Specific GPS Question On Routes (i.e. Paging DougPaul....paging Dr. Doug Paul.. :) )

DayTrip · Feb 27, 2015

I have a Garmin GPSMAP62 and I have a specific question on it. I have recently been giving myself a refresher on things like navigating to waypoints, creating a route from a track or waypoints, etc and I have noticed that once you create the appropriate route the display says "Next Point (or some similar verbiage) Go NW". Is there a way to provide the actual compass bearing instead of the generic N, NW, etc?

There is nothing in my manual that mentions this part of the fucntion. I tried using the Menu function on the map screen and some other screens and can't seem to figure out how to get an exact compass bearing to follow. Don't see any choices for that. Anyone have any idea how, or if, that is possible? I would prefer to use a physical compass to set a direction and then monitor on GPS map versus using the GPS compass. I find the GPS compass behaves a little odd unless I am moving steadily and there seems to be a lag time in the needle responding on my map until I have covered a little distance. (I was experimenting with going back and forth and intentionally going off route to see what would happen on the display).

Anyone who may know I'd appreciate the info. Thanks.

TomK · Feb 27, 2015

I had this issue, too

Out of the box, most of the compass directions are N,NE,E,SE,S,SW,W,NW. If you want to change this to a degree bearing, from the main menu, hit Setup, Heading, Display, and choose "Numeric Degrees".

See here

Nessmuk · Feb 27, 2015

Are you talking about on the map display page? TomK's suggestion is what you should do, but may not completely answer your question. On the map page, press menu to setup map to show data fields, then change one of the data fields to show course. It will be in degrees, magnetic or true depending on how that option was selected.

DayTrip · Feb 27, 2015

Nessmuk said:
Are you talking about on the map display page? TomK's suggestion is what you should do, but may not completely answer your question. On the map page, press menu to setup map to show data fields, then change one of the data fields to show course. It will be in degrees, magnetic or true depending on how that option was selected.

I am not at home with my GPS right now but there was definitely not a choice from the Map page to alter. The only thing I changed was the orientation to North from Direction because it was a little confusing understanding the map orientation (which I believe DougPaul suggested in another recent GPS post).

I'll get into the basic set up when I get home and see if that does the trick. Thanks guys.

DayTrip · Feb 27, 2015

OK. That doesn't work. I already had the setting to "Numeric Degrees". If I pull up a route it still says "NW To Blah Blah Blah". The compass has a large red arrow pointing where to go but it does not provide a bearing. If I use the "Find 'N Go" feature on the compass it appears to put an actual degree bearing in center but with the Find and Route functions it does not.

Any other thoughts?

DougPaul · Feb 27, 2015

I can't give you a specific answer, but many (most? all?) of the data fields can be changed.

It is worth "wasting" a couple of hours traversing the menus. (You don't actually need to change anything...) You may not remember how to change some obscure item, but at least you are likely to remember most of what is possible. You will also discover features not found in the manual.

BTW, the magnetic compass needs to be recalibrated every time you disturb the batteries.
FWIW, I also prefer to transfer numeric bearings between my GPS and my mechanical compass and use the mechanical compass for my sightings.

Doug

Nessmuk · Feb 28, 2015

I photographed the compass page and the map page with the Course set as one of the data fields, to a named destination waypoint ("Destination WP"). In this case 046 degrees true. Is this what you want to display?

Like Doug, I might use this data field to transfer the course to a real compass if I had not otherwise measured the course on a real map. And I don't ever bother calibrating the magnetic compass on the GPS because I don't ever use the GPS operating as a magnetic compass (not to be confused with having the GPS display course in degrees magnetic, compensated for local declination). I allow the GPS compass function to calculate direction I am traveling, (which works only when I am actually moving at some velocity) rather than to use it as a stationary magnetic compass. It is up to you to know the functions and limitations. A real compass is my compass, a GPS is a location device that has computation powers.

DayTrip · Feb 28, 2015

Nessmuk said:
I photographed the compass page and the map page with the Course set as one of the data fields, to a named destination waypoint ("Destination WP"). In this case 046 degrees true. Is this what you want to display?

