New AMC Hut in Crawford Notch???

Call me silly................Northern Pass. I am against the Northern Pass as much as I am a new hut. Both cause destruction and leave a visible scar on the environment. One isn't any better than the other. I will refer back to the mess they call Lakes of the Clouds Hut for an example of environmental destruction at the hands of the AMC.

Greg YEAH! said:

Instead of building a new hut to help "educate" the public why not put that money to paying some summit stewards (ADK and GMC both have summit stewards and they are less popular attractions) to educate the thousands of people who picnic on the alpine vegetation of Pierce and Lafayette, or any of the other popular areas in the Whites.

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I agree the AMC should do more as to being summit stewards...that is one deficiency that the organization should be ashamed of not doing more. But that 'educates' the more rigorous hikers. An AMC hut would "educate" the less active and get on board with protecting this great natural resource.

Despite the comments about the impact huts have, the AMC makes it up in other ways such as trail maintenance efforts and its efforts to protect the WMNF. Don't get me wrong...I'm not an AMC member...I'm not here to vouch for them...just letting you know my observations. It's no different that building a highway the government seeking to buy wetlands to make up the difference the impact it will have on the environment.

So what you are saying is that if I do trail maintence I am allowed to litter and do as I please in the Whites? They do good things in the Whites but it isn't a pass for the area around the huts. Shouldn't the area around the huts be the most kept places with all the staff they have on duty? Again, why doesn't the AMC put that money elsewhere instead of another hut? Apparently they threw a kegger and had a band at Lakes last Saturday. Now that is a true wilderness experience! Hopefully this new hut will be equipped with wifi and have an Xbox. That is the next generation.

Greg YEAH! said:

So what you are saying is that if I do trail maintence I am allowed to litter and do as I please in the Whites? They do good things in the Whites but it isn't a pass for the area around the huts. Shouldn't the area around the huts be the most kept places with all the staff they have on duty? Again, why doesn't the AMC put that money elsewhere instead of another hut? Apparently they threw a kegger and had a band at Lakes last Saturday. Now that is a true wilderness experience! Hopefully this new hut will be equipped with wifi and have an Xbox. That is the next generation.

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Your argument is now on the verge of being ridiculous because you and I know both know the AMC does not promote litter. We are not talking about the general population. I also find huts to be quite nice in its surroundings....can you name a Hut and the specifics such as date where you found litter and it to be "trashy"...at least that's what your comment makes it sound.

Can you name the time/place where you found a kegger party at a Hut?

As I said, your argument borders on being ridiculous, has no merit, and not based on facts.

Isn't this thread a lot of deja-vu all over again? "Improvements" vs. "exploration." I was a member about 40 years ago and thought that recreation was their primary purpose.

http://sectionhiker.com/forest-and-crag-by-laura-and-guy-waterman/

Greg YEAH! said:

Call me silly................Northern Pass. I am against the Northern Pass as much as I am a new hut. Both cause destruction and leave a visible scar on the environment. One isn't any better than the other.

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OK. I'll bite...that's silly.

Just to answer the question about kegs of beer at the hut, I wasn't present at the event. But last Sunday, August 16, sometime between 8:00am and 9:15am heading up Ammo, a fellow hiker and I passed a bunch of shirtless old dudes hiking down Ammo, along with some ladies, who were telling us about the kegs of beer and the band that were brought into the Lakes hut. Now I wasn't there so I cannot confirm this. I am sure this does not qualify as a kegger, but a mature social gathering due to the age of participants and sizable bank accounts floating around the hut.

As for the litter, I do not have specific dates because I leave my reflection journal at home. I rescind the comment.

Greg YEAH! said:

Apparently they threw a kegger and had a band at Lakes last Saturday. Now that is a true wilderness experience!

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The hut is 100 years old this year.

RollingRock said:

I agree the AMC should do more as to being summit stewards...that is one deficiency that the organization should be ashamed of not doing more. But that 'educates' the more rigorous hikers. An AMC hut would "educate" the less active and get on board with protecting this great natural resource.

Despite the comments about the impact huts have, the AMC makes it up in other ways such as trail maintenance efforts and its efforts to protect the WMNF. Don't get me wrong...I'm not an AMC member...I'm not here to vouch for them...just letting you know my observations. It's no different that building a highway the government seeking to buy wetlands to make up the difference the impact it will have on the environment.

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I agree that the AMC does contribute to the health of the Whites through trail building and erosion control projects. I'm not sure I agree they "Protect" the WMNF. That falls directly into the hands of the Forest Service which oversees the National Forest. They use the forest, some would argue they protect it, others would argue they use it for their means like the rest of us.

skiguy said:

Great Post. I agree. Also thank you for not just making your points but also suggesting some alternative solutions. There still is an open petition against The AMC's proposal for a new Hut in Crawford Notch and you can sign it here. Even if you do not agree with or sign this petition I encourage you to read the comments of those that have.
https://www.change.org/p/forest-use...ium=email&utm_campaign=share_email_responsive

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Well over 100 folks have signed this petition in the past week which is more than commented during the initial "Comment Period". Not to mention close to 800 folks have signed overall. It has been indicated that there may be other "Comment Periods" during other points in the AMC's application. Right now this is the only open means of communicating directly with the powers at be. Again take the time to read the comments by those whom support this petition. some interesting insight IMO.

