Recent Rescue on Washington

I'm of a similar opinion to tdawg. I might very well be willing to help but I do not want to be compelled to do so. I would not expect help (nor wish them to be compelled to help me) from complete strangers by the same token. I would be thankful if I received it.

Tim

bikehikeskifish said:

I'm of a similar opinion to tdawg. I might very well be willing to help but I do not want to be compelled to do so. I would not expect help (nor wish them to be compelled to help me) from complete strangers by the same token. I would be thankful if I received it.

Tim

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Yes a slippery slope it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Boots

skiguy said:

Yes a slippery slope it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Boots

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I guess I am still trying to wrap my head around his plan to ride down on a train that is not currently in service...

Z

On the few occasions where I've run into people that appeared to need help of some sort and offered it, the response was generally "Mind your own $%^in business". And quite honestly, when people offer me "assistance" I don't need my first reaction is the same. Just because people are in a certain area and have certain equipment means nothing about the quality of any help that may be provided or offered. We don't walk around with hiking resumes and accomplishments stapled to our packs. Appearances can be deceiving. Very deceiving.

If I see someone who appears to have an issue I'll usually say hello and linger a moment pretending to take in a view or catch my breath while eavesdropping on the conversation. If I hear any warning signals or signs I'll chime in with some "neutral" information and let their response dictate what I say or don't say. If they want information or help they'll usually open up a conversation which provides the information they need. If they shut down I move on and let them handle it without my intervention.

I'm not sure at what point you can force help on someone. If there there seems to be imminent danger I'm willing to be the a**hole if I think it might help, even if it is just opening said party's eyes to a danger they may not be aware of. I'd rather have them get back to their car and say "Wow. That guy was a jack ass" than read about them in the paper. This past summer I was coming down Caps Ridge Trail and had just descended the big ledge people often have issues on. A couple carrying a dog paused for a lengthy time at top and very timidly began descending carrying the dog. It was obvious they were uncomfortable. They stopped and began talking and pointing so I yelled out that they could bypass most of the ledge if they went left just below where they were. I got a very curt and sarcastic "Yah, we're all set. Thanks." reply so I let it go and moved on. I felt like an ass doing it but if one of them had fallen and I'd said nothing I would not have been happy I didn't say anything. If I ever encountered someone in truly dire straits I'd like to think I would be very forceful in my attempts at assistance regardless of what they thought of me.

As others have pointed out already, we can only speculate on the conversations had and the perceived need of either party. We are ultimately responsible for our own actions and no matter how wildly selfish and irresponsible anyone who came into contact with Mr Nguyen might have been I'm assigning 100% of the blame to him.

skiguy said:

Yes a slippery slope it is.

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And not the kind you can ski down

Tim

DayTrip said:

I meant Washington specifically and incidents of the "clueless" variety, not legitimate accidents by prepared hikers. But yes it seems like an almost daily occurence nowadays. I just can't wrap my head around how/why a person would just go climb a mountain without any thought to what to bring or how you're going back and forth.

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Yes, I agree with you, just adding the huge number of missions for the benefit of the thread.

I am amazed at the number of unprepared hikers I see headed up Ammo Ravine on days I am in one place doing trail work. That's when I see the most as I get a sense of the sheer numbers of people going by. I have been asked more than once, "is this THE trail to Mount Washington?" I have been asked about the Cog many times from people standing in three feet of snow. Nope, not running.

As for helping people in need, I would add two thoughts:

1. If I do not know you are in need, I am not compelled to help. You need my help? Ask and you shall receive. It sounds like the hiker in question had an opportunity to yell to two hikers ahead and let them know he was in trouble. That takes both courage as well as an understanding that one is in trouble to make that happen. Most of us do not read minds. If you ask for my help, I'll give it, but I won't be compelled legally to determine if in fact you need help.

2. I cannot tell by looking at a hiker if they need help (unless it's an obvious injury), if they are prepared, etc. Small packs can contain useful gear. Large packs can be filled with circus peanuts. Who knows? Experienced, resourceful hikers may need less equipment. Well equipped hikers may not know how to read a compass or start a fire with those matches. Personal responsibility must remain the foundation.

Lot's of details missing & I'd love to know more. