Two Rescued From Garfield

I also think keying on the clothes vs. being lost may be misquided. Cotton inofitself doesn't kill. Wet cotton, and not being able to change out of it, can be a killer. I wear cotton all the time, admittedly notsomuch in the winter. I love it the summer, as long as I have a change of non-cotton clothes to change into.

If they weren't misplaced, the cotton may not have been much of a problem.

hikerbrian said:

I mean, I enjoy a good slap on the ass as much as the next guy, but can you point out to me where I wrote cotton on any level is ok? Thanks

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The original article indicated they were wearing it. Just looks like an indirect reference.

Perhaps a better sign on the summit of Lafayette would have prevented this. On the list at the summit there are 3 signs. 2 for Greenleaf Tr and 1 for Franconia Ridge Tr. All are pointing correctly but there is no sign for the Garfield Ridge Tr. During FOT48 this year the summit was in the clouds. As we headed off to descend via Skookumchuck Tr, we came across and sent one party back from North Lafayette that thought they were headed to the hut and another pair thet we met lower on the Skook thought they were headed down to Lafayette Place where they started. A member of our group gave them a lift as it had begun to rain steadily.

jniehof said:

For those who are new around here or haven't been paying attention, this "missing the turn off Lafayette" thing comes up probably about annually. Somebody posted the exact magnetic bearing to the Greenleaf trail off the summit once, but I can't find it back. In the meantime, one should be able to pull a reasonable bearing off one's map and determine if one is descending along that line...or stay home when the visibility's bad.

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I've been up there in pretty mild conditions but in an unexpected whiteout nonetheless and a member of our group took the wrong turn but thankfully recognized the terrain was off based on her experience/recollection of the trail (she was unable to hear our whistles and we didn't see her tracks). It might seem obvious to experienced hikers but whenever I'm with less experienced hikers I remind them about that turn. It's cost at least one person their life: http://www.summitpost.org/mount-lafayette/additions-corrections/150537. I doubt they'll alter the trail but maybe they could move the junction away from the summit by a small distance so that it would be significantly harder to miss the junction?

Now that we are in 2015, it will be interesting to see how these cases play out.

I agree that experience and attitude are far better measures of your ability to survive than a checklist of gear.

That said, experienced people with the right attitude will have the gear they need to survive. The ten essentials is a good, working, and practical list for most experienced and inexperienced hikers. It is easy for F&G to check off a list whether one had this gear or not. It is next to impossible to determine whether one has the requisite knowledge to use it and the frame of mind to keep composed in an emergency situation. A list of accomplishments or resume is even difficult to use as we have even seen at this point that anyone can be dragged up the world's tallest mountain given enough money. It's not to say that a hiking resume would not provide some help in making these decisions, but there are going to be some tough cases to judge. Where F&G chooses to land in these grey areas will be interesting to watch. Will they err on the side of the hiker or not when there is doubt?

Bombadil said:

I've been up there in pretty mild conditions but in an unexpected whiteout nonetheless and a member of our group took the wrong turn but thankfully recognized the terrain was off based on her experience/recollection of the trail (she was unable to hear our whistles and we didn't see her tracks). It might seem obvious to experienced hikers but whenever I'm with less experienced hikers I remind them about that turn. It's cost at least one person their life: http://www.summitpost.org/mount-lafayette/additions-corrections/150537. I doubt they'll alter the trail but maybe they could move the junction away from the summit by a small distance so that it would be significantly harder to miss the junction?

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It would seem this could be remedied easily enough with new/different signage or a minor reroute. As much as I'd like to think people would be more prepared, able to navigate, etc. it is unlikely. It won't prevent every mishap from occurring but I would think would prevent some at least and the accompanying rescues/rescue costs. As with many other things, preventing it from happening in the first place is better than coming up with cheaper ways to deal with the consequences.

Many organizations, not just F&G, tend to value what is measurable, rather than measure what is valuable (which may be hard). As far as assessing one's ability to navigate, I don't think it needs to be that complicated: After passing the summit of Lafayette did you follow a north bearing or a west bearing? No idea? Negligent.