Like Doug, I might use this data field to transfer the course to a real compass if I had not otherwise measured the course on a real map. And I don't ever bother calibrating the magnetic compass on the GPS because I don't ever use the GPS operating as a magnetic compass (not to be confused with having the GPS display course in degrees magnetic, compensated for local declination). I allow the GPS compass function to calculate direction I am traveling, (which works only when I am actually moving at some velocity) rather than to use it as a stationary magnetic compass. It is up to you to know the functions and limitations. A real compass is my compass, a GPS is a location device that has computation powers.

That was a big help. I didn't realize I had to add data fields in a separate menu to choose what I wanted to see. And I assume "bearing" is a direction based on Sight 'N Go or a Route whereas "heading" is just the actual compass direction? Thanks. I think I have what I need.

Nessmuk · Feb 28, 2015

DayTrip said:
That was a big help. I didn't realize I had to add data fields in a separate menu to choose what I wanted to see. And I assume "bearing" is a direction based on Sight 'N Go or a Route whereas "heading" is just the actual compass direction?

The difference in the definitions of directional angles can be subtle. Here's how I interpret them, though others may differ:
Azimuth is the compass angle measured between you and a distant object, or between two points on a map. Does not imply travel.
Course is the angle of a line on the map that will take you on an azimuth from a starting position to some distant object. The overall course may consist of several different short course segments in varying directions to intermediate points along the way.
Track is the path actually taken (past tense).
Bearing is the compass direction you are actually traveling to a destination (you might be off course).
Heading is the compass direction you are pointing at the moment. (Think of moving across the current in a river, Bearing is the real direction you are going, Heading is the direction you are pointed). Or you might be on a temporary heading off bearing and off course to get around an obstacle.

The GPS also offers To Course, which when you are off course, is the direction it calculates to go to efficiently intersect the original course.

DayTrip · Feb 28, 2015

Thanks. I had Googled the terms and it was a little ambiguous to me. I'm going snowshoeing tomorrow at a conservation area near my house to "get myself lost" and put all these things into practice for the experience. It's rare that I really use my GPS for anything more than a trip recorder but given the recent incident on Star Lake I am reviewing all these features to make sure if needed I recall how to use them.

Nessmuk · Feb 28, 2015

DayTrip said:
Thanks. I had Googled the terms and it was a little ambiguous to me. I'm going snowshoeing tomorrow at a conservation area near my house to "get myself lost" and put all these things into practice for the experience.

I have taught land navigation semi-professionally to various outdoor groups for a number of years. I urge my students to go and practice the basics (map, compass, terrain observation and association) in the wild what they have learned in class and in our brief field exercises. One of the best ways to learn and become confident with and advance your skills is to "get lost", by pushing the limit of your existing skills in a large but safely bounded area (bounded so that you don't become permanently lost). Always take the time to figure out in every case what caused the confusion and what you did to get there, and it will never happen again.

However, I strongly advise to NOT take a GPS on these learning trips, lest you fall into the temptation and trap of using it too soon as a crutch. When confused, it is far better to devote some quiet time, thoughtful brainpower, and visual terrain observation of where you have been, where you are, and where you are likely to go next as depicted on a real map. Ideally as personal policy, only after I know the student can reasonably navigate without GPS aid, will I then teach using it as the handy working tool that it is.

Go do it, have fun, and good luck with your own navigation skills training.

DayTrip · Feb 28, 2015

I'm somewhere in the middle of that process I guess. I've been doing both side by side to see when I favor which method/device. The vast majority of my hiking is on the maintained and obvious trails of the WMNF in reasonable weather so I've rarely had to call upon the knowledge I have so it has gotten murky over the years. In search of avoiding crowds I have ventured into Wilderness Areas and more obscure trails lately and would like to do more hiking in poor weather to use these skills more. The navigation adds another element of enjoyment to the hiking too. Thanks again for the feedback..

DayTrip · Mar 1, 2015

Interesting day today putting all this stuff into practice. I think I have more questions than answers now.

