Whats your go to winter hiking setup?

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GrayBear

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I'm primarily a 3 season backpacker and I'm looking to participate in some above treeline group hikes in the near future. I'd like to hear from those of you with extensive experience above treeline in the winter. Im mostly interested in how folks are layering to regulate heat/sweat while hiking and warmth during breaks. I do a fair bit of snowshoeing in the woods below treeline and tend to be a fairly hot hiker. I sweat with even moderate activity. My concern is being exposed above treeline with a wet base layer. I'd like to hear how others deal with this.

Thanks!
 
Don't sweat! Seriously, you should try to hike such that you are not sweating. Maybe you are over layering. Bring all the gear next time, but see if you can hike w/o it for a while. If not, change garments before you go above tree line.

Above tree line can be spectacular, but also spectacularly bad! Make sure you have a face mask, or goggles, and can cover every inch of exposed skin. Know the bailout routes, have a map and compass (or gps), and don't be afraid to turn around.

I try to minimize stopping in the Winter. Have water, snacks, etc. handy in your pockets, or clipped on in a convenient place.

As for a go to list, I do not have one. I pack every morning according to the conditions I expect, and a little more.

I did not suddenly jump into this, it took (for me) years of preparation, gaining confidence, knowledge, stamina, etc.
 
I don't have a go to list but I do have some basic rules. I carry two primary types of clothing, Windproof and insulating. If the winds whip up you need to have a completely windproof layer covering all exposed skin. The only compromise I have made is that I generally don't carry or own a completely windproof facemask, but do have a lightweight balaclava and a heavy weight version. Windproof gear keeps you moving in nasty conditions as its slows down convective heat loss (the major factor in wind chill) but once you stop moving you quickly will start losing heat due lack of insulation. I wear poly pro underwear and carry spare expedition weight spares. I generaly have a wind resistant fleece under my shell when I start out but quickly shed it. For hands I normally uses liner gloves with fleece mittens but have a pair of OR shells and some double fleece liners. If I need to put the double fleeces liners on its time to head down. For head gear I use a standard goretex fleece hat with ear flaps and if need be the lightweight balaclava underneath. I do have goretex pants with liners and side zips for really cold conditions but usually run regular goretex pants with side zips and leave the lined pants home unless its substantially below zero. I generally don't carry goggles, but do carry full side shield sunglasses that work well with my balaclava. I also carry a down jacket one size larger than normal that I use if I need to stop for an extended period. Its rarely ever used if I am moving. I have two versions a light down and heavy down and they get picked depending on the conditions and the length of hike.

I also carry a much larger pack than summer. Its actually a 3500 cubic inch pack that I used for backpacking on the AT in the summer. You need lots of volume as you normally start out with all your gear on and then take much of it off during the day. While you are at it learn to sew or buy some hardware and straps at ragged mountain and make a permanent way to hook on pair of snowshoes. Many folks spend way to much time and effort poorly rigging on snowshoes. This may be okay at the trailhead but when you need to do it quick in exposed conditions you want it quick and easy. A good hint is to put on a pair of fleece mitts and shells and then try to do what were normal tasks, you will find they take a long time if they are possible at all.

My major observation is I have found over the years that I have acquired the skills and gear to be able to go out into far nastier weather than I like to or want to. Sure I don't mind an occasional windy stretch near a summit but by watching the forecasts and planning my days plus realizing that the mountain isn't going anywhere I can avoid the worst conditions. Of course this goes contrary to the list bagging approach where the check mark is the driver of the hike but I am out to have fun primarily and stopped checking boxes years ago. I am not opposed to turning around if the weather gets worse than expected. I carry enough gear to make this possible and at the point where the majority of my gear is out of the pack and on me is the time I start looking for options. Realistically even the rescue folks have limits where they will not proceed and they generally run a far more advanced set of gear, I just happen to have a lower limit.