Raven said:

http://www.conwaydailysun.com/newsx...nt-starts-stop-amc-hut-on-line-petition-drive

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I haven't been following this thread of late because frankly it gets me too agitated, and life is too short. But this morning I finally clicked on the article Raven posted. This quote... grr...!!

Cunha also took exception with a charge in the petition that the forest access and educational opportunities created will not be broad-based as intended and that a two-night stay could cost a family of four $800 or more.
“I have no idea where that $800 figure comes from,” said Cunha.

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Here's a hint: from the AMC website and from AMC customer service.

There are various packages and deals at various times: kids free w/a paying adult member at Lonesome and Cardigan this summer seemed most generous. However, for the rest of the huts the fee structure is such that children (3-12) are 60% of adults, teens (13-18) 15% less than adults. Member rate for adults is $109/night, nonmember $131/night. *

I'll do the math. For a family of four AMC members w/two teens, I get $402/night or $804/two nights. Not sure if tax is included. Croo tip is not obviously. Nonmembers would shell out something to the tune of $484/night, $968/two nights. 'Course there is the "Stay 5 nights, get 20% off!" package offered...

So. That is where the $800 figure comes from. (It wasn't hard to figure out.)

Now I'm all agitated again.

* Midweek rate

Concord Monitor article:
http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/...in-crawford-notch-state-park-brings-out-harsh

Doesn't contain a lot of new information, but still an interesting read.

Stinkyfeet said:

That is where the $800 figure comes from. (It wasn't hard to figure out.)

Now I'm all agitated again.

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A few years ago, I stayed in eight or so huts in the alps. All were nicer than the AMC huts and all were cheaper too. The AMC hut prices are absurd, but in their defense, they are just playing the supply and demand game. The demand is there, unfortunately. I would love to see them have to try to win people over instead of just waiting for people to fill them up.

What's the Logic ?

roadtripper said:

they are just playing the supply and demand game.

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Back in the day, the advertised AMC plan was to locate facilities a day's hike apart to support tramping along the Appalachians in NH. That seemed a reasonable goal and made sense.

This new hut seems a different beast. Is it designed to allow folks to bypass the highland Center on the stretch between Zealand and Mitzpah? Or provide a shorter alternative to the full distance?

Or is it a revenue generator close to the road but not too bar into the woods?

The standard line from AMC financials is that the huts barely break even after operating expenses are factored in.

I'm left wondering what the logic is behind this new hut...

cb

Globe Article that may be helpful to hear why AMC wants it

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...-draws-fire/FPnQXB3tY7cNDPTrTPGLOM/story.html

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...-draws-fire/FPnQXB3tY7cNDPTrTPGLOM/story.html

I would be interested in the formula that the AMC is using to arrive at their average cost number.Also interesting that they seem to be extrapolating that the distance between Zealand and Mizpah is too great therefore the neccesity for an interim destination. Last time I looked there was more than one way to get from Zealand to Mizpah with an already existing AMC facility in between...with a free shuttle service no less. Unfortunately for the AMC there is a contingent that sees through their spiney mesh of twisted rehtoric.

https://www.change.org/p/forest-use...ium=email&utm_campaign=share_email_responsive

I noticed the average cost number as well... sneaky. Lonesome is $131 in-season and $33 self-serve. 8 months * 131 + 4 months * 33 divided by 12 comes to $54 average.

Tim

Ski guy picked up on a couple things that came to mind when I read it. Yes, there's something in that 14 mile stretch they are discussing in the article.

Love the appeal to emotion in the last paragraph. "It's for the children!" Good stuff.

In the meantime, Maine Huts and Trails continues happily building out their vison of a hut-to-hut hiking/skiing/biking system.

I wonder if AMC is concerned about some of their business being siphoned off by their neighbor to the north.

cb

ChrisB said:

In the meantime, Maine Huts and Trails continues happily building out their vison of a hut-to-hut hiking/skiing/biking system.

I wonder if AMC is concerned about some of their business being siphoned off by their neighbor to the north.

cb

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MHT reportedly is syphoning off traffic from the AMC hut system located up in Maine. The MHT system is about 2 hours closer to Boston at an equal or lower cost and in general far more modern facilities. Heat, plumbing and hot showers is pretty attractive. I expect once they link the system up with Rangeley(which is the current goal) and make it into a week long hut to hut, its going become even more of a competitor. I don't know if it would hurt the white mountain huts as its 2 hours north of the whites with no public transportation options plus MHT doesn't have the high huts.

My speculation is that the ongoing operating cost to add a hut in Crawford Notch is low as all the support facilities and staff are in place. I expect they have donors lined up waiting to get their name on a brass plaque and the club can always use the higher revenue to pay management. I also expect that this hut will be designed fare better for four season use and that will extend revenue into the off season. From a business perspective its a winner but as the petition shows many feel its loser due to the impact of Crawford Notch.