I started by using Find feature to navigate to a waypoint. I picked a waypoint, went to GPS map screen and started walking. Wasn't making a whole lot of sense but I stayed with it for a few hundred yards. Still didn't seem right so I switched over to compass view to follow the bearing. Continued walking a bit but I knew I was heading in the wrong direction (I was in an area I am very familiar with). The compass on my GPS seems pretty much useless unless I am moving at a good clip, at which point I can't look at it.

So I regrouped and picked a new waypoint via Find, made note of the bearing it had listed next to it, and started over taking a bearing with my actual compass. I picked point manually with my compass and made my way to the waypoint, which I came in about 60' left of. The fields and direction on GPS seemed to have absolutely no correlation whatsoever to the actual route. So I selected another point, made note of the bearing again, and went to map. The "SW To Blah Blah Blah" suggestion was in the opposite direction of the direction I really needed to go. ?? The bearing on the map screen was not the one from previous screen either. Basically as I spun around the bearing changed. So I switched that field to Heading. Made no difference. So whatever that field is trying to tell me has nothing to do with the direction I need to travel to hit my waypoint. So I set out manually again with compass and again came in about 75' left of target (and then a light bulb in my head reminded me I was not adjusting for magnetic declination).

Find and Route all seemed pretty cool when I casually used them to see how they worked. But now that I've done a detailed test of them I am wondering what the hell my GPS is trying to tell me when I am using those features. It's great that it gives me an accurate bearing on the Waypoint screen but the Find and Route features seem to be severely flawed by the wild oscillations of the compass. Any one have any thoughts on that?

Nessmuk · Mar 1, 2015

I have no idea what you are doing wrong, but obviously it is something significant. I'll start by reiterating that there is no substitute for good knowledge of map and compass, and a bit of common sense on how navigation works, before you mess with GPS.

Look at the GPS map image I sent earlier. Before I even look at a GPS, I know that the waypoint I selected to go to is northeast of my present location. The GPS map confirms that I have correctly entered the coordinates of the waypoint, in the top data field (NE to...), and by telling me it is in the direction of 046 degrees (relative to true north), and by the magenta line drawn on the map screen. So that all makes sense, and confirming that all is making sense is always the first step in navigation before you do anything else. The same information is shown on the GPS compass page. On that page the GPS thinks I am heading in the direction of 317 degrees at the moment. In my case that is meaningless, since I am not moving (speed = 0.0), and by my preference I do not use the GPS as a magnetic compass in magnetic compass mode. I only get a meaningful direction of travel on the compass page while I with the GPS are in motion.

But as soon as I start moving at a walking speed, the GPS compass dial will rotate to show me my actual direction of travel at the top of the indicator, relative to true north. The red arrow will remain pointed at 046 degrees (relative to true north in this case), which is the direction to my desired destination. As I alter the direction of my walk, I strive to keep the red arrow pointed toward the top of the screen. The top of the GPS compass dial will be indicating 046 degrees, and the red arrow will also point straight up at 046 degrees. That will tell me that I am walking on the correct heading to my destination. (Note that the GPS does not care if you have any magnetic declination at your location or if you compensate for it on a compass.) As long as you are moving in a direction that keeps the red arrow pointed toward the top of the GPS, you are heading directly toward the selected waypoint.

In my part of the world, magnetic declination is 14 degrees west. So, if using a real compass that is not compensated for declination, it will tell me I am walking in the direction of 046T + 14Dec = 060 degrees magnetic. Please do not walk while continuously staring at the GPS screen or at the compass, trying to keep on the red arrow. It will only cause you grief, and you will not be very accurate doing so. I trust you know that. Use your real compass to select a visible object in your near field on the proper heading to walk toward, then continue leap frogging your walk in that fashion. Walk toward that object along your heading, and there is no need to continuously look at the GPS or the compass at all, until you reach that object and look downrange along the heading for another. All the while mentally correlating the terrain you observe all around you during your travel with the map - so that everything you see makes sense.