Same is true with the (common) "wrong turn at Mitzpah" problem: Why were you trending east instead of west? Didn't know you were trending east? Negligent.

It is trivial to prevent these wrong turns, and to definitively diagnose and correct a mistake if one is made, with even a cursory understanding of map and compass. That's all I'm saying.

Unfortunately, using that "navigation negligence" criterion, many (most?) hikers would be considered negligent. At least over here in the ADKs, there are crowds of hikers who navigate exclusively by trail signs and markers. If you put them in the woods 100' from the trail, they'd be totally lost. So while I agree that folks should have those basic skills if they want to venture out, on an ongoing basis many or most people just will not have those skills.

(As an aside, much signage is horribly done, just about everywhere; not only on trails, but on roads, in airports, etc.. Signage is so obviously bad in so many places that it must be more dificult than I think to do it well. Finding more people negligent will provide an excuse to continue to do a lousy job of signage.)

So I might hold navigation to an even easier criterion: "When you realized you were going the wrong way, did you stop and backtrack to a point where you knew where you were?"

TCD said:

So I might hold navigation to an even easier criterion: "When you realized you were going the wrong way, did you stop and backtrack to a point where you knew where you were?"

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This gets right to the point of the matter (re: nagivation).

Seeing that my initials are MAP, I'll have to say that navigation is key. The other thread I read today was Tuck's Owl's Head attempt and he's probably picked up his GPS so he can find the BB next time.

Signs, especially above treeline can be blown by the wind so they are twisted, broken or removed. In winter, the blazes are covered so moving the junction lower would not solve missing the turn if you moved a "new" junction 30 yards if the visibility is very poor. In the woods, the signs can be buried in the deep snow. In cold below zero temps, GPS batteries may fail so map and compass provide your surest way but you do need to be able to orient your map. It's easy on a clear day, trying to do it in a tempest and with poor visibility is another matter. If unsure, it's best to stay below treeline where in many places being off the trail is pretty obvious. (The woods on parts of the North Carter Trail and the Avalon trail between the Willey Range Trail and Avalon are two places where the woods can be tricky.)

And while dry cotton won't kill, keeping it dry in the winter is very hard. You don't need TNF or Patagonia fleece, 100% Polyester fleece from a discount chain will insulate you even if wet. You should be able to get fleece for about the same price as a 100% cotton sweatshirt.

hikerbrian said:

Many organizations, not just F&G, tend to value what is measurable, rather than measure what is valuable (which may be hard). As far as assessing one's ability to navigate, I don't think it needs to be that complicated: After passing the summit of Lafayette did you follow a north bearing or a west bearing? No idea? Negligent.

Same is true with the (common) "wrong turn at Mitzpah" problem: Why were you trending east instead of west? Didn't know you were trending east? Negligent.

It is trivial to prevent these wrong turns, and to definitively diagnose and correct a mistake if one is made, with even a cursory understanding of map and compass. That's all I'm saying.

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I agree with your point and everyone else's. But I have no faith in people overall to adhere to all these suggestions. If a simple, inexpensive fix prevents a few of these mishaps, especially if it proves fatal, then it is worth it. I mean how much does it cost to put in a new sign, build a bigger cairn or move it over? I'm sure the vast majority of hikers we see out there are not "educated" to the degree many of us on this forum are to the hazards of not knowing how to navigate, having the common sense to turn around in bad weather and even more fundamentally, researching where you plan on going in the first place. They're just psyched to get out in the woods and take off ill prepared. No matter how much we complain about how foolish that is the reality is that a ton of people are going to do just that. I'd rather the state spent $250 on a new sign than $10,000 on a rescue and risk additional lives in the process.

I agree with improving signage, as I mentioned above.

On the other side are "wilderness" advocates, who are busy removing bridges and painting over trail markers.