By the way the majority of my gear was bought on sale and at closeout. If you buy at retail during peak season, you will burn a major hole in your pocket. Watch the sales at the end of the season and sierra trading post and the ragged mountain tent sales plus keep and eye on military surplus gear where appropriate and you can build up a collection slowly as you progress in your winter hiking ability. Remember gear doesn't grant you the skills and ability. Some folks do get a lot out of paying for winter hiking training and the folks at IME will gladly train you and inevitably convince you that you need new gear that they conveniently have on sale at full retail at the store. Just realize that many of the folks who take this instant training get the initial adrenalin rush for the weekend and then go home and the gear never gets used again. Folks who work their way up gradually tend to be in it for the long haul and thus their investments tend to be for the long term. Keep in mind that the latest and greatest gear for sale at full retail today will be in the surplus bins in a year or two and sometimes the latest and greatest gear proves to be less than the greatest after a winter or two of inadvertent field testing by actual folks.
 
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I'd like to hear how others deal with this.

Thanks!

I've found that there are two ways to deal with moisture when winter hiking/skiing/snowshoeing:

1. Don't sweat, otherwise your clothes will get wet. If you stop, put on your puffy jacket so you don't get cold.

2. Wear clothing that encourages moisture to escape, so your clothing won't get wet.

I prefer option 2, because it allows me to wear more clothing while moving and I can take brief stops without getting cold.
 
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I'd like to hear from those of you with extensive experience above treeline in the winter. Im mostly interested in how folks are layering to regulate heat/sweat while hiking and warmth during breaks. I do a fair bit of snowshoeing in the woods below treeline and tend to be a fairly hot hiker. I sweat with even moderate activity. My concern is being exposed above treeline with a wet base layer. I'd like to hear how others deal with this.

Thanks!

Some people prefer to not wear layers and start hiking cold. Other people prefer to take off layers as necessary. And it depends how cold it is. I like having layers with zippers (pit zips, full length pant zips) to avoid having to stop and change layering. Layer management is essential-- you could experiment by hiking alot, trying out different combinations, and finding out what works for you.

Above tree-line, I plan on it being very windy. I had alot of clothes that are not "wind-proofed" (tightly woven fabrics, extra paneling, etc ) , so I put on a hard shell or Marmot wind shirt (nylon windbreaker).

I am not sure what "dont sweat" means...wicking fabric is staple of winter clothing. If people could hike "dry", I do not think you would see so much emphasis on wicking fabrics.
I think the poster meant don't let moisture build up within your layers.

I always bring extra layers in my pack for an emergency, to change into before sleeping, or in case something gets torn on a glissade.

peakbagger hit the nail on the head. Buy stuff in the outlets or off-season.
 
Thank you for all the great suggestions! lots of good advice. I think with a few minor modifications to what I do now I can be comfortable and safe out in the open at higher elevations. I'm going to keep an eye out for after season sales on some side zip pants and a heavier down jacket. A question about the merino wool base layers, are there worth the money? I have a wool shirt that I absolutely love and wear constantly. Ive been eying wool t shirts and base layers but at $65 for a t shirt I'm wondering if they live up to the hype.
 
Hey GrayBear, for "above treeline," I'd assume conditions of substantial wind (30-40 mph) and cold temps (0-10 degrees above) with low visibility. In my experience, this is pretty standard for the Presidentials in Winter. Of course it gets a lot worse, but that's beyond the scope of your question, I think, and you do see occasional days that are "nice," but you probably don't need our advice for those days.

First, when I'm above treeline, I find it's generally more difficult to retain heat than it is to dump it. This is the opposite of below treeline. Below treeline I have to be constantly focused on not getting too hot and sweating. Above treeline, because it's so windy, even if I'm wearing quite a few layers, I can just unzip a pit zip, or the sides of my wind pants, or my crotch zipper, or the zipper to my jacket and the cooling effect is huge. Modifying my pace has a similar effect. Furthermore, stopping to take off the wind jacket in order to add another insulating layer can be really painful and possibly dangerous (this is when gloves/mittens blow away, or that shell jacket blows away... and then you're really screwed. The hands can go numb very quickly too, which slows the layer addition process considerably). Furthermore, most people, when they get cold, get stupid and lazy. I'm not kidding, this is demonstrably true. This is a real problem above treeline. For example, maybe you'd be a lot safer on that upcoming snowfield traverse if you stopped and put on crampons. But your (stupid and lazy) brain says, "So much work to unclip the crampons...I'll probably be fine." Or maybe you really should add a layer. But again, stupid, lazy brain doesn't want to stop and take off the pack and dig out a layer, etc. etc. Of course if you have to do something that actually requires brain power, like taking a compass bearing in heavy wind... Better have a nice warm brain. For those reasons, I tend to err more on the side of TOO MANY layers rather than too few. Again, this is the opposite of my approach below treeline. And again, there's the caveat that it's easier to dump heat in cold, windy conditions than it is to dump heat below treeline.