DayTrip · Mar 1, 2015

That is pretty much what I was doing. It sounds like Course was what I should have had on the map and compass screens. I don't recall seeing it in the menu but no doubt it was there and I overlooked it. The only thing that was correlating with the bearing I made note of on waypoint screen was the white arrow that points in direction I should have been going.

It certainly seems far easier to take the bearing and an object to walk at manually with the actual compass and use the GPS as a reference for how far the point is and see what is happening on the map to confirm the bearing being followed is accurate. I have confirmed in the menu that I have a Course option so I'll give that a try the next time I'm out experimenting. Thanks.

DougPaul · Mar 1, 2015

You may be observing the combination of two different issues:
* I suggest that you set the displays to "north up". If the displays are set to "track up", the map and compass displays can rotate unpredictably when your direction of movement is not clear to the GPS or as it switches between the two compasses (see below).

* There are two compasses in your GPS. A magnetic compass and a GPS compass and the directional displays are driven by one or the other.
- The GPS compass determines the direction of your movement (from the GPS) and orients the compass display accordingly. The GPS compass takes over when you move fast enough for long enough. (Just walking steadily will cause it to kick in.) The display will now be independent of the orientation of the GPS unit.
- The magnetic compass senses the orientation of the GPS unit and orients the compass display accordingly. Remember that you need to calibrate the compass for this mode to give you meaningful directions.

The intent of this dual system is to have the compass displays (and the map displays if using track up mode) to display the same whether you are stopped or moving. If everything is working properly and you hold the unit horizontally to vertically in front of you (with the display aimed at your face) and you face the direction you are moving, the two modes should give similar displays. However, it can be confusing if it does not work properly and one does not understand what it going on.

If you get a numeric heading to a waypoint from the GPS it should be independent of the above. So using the heading in your mechanical compass should be ok. (Following the heading with your GPS should be ok too if you are using it properly and the magnetic compass is calibrated properly.) I personally prefer to use my mechanical compass...

FWIW, some GPSes allow one to set the threshold for the changeover between magnetic and GPS compasses and/or to turn the magnetic compass off. I always set the speed threshold to 0 and/or turn the magnetic compass off if I can. (I don't recall if one can do this in the 62s.)

Doug

DougPaul · Mar 1, 2015

Nessmuk said:
However, I strongly advise to NOT take a GPS on these learning trips, lest you fall into the temptation and trap of using it too soon as a crutch. When confused, it is far better to devote some quiet time, thoughtful brainpower, and visual terrain observation of where you have been, where you are, and where you are likely to go next as depicted on a real map. Ideally as personal policy, only after I know the student can reasonably navigate without GPS aid, will I then teach using it as the handy working tool that it is.

I personally disagree with this philosophy. Once upon a time, people didn't have compasses so they learned to tell direction without one. Similarly people didn't used to have maps, chronometers, sextants, and now GPSes. Each of these tools made navigation easier and/or more accurate. IMO it is worth learning as many methods as are practical (eg M&C and GPS for modern hiking) for redundancy. I started hiking well before GPSes were available and now carry one (usually without using it for navigation during a hike), but it is there if I need it and there have been occasions where it was far more useful than M&C.

When learning M&C navigation it can be useful to carry a GPS in your pack to record a track. (You don't have to look at it during the training exercise.) Then after you get back, you can look at the track to see where you actually went.

I have also done some near-shore nautical navigation and both methods (M&C and GPS) have a lot of similarity both on the water and on land. Both consist mainly of having an idea of where you are and where you want to be (the next waypoint) and finding the appropriate heading and following it. (M&C also includes finding your location by sighting known objects and back projecting the headings to find your current location. The GPS, of course, automates this.)

I'm not arguing that Nessmuk's philosophy is wrong, just that there are other approaches too. The ultimate goal in either case is to learn both M&C and GPS navigation.

Doug

Nessmuk · Mar 1, 2015

DougPaul said:
... When learning M&C navigation it can be useful to carry a GPS in your pack to record a track. (You don't have to look at it during the training exercise.) Then after you get back, you can look at the track to see where you actually went...

