreating into the trees where possible to avoid or turning around. I will not be attending a professional class. If the necessity of even needing an axe is unlikely/debatable then I assume there is a fairly small number of techniques and training that would be applicable to what I would encounter. Spending a huge amount of money to learn techniques I will never use is not an option. It sounds like the "self arrest" technique is the only one in my circumstance worthy of an actual course and I assume that is not taught by itself.

My three questions are:

1) What is the correct position to carry the axe when ASCENDING a steep snowfield/packed snow - uphill hand, point down, where is spike aiming?
2) What is the correct position to carry the axe when DESCENDING a steep snowfield/packed snow - am I literally walking in a "self arrest" ready pose or is it same position as ascending, i.e. uphill hand, point down, etc?
3) Leash - attach to wrist or attach to body somewhere? I assume you don't reattach to respective wrist every time you switch hands. That would be incredibly tedious and time consuming. What about backpack waist belt - wrist too short for that?

Pictures, YouTube videos or first hand explanations from people with experience for this limited scope would be appreciated. I'm not opposed to buying a book if it is actually available and is not largely about things I will never do. I always seem to come away with more questions than answers when reading these threads due to the wide variety of perspectives and experiences that everyone brings to the table. Appreciate the help as always.

DayTrip said:

1) What is the correct position to carry the axe when ASCENDING a steep snowfield/packed snow - uphill hand, point down, where is spike aiming?
2) What is the correct position to carry the axe when DESCENDING a steep snowfield/packed snow - am I literally walking in a "self arrest" ready pose or is it same position as ascending, i.e. uphill hand, point down, etc?
3) Leash - attach to wrist or attach to body somewhere? I assume you don't reattach to respective wrist every time you switch hands. That would be incredibly tedious and time consuming. What about backpack waist belt - wrist too short for that?

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Well, I'll start the whirlwind of controversial responses

1 and 2. Believe it or not, there's disagreement about that. One school advocates the pick should aim forward, for natural use as the terrain gets steeper. Another school advocates the picck should aim back, for faster transition to self arrest position. I don't think it's really important; do what makes sense to you. And yes, uphill hand, spike down in snow, in general. (The spike is the point on the end of the handle.)

2. Most people I know teach not to attach the wrist strap to you. Too inconvenient, and slows self arrest response. The worry is losing the axe. Chouinard: "Cultivate a habit of holding on to your ice axe." The wrist strap is mostly useful in "piolet traction" (pulling on the axe to move up very steep terrain), which it does not sound lilke you plan to do.

Good luck and have fun! (And do take a brief self arrest class from someone. You might be able to get an "isolated" class on just that if you look around. It's fairly standardized, and a couple hours of instruction and practice are a good idea for that important skill.)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Thinking that an ice axe is only for one purpose is thinking that Duct Tape only has 1 purpose!

1. In my experience and during courses I always carried it with the pick facing aft. This is how we were taught to self arrest.

2. Descending, assuming you need to use the axe, the adze faces away from you and is used in the 'piolet rampe' style.

3. I always had/have the strap 'dragonne' on my wrist because I am a clutz - the only kid never allowed to help with the dishes. In technical situations it is strapped to your harness.

THAT being said:

If you are asking these questions and anticipate using your piolet where and when you need to know the answers, TAKE a course. The American Alpine Club have many chapters across the nation, as does the Alping Cub of Canada. Courses are at a reduced cost and often free. Also, you will hook up with people who can show you the ropes.

Another also: shops such as Eastern Mountain offer outings with qualified guides.

Please have safe fun.

Practice, practice, practice. (Without crampons) There's no point carrying an axe if you aren't going to be able to stop yourself.

All that having been said, I use crampons in the Adirondacks far more ofrten than my piolet, which usually stays on my pack.

I carry my axe with my hand on the Adze at all times. I also, always use a leash fixed to my wrist. When I fix the length of my leash my hand is 3 or 4 inches above the spike.

sierra said:

I carry my axe with my hand on the Adze at all times. I also, always use a leash fixed to my wrist. When I fix the length of my leash my hand is 3 or 4 inches above the spike.

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Spoken like a man who has had to chase an ax!! My first ax was a Charlet Moser, a little heavy but good to go. I had a slide below the alluvial fan in Hunnington and lost my ax. What a run that was!! I found a leash about 80cm with a velcro closure for the wrist. Have had it for probably 20 years. Can't fing another one like it for my lighter ax i like to carry.