I think the conditions in the Whites can be tough to navigate above treeline in bad conditions. When I started winter hiking, I rarely went above treeline unless it was a nice day. Over time, I pushed myself deeper into the abyss as I learned. There has been and always will be hikers who do not have the skillset for tough conditions that will proceed into them anyway. This results in rescues and or mishaps including deaths, always been that way, always will be that way. While we are VERY fortunate to have such a playground to challenge us, it comes with a price, it eats newbies for lunch. I wouldnt protest a better sign up there, but to be honest, it may help, it may not. Signs get covered in rime and you can wander past one by 5ft and miss it. I think it great to try and fix things to help and save people, but keep in mind, you just cannot save everyone. I'm against over blazing and over signing from a pure wilderness perspective. Example, those " Ten Essentials" and " Hike Safe " signs are everywhere, as well as the F and G stuff about rescues. Has that cut down on mishaps and rescues? No it has not. Just saying.

sierra said:

I think the conditions in the Whites can be tough to navigate above treeline in bad conditions. When I started winter hiking, I rarely went above treeline unless it was a nice day. Over time, I pushed myself deeper into the abyss as I learned. There has been and always will be hikers who do not have the skillset for tough conditions that will proceed into them anyway. This results in rescues and or mishaps including deaths, always been that way, always will be that way. While we are VERY fortunate to have such a playground to challenge us, it comes with a price, it eats newbies for lunch. I wouldnt protest a better sign up there, but to be honest, it may help, it may not. Signs get covered in rime and you can wander past one by 5ft and miss it. I think it great to try and fix things to help and save people, but keep in mind, you just cannot save everyone. I'm against over blazing and over signing from a pure wilderness perspective. Example, those " Ten Essentials" and " Hike Safe " signs are everywhere, as well as the F and G stuff about rescues. Has that cut down on mishaps and rescues? No it has not. Just saying.

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Good points. The signs above King Ravine had 2-3 inches of solid ice covering them in December when I hiked Adams. No one was reading them even after chipping away at the sign with an axe. The sign at the top of the King Ravine Trail was missing and won't likely be replaced until summer. I think signage and blazing is fine for summer hiking, but winter presents a whole different challenge and signs are unreliable in those conditions. Adding more signs that are going to be covered in rime ice during the coldest months of the year doesn't necessarily help. I agree the mountains cannot be made safe for all situations and when trying to make them so, we take away the very reasons many of us go there in the first place. Not saying a sign here and there wouldn't be appropriate in some cases, but if people are relying on signage in winter, I'm not so sure they should be out there in the first place.

DayTrip said:

I agree with your point and everyone else's. But I have no faith in people overall to adhere to all these suggestions. If a simple, inexpensive fix prevents a few of these mishaps, especially if it proves fatal, then it is worth it. I mean how much does it cost to put in a new sign, build a bigger cairn or move it over? I'm sure the vast majority of hikers we see out there are not "educated" to the degree many of us on this forum are to the hazards of not knowing how to navigate, having the common sense to turn around in bad weather and even more fundamentally, researching where you plan on going in the first place. They're just psyched to get out in the woods and take off ill prepared. No matter how much we complain about how foolish that is the reality is that a ton of people are going to do just that. I'd rather the state spent $250 on a new sign than $10,000 on a rescue and risk additional lives in the process.

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I don't advocate removing BASIC signage but I sure as heck don't think we should be making it any easier for these types of "adventurers" to gain their folly. The mountains are very often unforgiving. These are the types of people who often cry the gov't let me down, I wasn't rescued at 2am when I decided to leave my warm and toasty car at 2pm in January with jeans and a T-shirt and figured Garfield wasn't all that bad.

This is the mentality that has changed our guide books to decry every trail is "difficult." Same mentality that has millions of people gripped to their TV and radio for a few inches of snow just because it's pumped up and hyped. Most here have done this section of the White's. IMHO wasn't any harder or easier than 70% of the rest of the White's were/are. Keep moving toward facilitation and we end with countless regulation and ultimately, removing the wild from the WILD. There is little self reliance left in the modern world, mountains are a realm that still require it.