I'm not arguing that Nessmuk's philosophy is wrong, just that there are other approaches too. The ultimate goal in either case is to learn both M&C and GPS navigation.

The method of recording a track for later reference is certainly a good practice, both for learning and for archival purposes. My only point is that when the intent is to really learn how to navigate, it is far too easy to say "well, I'm lost with this observational navigation thing using just map and/or compass. I'll just use the GPS to peek at where I am and restart from here". In my experience it is better to do some deeper thinking about the basics while you are out there in a confused state. You will figure it out, and you will learn to be be a better observer and navigator. If you have made a mistake (there will be many as you learn), you will then learn not to make that mistake again in the future. It is true that experience is the best teacher. Just be careful when you turn on the GPS to ease your fears by pinpointing your location, that you don't lose the opportunity to really learn what you did to get yourself there.

I pretty much self-taught myself backcountry navigation a long time ago, long before GPS was available. I would solo bushwhack to distant locations, a small pond or whatever without access to trails. I knew enough how to plot a course on a map and to follow the compass. At first I knew only that eventually I would either come to my destination, or if I missed it I would come across some terrain feature that told me so. I did not have any idea where I was in the interim. But with practice, after making many mistakes, and learning how to observe subtle changes in the terrain I eventually got to where I could fill in the gaps, able to pinpoint my location at any place between start A and destination B either by direct observation or by dead reckoning. Those moments of "where the heck am I" and "ohhh, now I see the mistake I made back there" only got fewer and fewer over time because I took the time to figure out what I had done, either at the moment or at a later time when I finally came to an unmistakable location and could mentally backtrace where I had been. At the end of the trip I could retrace my path, no GPS needed.

Today I use a GPS for canoe racing, primarily as a speed monitor, or on marathon route planning such as on the 1000 mile Yukon River race. Also as a SAR team crew boss in the Adirondacks, use of GPS is absolutely mandatory when working a SAR mission in conjunction with rangers of the NYSDEC. The first thing the debriefing ranger asks for at the end of each search day is the recorded GPS track to ensure complete search coverage. But observational navigation, along with map and compass is always primary.

This is my 25th year as instructor in an 8-day annual program to certify high adventure trek guides who work at BSA summer camps in the Adirondacks. During the 4 day field evaluation portion I take small groups on trail and bushwhack treks, with the students in turn leading the way. I let them find their way as I follow without comment. They will make mistakes, they will "get lost", but always they will eventually figure out where we are. At the end of the exercise each day or significant event I debrief and go over in great detail what happened and where we were, and how I know that. The best part for me is to see the light come on when a student suddenly discovers "hey, this stuff really works". All without use of GPS by me or them. Only after that do they get introduced to GPS as an additional tool.

DayTrip · Mar 2, 2015

DougPaul said:
You may be observing the combination of two different issues:
* I suggest that you set the displays to "north up". If the displays are set to "track up", the map and compass displays can rotate unpredictably when your direction of movement is not clear to the GPS or as it switches between the two compasses (see below).

* There are two compasses in your GPS. A magnetic compass and a GPS compass and the directional displays are driven by one or the other.
- The GPS compass determines the direction of your movement (from the GPS) and orients the compass display accordingly. The GPS compass takes over when you move fast enough for long enough. (Just walking steadily will cause it to kick in.) The display will now be independent of the orientation of the GPS unit.
- The magnetic compass senses the orientation of the GPS unit and orients the compass display accordingly. Remember that you need to calibrate the compass for this mode to give you meaningful directions.

The intent of this dual system is to have the compass displays (and the map displays if using track up mode) to display the same whether you are stopped or moving. If everything is working properly and you hold the unit horizontally to vertically in front of you (with the display aimed at your face) and you face the direction you are moving, the two modes should give similar displays. However, it can be confusing if it does not work properly and one does not understand what it going on.

If you get a numeric heading to a waypoint from the GPS it should be independent of the above. So using the heading in your mechanical compass should be ok. (Following the heading with your GPS should be ok too if you are using it properly and the magnetic compass is calibrated properly.) I personally prefer to use my mechanical compass...