My "go to" system for the above conditions consists of:
Bottom: synthetic underwear, wicking long underwear bottoms, microfleece pants, and Gore-tex wind pants over everything. [edit: occasionally I'll add an additional ~100 weight fleece pant under my shell pants if it's very cold (below zero)]
Top: wicking long underwear top, wool sweater, fleece vest, Gore-tex wind jacket. [Edit: if it's very cold (below zero), I'll add a light Primaloft jacket under my shell.]
Accessories: Koflach boots, plastic bag VBL's under a single pair of heavy Smartwool socks, OR Crocs gaitors, 300 weight fleece gloves, Gore-tex shell mittens, thin balaclava, neoprene mask, fleece hat, goggles (pre-treated with Cat Crap or other anti-fogging agent), hood from my shell jacket cinched securely.
Extra in pack: spare pair of goggles pre-treated with anti-fogging agent, thick Primaloft gloves that fit under shell mittens.

[Edit: just noticed my avatar shows pretty much exactly this system. That picture was taken near Sphynx col, heading towards Clay. The picture was taken in a protected spot, but conditions were zero degrees and getting colder with winds sustained at 60 heading to ~80 as we passed over Washington.]

This amounts to a lot of layers, but again, I find it VERY easy to dump heat in cold, windy conditions by simply unzipping an outer layer or two on the uphills. I have never worn my puffy while actually hiking, FWIW, but I do consider it an essential piece of emergency gear. Also, I know maybe 1 or 2 people who have the expensive (Ibex) wool base layers and rave about them constantly. I would love to have a set, myself.
 
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The AMC has winter workshops that I found worthwhile, even for those with some prior winter experience. Proper gear is only one part of comfortable and safe winter hiking and learning a multitude of little tricks can come from others or from experience ... which, in my case is called learning the hard way.

I was given the gift of some very fine wool long sleeve t-shirts ... Ramblers Way. I like wool a lot and have about a dozen wool shirts but am not particularly fond of it as a base layer, especially on days that turn out to be a bit warmer than anticipated. They did not hold up very well over the long run ... and for the price of some of that stuff I'd expect to have it forever. My best results are from material that provides good wicking and these underwear are very versatile as far as the different seasons and conditions I use it.

I tend to overheat, at least my trunk. My hands and feet can get cold. Connect a wire to my chest and another to my feet and I can probably generate electricity. I always carry hand and foot warmers ... year round in emergency ... but rarely use them. Check the dates ... they do lose effectiveness if on the shelf too long. Remember, if your feet get cold, put on a warm hat! There is a lot of heat loss there.

When I hit the trail on what will be a strenuous hike I start out with very few layers; the base layer, a wool shirt and windbreak/vest and add as it gets colder or more exposed.

About cold fingers ... I lose a lot of fine motor skill and dexterity when they get cold. Select and prep your gear with that in mind ... how easy will it be to use with fingers that are numb or with glove liners on.

Have fun and be safe. I do count peaks and redline my maps but peakbagger's philosophy is about the most sensible approach to winter hiking.
 
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A question about the merino wool base layers, are there worth the money? I have a wool shirt that I absolutely love and wear constantly. Ive been eying wool t shirts and base layers but at $65 for a t shirt I'm wondering if they live up to the hype.

I wondered the same thing before I tried my first Smartwool merino wool T-shirt in September, 2004. Bought a longsleeve Icebreaker shirt a month later. Brought all my polyester shirts to Goodwill a year later.
 