Side note, I have larger hands, so I don't carry by the adze, I carry with my hand spread out over the adze and pick union. Go to a decent slope and have fun learning! Snow is awesome!

Chouinard lists 9 different axe positions: 3 for snow, 4 for ascending steep ice, and 2 for descending. I described them briefly in http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?15140-ice-axe-technique&p=167858&viewfull=1#post167858. (Read the entire thread--there is more useful info within.)

Get the book--copies are readily available. ("Climbing Ice", by Yvon Chouinard) Amazon lists quite a few copies...

Ice axes have 3 potentially lethal points and people have died and been seriously injured from/by them. Get competent instruction.

It has been said (with some justification) that one should not carry an ice axe if one does not know how to use it...

Doug

'One should not carry an ice axe if one does not know how to use it.' Chouinard's book was about 'la technique française'. Once again, 'Get competent instruction.'

Thank you, Doug

DougPaul said:

Chouinard lists 9 different axe positions: 3 for snow, 4 for ascending steep ice, and 2 for descending. I described them briefly in http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?15140-ice-axe-technique&p=167858&viewfull=1#post167858. (Read the entire thread--there is more useful info within.)

Get the book--copies are readily available. ("Climbing Ice", by Yvon Chouinard) Amazon lists quite a few copies...

Ice axes have 3 potentially lethal points and people have died and been seriously injured from/by them. Get competent instruction.

It has been said (with some justification) that one should not carry an ice axe if one does not know how to use it...

Doug

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This was actually the thread that prompted my questions. Came across it looking for something else earlier. People seemed to agree very little with just about anything in it however, including the availability of the book (which was back in 2006 so I figured it was likely gone now in favor of updated books or preferably videos now that we live in the YouTube era).

I'll use your 2006 reply as an outline for further research. You sound like you do far more technical climbs than anything I'll be doing so I assumed a lot of the detailed information you were providing would not be applicable to me. Appreciate those very detailed answers and references as always.

David Metsky said:

Practice, practice, practice. (Without crampons) There's no point carrying an axe if you aren't going to be able to stop yourself.

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That is the plan once I learn the proper technique, which for some reason seems to be a heavily guarded secret no one is willing to share. Does VFTT get royalties for the sale of every copy of Choinard's "Climbing Ice"?

DayTrip said:

This was actually the thread that prompted my questions. Came across it looking for something else earlier. People seemed to agree very little with just about anything in it however, including the availability of the book (which was back in 2006 so I figured it was likely gone now in favor of updated books or preferably videos now that we live in the YouTube era).

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Thanks for researching before asking the forum.

I checked Amazon just prior to my post--used copies appear to be readily available at reasonable prices. IMO, the book is worth reprinting...

I'll use your 2006 reply as an outline for further research. You sound like you do far more technical climbs than anything I'll be doing so I assumed a lot of the detailed information you were providing would not be applicable to me. Appreciate those very detailed answers and references as always.

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I used to rock and ice climb--haven't done any in quite a few years now.

The dividing line between technical climbing and hiking can be rather fuzzy in winter and the same route can quickly change from one classification to the other with either time or location. Also routes such as Lions Head (winter route) could be classed as easy technical but are often done by people with only hiking skills and equipment. (Note: I haven't done this route recently so I don't know what it is currently like. When I first did it, it was definitely a snow climb.)

Doug

DayTrip: the "secrets" are revealed this excellent video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM3xLshmNnk

Jeff List said:

DayTrip: the "secrets" are revealed this excellent video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM3xLshmNnk

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Looks generally reasonable...

However, two points:
1) When he first describes the position of the axe during self-arrest, it looks like he is holding the adz against his shoulder or collar bone. (This is a good way to injure yourself...) However (particularly in the demonstration of head-first on your back arrest) you can see that the adz is clear of his shoulder during the actual arrest.

2) He describes only the "always on your knees" technique. One should always do this when wearing crampons, but there are two schools of thought when not wearing crampons: always use the knees (to develop a single set of reflexes) or use the toes (because you will get better braking). Naturally there are advocates for either technique... (Either works as long as you don't make the mistake of using your toes when wearing crampons. Catching a crampon is a good way to break your ankle/leg and/or get flipped over. If you get flipped, you have little chance of arresting successfully.)

I would like to underline a comment in the video--practice under the eye of an instructor who can correct any incorrect technique before you harm yourself.

Also note how the instructor climbs the slope at the beginning of the video--he is using piolet canne (cane position)--probably the most common position that hikers/climbers will use on moderately steep snow. He has the pick pointed backward which is probably most appropriate for hikers. (Again there are two schools of thought--more technically oriented climbers may choose to point the pick forward.)