FWIW, some GPSes allow one to set the threshold for the changeover between magnetic and GPS compasses and/or to turn the magnetic compass off. I always set the speed threshold to 0 and/or turn the magnetic compass off if I can. (I don't recall if one can do this in the 62s.)

Doug

I had set to North up and was aware of all of these things from past DougPaul posts (I was paying attention!). I figured the confusion was a combination of the gps compass oscillating when stationary and my understanding of what specific terms meant relative to the GPS operation.

DayTrip · Mar 2, 2015

Nessmuk said:
The method of recording a track for later reference is certainly a good practice, both for learning and for archival purposes. My only point is that when the intent is to really learn how to navigate, it is far too easy to say "well, I'm lost with this observational navigation thing using just map and/or compass. I'll just use the GPS to peek at where I am and restart from here". In my experience it is better to do some deeper thinking about the basics while you are out there in a confused state. You will figure it out, and you will learn to be be a better observer and navigator. If you have made a mistake (there will be many as you learn), you will then learn not to make that mistake again in the future. It is true that experience is the best teacher. Just be careful when you turn on the GPS to ease your fears by pinpointing your location, that you don't lose the opportunity to really learn what you did to get yourself there.

I pretty much self-taught myself backcountry navigation a long time ago, long before GPS was available. I would solo bushwhack to distant locations, a small pond or whatever without access to trails. I knew enough how to plot a course on a map and to follow the compass. At first I knew only that eventually I would either come to my destination, or if I missed it I would come across some terrain feature that told me so. I did not have any idea where I was in the interim. But with practice, after making many mistakes, and learning how to observe subtle changes in the terrain I eventually got to where I could fill in the gaps, able to pinpoint my location at any place between start A and destination B either by direct observation or by dead reckoning. Those moments of "where the heck am I" and "ohhh, now I see the mistake I made back there" only got fewer and fewer over time because I took the time to figure out what I had done, either at the moment or at a later time when I finally came to an unmistakable location and could mentally backtrace where I had been. At the end of the trip I could retrace my path, no GPS needed.

Today I use a GPS for canoe racing, primarily as a speed monitor, or on marathon route planning such as on the 1000 mile Yukon River race. Also as a SAR team crew boss in the Adirondacks, use of GPS is absolutely mandatory when working a SAR mission in conjunction with rangers of the NYSDEC. The first thing the debriefing ranger asks for at the end of each search day is the recorded GPS track to ensure complete search coverage. But observational navigation, along with map and compass is always primary.

This is my 25th year as instructor in an 8-day annual program to certify high adventure trek guides who work at BSA summer camps in the Adirondacks. During the 4 day field evaluation portion I take small groups on trail and bushwhack treks, with the students in turn leading the way. I let them find their way as I follow without comment. They will make mistakes, they will "get lost", but always they will eventually figure out where we are. At the end of the exercise each day or significant event I debrief and go over in great detail what happened and where we were, and how I know that. The best part for me is to see the light come on when a student suddenly discovers "hey, this stuff really works". All without use of GPS by me or them. Only after that do they get introduced to GPS as an additional tool.

My goal is to be able to navigate competently in less than ideal conditions (i.e. fog, dense woods, etc) where the benefit of seeing landmarks, distant objects, etc is not possible. On clear days with reasonable views I feel comfortable I can navigate from Point A to Point B. But deep in unfamiliar woods, where the undulations of the terrain are not significant to register on a map and easy landmarks are not available lies the challenge. That is why I want to understand EXACTLY what the GPS is telling me because I can see the obvious benefit of such a device in those circumstances.

In the woods I practiced in Sunday I had a CalTopo map with 40' contours and the vast majority of the land features I encountered did not register on the map. The quality of the map you have also plays a role.

Specific GPS Question On Routes (i.e. Paging DougPaul....paging Dr. Doug Paul.. :) )

Help Support vftt.org:

Well-known member

Member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Similar threads

Join the conversation!

Join today and get all the highlights of this community direct to your inbox. It's FREE!