My "go to" system for the above conditions consists of:
Bottom: synthetic underwear, wicking long underwear bottoms, microfleece pants, and Gore-tex wind pants over everything. [edit: occasionally I'll add an additional ~100 weight fleece pant under my shell pants if it's very cold (below zero)]
Top: wicking long underwear top, wool sweater, fleece vest, Gore-tex wind jacket. [Edit: if it's very cold (below zero), I'll add a light Primaloft jacket under my shell.]
Accessories: Koflach boots, plastic bag VBL's under a single pair of heavy Smartwool socks, OR Crocs gaitors, 300 weight fleece gloves, Gore-tex shell mittens, thin balaclava, neoprene mask, fleece hat, goggles (pre-treated with Cat Crap or other anti-fogging agent), hood from my shell jacket cinched securely.
Extra in pack: spare pair of goggles pre-treated with anti-fogging agent, thick Primaloft gloves that fit under shell mittens.

If I wore that much stuff, I'd be seriously, seriously soaking wet in 5 minutes. Unless I was standing still. It has to be below zero with some good wind before I put on wind pants - mostly I wear boxer briefs under either Mountain Hardware or EMS softshell pants, along with OR Croc gaiters and that's more than enough. On top, it's usually a Pearl Izumi sleeveless wicking T under a long sleeve medium weight shirt with a good zipper. Above treeline, I might put on a Marmot softshell, or an EMS Orion Sync hardshell if particularly wet (usually I know which of these I will want based on the forecast.

With a hat and/or the hood from the shell, I am generally fine, unless the wind is in my face, in which case I might want a face mask. I also subscribe to the idea that if I am not cold when I start, I am over dressed. Be sure you have agreement from your party on how often they like to stop. I don't like to stop at all, if possible, except maybe 10-15 seconds for a photo, and a bit longer for a small meal. I don't stop long enough to dig the down jacket out. I often have a sacrificial shirt for ascending through the trees. Sometimes this is even a summer hiking shirt, maybe with Pearl Izumi arm warmers borrowed from the cycling clothing drawer. Try REALLY HARD not to get your glove(s)/liner(s) wet as this will make you cold and miserable really quick. I use nitrile gloves as a vapor barrier to prevent the insulating layer from getting wet.

All this to illustrate that everyone has a different system and you will have to figure out what works for you.

Tim
 
Merino is great stuff but I have found the durability is less than the synthetics. I have several holes in my sleeves from encounters with trees along the trails that would not have occurred with synthetics. It tends to snag.

A very important distinction, Merino wool is great around a campfire as it doesn't don't tend to melt like synthetics. Reportedly the british military switched over their gear back to wool after they reviewed all the injuries from melted synthetics to their soldiers in the Falklands. If you like to party around a campfire, there is lot to be said for carharts and wool as light weight winter gear will acquire more than few melt holes.

Back to my observation previously, don't pay retail and keep an eye out for closeouts. I have seen end of season sales of merino gear at 50% off. Still expensive but a lot easier to justify if you got a good deal.
 
All this to illustrate that everyone has a different system and you will have to figure out what works for you.

True dat. Again, if I didn't make it clear, the system I described is for extended time above treeline (so yeah, cold temps, heavy wind for an extended period), say either a Presi-traverse or a loop that involves more than one peak in the Presidentials, with multiple "up" and "down" phases above treeline. The down is when most people get cold. My guidelines for above treeline are different from my guidelines for below treeline. I too recommend the AMC winter workshops.
 
I am not sure what "dont sweat" means...wicking fabric is staple of winter clothing. If people could hike "dry", I do not think you would see so much emphasis on wicking fabrics.
Your skin is warm and moist and the outside air is cold--the temperature difference drives water vapor from your skin to the outside. Good wicking is required to keep this moisture from accumulating in your clothing. Good wicking also helps your insulation recover faster if you do happen to get it damp.

Don't sweat means don't allow liquid water to exude from your skin--you can't stop the vapor (except by using a VB against your skin).

One way of achieving "don't sweat" is to run a bit on the cool side below treeline. (In contrast, it is a good idea to run a bit on the warm side above treeline because it is so easy to dump excess heat and hard to warm back up if it is windy. But not warm enough to actively sweat...)


For the OP:
The insulation value of some forms of insulation degrades very rapidly when damp: eg cotton and down. Some forms are much more tolerant: eg fleece, polyester fill, and wool (the best when damp). The tolerant forms are, of course, preferable for winter mountaineering. The reason that we still use down (carefully protected from moisture) is that down fill gives more insulation value per weight than any other form of insulation. Wool is used for socks because it is best for retaining both its insulation value and cushioning when damp.

Doug
 
If I wore that much stuff, I'd be seriously, seriously soaking wet in 5 minutes.
Different people produce different amounts of heat at the same activity level. Everyone has to learn for himself how much insulation he needs. (It isn't hard--if you are too warm, reduce your activity level and/or insulation, if cold increase your activity level or insulation.)

I personally produce a good bit of heat, a friend very little. I can be stripped down to my base layer and no hat while she is still wearing several insulating layers, a hat, and a shell. Matching someone else's insulation is not likely to work well...

Doug
 
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The AMC has winter workshops that I found worthwhile, even for those with some prior winter experience. Proper gear is only one part of comfortable and safe winter hiking and learning a multitude of little tricks can come from others or from experience ... which, in my case is called learning the hard way.
I also highly recommend that beginners and those with limited experience go to a winter school or get some form of formal instruction. You will learn a lot fairly quickly which will help you through your dangerous beginner period quickly. You are also likely to learn things that you are unlikely to learn from an online BBS (such as this one)...

FWIW, I went to a winter school* taught by my college outing club and went on trips led by experienced leaders for my first couple years. This gave me a good start and allowed me to accumulate experience under the guidance of the leaders. (And eventually, I became one of the leaders and instructors...) IMO, I am far better off for having started this way than if I had tried to learn on my own.
* The content was similar to that taught by AMC winter school.

Others have suggested a day or two with a guide.

Doug
 
Don't sweat means don't allow liquid water to exude from your skin--you can't stop the vapor (except by using a VB against your skin).

Doug

Everybody perspires...meaning sweat comes out of glands on skin in liquid form..even at night in a deep sleep in a sleeping bag...which leads to frost on top. When I see little jets of steam coming out of my arm, I will make a video.:) Capillary action in wicking clothing does not assist vapor transport--I would say its a looser weave.

The real problem is accumulating moisture in the layers...all of which is minimized by using synthetic materials or perhaps certain wools. By the way, there are different wicking fabrics on the market. Coolmax has less thermal insulation than Polartec, but both wick. So that might be another thing for the OP to try.

Personally I have never tried controlled my exertion level to control rate of perspiration...only for other reasons. I prefer just take off more layers or open more zips to manage moisture build up. But I should probably try it in tricky situations when I wear a hard shell in windy conditions or freezing rain.
 
I'm primarily a 3 season backpacker and I'm looking to participate in some above treeline group hikes in the near future. I'd like to hear from those of you with extensive experience above treeline in the winter. Im mostly interested in how folks are layering to regulate heat/sweat while hiking and warmth during breaks. I do a fair bit of snowshoeing in the woods below treeline and tend to be a fairly hot hiker. I sweat with even moderate activity. My concern is being exposed above treeline with a wet base layer. I'd like to hear how others deal with this.

Thanks!

The biggest difference you'll experience above treeline compared to below is the wind. That makes it more important to be ready to change/add/remove layers quickly. This is especially important on group hikes where you may be expected to take group breaks and be pressured to stick with the group.

I wear medium weight bergelene tights under rain pants in winter (or winter pants with bib sometimes). This combo is fine for my legs. I carry heavyweight fleece pants that would warm me if needed but are too hot for moving.

On top, I wear a synthetic long sleeve base, a 300 weight fleece jacket over that. That's what I hike in most of the time. When cold and wind picks up, I add the winter parka.

If you run hot, I think the best way to stay warm and dry is to carry a spare base layer or two and simply change it when wet. It's impossible for some people to regulate their sweat enough to stay dry. It's well worth the few extra ounces and although changing shirts may be cold for a few seconds, you will be immediately warmer.

Take a second to make sure you have what you need easily accesible while you are still in the trees before heading above treeline.

Enjoy it!
 
I have merino wool boxer shorts and a t-shirt by Icebreaker and they are by far my favorites. I find them more comfortable, better breathing and warmer than any synthetics I own. I get them on sale from Sierra Trading Post, still not cheap but well below the regular retail price. I'll buy them again.
 
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