Doug

Well I guess I certainly am not getting the Chouinard royalties, because I'd say you'd do just as well with "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills" which is in print and is probably at your local gear store.

http://www.neilhopkins.us/mountaineering-guide-2/using-the-ice-axe.html

http://www.neilhopkins.us/mountaineering-guide-2/ascending-snow.html

It ain't rocket science. Stick the long pointy end deep in the snow, and you've got a hand-hold. If you start to slide, put the curvy pointy part into the snow and HANG ON TIGHT. The best way to do that is illustrated in various places mentioned above. It's crucial to arrest IMMEDIATELY, so go to your local sledding hill and practice... a lot. Backwards, upside down, with a big backpack on, with a running start, etc. You'll quickly discover what works and what doesn't.

There are some little tricks regarding leash management - don't make the leash too long (your hand should stay on the shaft if you slide it down), make sure you've got an easy-to-grab-with-mittens-on mechanism for releasing the leash so you can change hands,...

You can easily make your own leash with a bit of cord.

One last tip is to tightly wrap the head of the axe with a thin cord (while leaving the point and adze free). This will give you better grip and will also make an amazing difference in keeping you warm by insulating your hand from the cold metal.

DayTrip said:

1) What is the correct position to carry the axe when ASCENDING a steep snowfield/packed snow - uphill hand, point down, where is spike aiming?
2) What is the correct position to carry the axe when DESCENDING a steep snowfield/packed snow - am I literally walking in a "self arrest" ready pose or is it same position as ascending, i.e. uphill hand, point down, etc?
3) Leash - attach to wrist or attach to body somewhere? I assume you don't reattach to respective wrist every time you switch hands. That would be incredibly tedious and time consuming. What about backpack waist belt - wrist too short for that?

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1. If you are front-pointing directly up a steep slope, there is no uphill/downhill hand, so carry in whichever hand is most comfortable, probably your dominant hand. You can carry with the pick pointed forward, holding the ax just below the head, and jam the pick into the snow/ice in front of you to function as a hand hold. Or if the snow conditions allow, you can carry by the head with your hand at the midpoint between adze and pick and plunge the shaft into the snow to function as a hand hold. This hold is also faster to self arrest from. Both of these holds work, and choice will depend on conditions and which makes you feel more stable (the objective is to NOT FALL).

If you are traversing a steep slope, hold the ax by the head midway between adze and pick (as above) with your UPHILL hand, pick pointed back, and if possible plunge the shaft into the snow to function as a stabilizing hand hold. If conditions don't allow you to plunge the shaft in, hold it the same way, but use it more like a cane to stabilize you and PREVENT YOU FROM FALLING.

2. Hold the ax by the head midway between pick and adze, pick pointed back. If you're sort of traversing, hold it in your uphill hand. If going straight down, either hand will do. Do whatever gives you the most stability and makes you least likely to fall. Some bend their knees and use the shaft like a cane/ski pole. Others just hold it because bending down puts them off balance. Do what's comfortable and DON'T FALL. Most people don't carry their axes in self-arrest pose (i.e. one hand on head, other on shaft) because one's balances is usually better if at least one hand is free to move around in space.

3. Don't use a leash. They're a PITA and more likely to make you lose concentration and fall. Which you don't want to do.

In summary, you'll almost always be carrying your ax by the head with the pick pointed back behind you in your uphill hand (if there is one). The exception is when you're front-pointing steep snow, in which case there is another option.

And if I haven't made it patently obvious, it is FAR more desirable to not fall than it is to arrest once you have fallen. So focus on not falling. There's an analogy with avalanche safety: some folks get overly focused on what they'll do if they get caught in an avalanche, when the reality is getting caught in an avalanche is very, very bad; one should do whatever they can to prevent that from happening. Same with ice axes and crampons, if you've fallen you're immediately in a very bad situation. Better to not find yourself there. So hone your crampon technique and focus on not falling. (With the corollary that your survival chances are somewhat better if you have decent self-arrest technique if you do fall).

hikerbrian said:

And if I haven't made it patently obvious, it is FAR more desirable to not fall than it is to arrest once you have fallen. So focus on not falling.

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To reinforce this point, I'll add that before venturing onto a slope that requires using an ice axe, the climber should evaluate the consequences of falling at that location if a self arrest is not successful. In some cases, use of a rope and belaying is appropriate.