Raven said:

Good points. The signs above King Ravine had 2-3 inches of solid ice covering them in December when I hiked Adams. No one was reading them even after chipping away at the sign with an axe. The sign at the top of the King Ravine Trail was missing and won't likely be replaced until summer. I think signage and blazing is fine for summer hiking, but winter presents a whole different challenge and signs are unreliable in those conditions. Adding more signs that are going to be covered in rime ice during the coldest months of the year doesn't necessarily help. I agree the mountains cannot be made safe for all situations and when trying to make them so, we take away the very reasons many of us go there in the first place. Not saying a sign here and there wouldn't be appropriate in some cases, but if people are relying on signage in winter, I'm not so sure they should be out there in the first place.

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My point exactly, If you are hitting King's Ravine, you damn better not be counting on a sign. My first time up Kings I'll never forget how different it was covered in snow and ice without the ability to play on the boulders at the base like in fall. And the ice coming out of the hut windows was insane. Looked like a frozen prison.

BISCUT said:

There is little self reliance left in the modern world, mountains are a realm that still require it.

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Well put, Biscut.

I like the way you worded that sentiment, I too enjoy that element of hiking. There is something to be said of the "realness" that accompanies hiking on higher peaks.


Be well,

Z

BISCUT said:

My point exactly, If you are hitting King's Ravine, you damn better not be counting on a sign. My first time up Kings I'll never forget how different it was covered in snow and ice without the ability to play on the boulders at the base like in fall. And the ice coming out of the hut windows was insane. Looked like a frozen prison.

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Yes, and to be clear, I was not climbing in the ravine, but hiking along the Airline and the Gulfside around the lip of the ravine, fairly easy routes for winter, all things considered, but you only have to go back a year or two to find people who have slid off the Gulfside and over the King Ravine headwall. It's good to simply know where you are without having to read it on a sign. I like signs in the winter as verification of my route. Most of the time, when I head out of the trees above treeline, my compass is in my chest pocket or around my neck and in my head is the exact direction of my most likely escape route back to safety. I followed this plan on Adams and was ready to head back down and out if things changed fast - it was a low visibility, moderately windy day that could have turned whiteout without warning, but conditions were fine at that time for summiting.

I am not sure if the disclaimer is still in the WMG but for many editions there was a section about hiking in the off season (winter). The guide basically laid out that the trails are cleared maintained and signed for non winter conditions and that a winter hiker should be prepared for extra navigation. Given the major uptick in winter use, many folks assume that there always will be an old track to follow. In windy conditions with snow especially near or above treeline this may not be the case and signage is not going to improve things when there are 8 foot snow drifts.

One of the more reliable spots for this to occur is a short stretch of trail going up Jackson where a VFTT member got lost and charged for a rescue a few years back. If the trail is beat out its takes 5 minutes to traverse but when it drifts out, the actual trail bed is far less obvious than many openings in the surrounding woods. The upper section of the North Twin Trail is also fairly reliable to drift in. Of course there is rather infamous Haystack summit that has claimed a few lives and been the scene of several rescues. Even with cairns and scree walls, in windy winter conditions finding the spot that the Falling Waters trail heads into the woods is challenge that a 3 season hiker would never imagine.

Good points, peakbagger.

Unfortunately, most "new" hikers never look at the guidebook. Guidebooks in most areas are a wealth of useful and potentially life saving information. We have the same issue in the Adirondacks. Most new hikers read an article in a magazine, ask a few questions on facebook, and away they go. This results not only in lost person incidents and rescues, but also damage to the resource. As with many things, education is the biggest challenge.

Interesting that you note specific places where it's common or people to get lost. Clearly, this is common knowledge, so the State and its agencies should know this as well. Given the current legal environment, I think it's only a matter of time before someone is charged for a rescue in one of those locations, and their attorney makes the argument that the common knowledge that these places have this problem "creates a duty" on the part of the state to improve signage there. And that argument actually makes financial sense for the state. I don't advocate "big neon signs everywhere" (the straw man). But if there are a few places where we know there is a problem, an investment in a few big, "obvious even in winter" signs would easily be paid for if it prevented even one SAR incident.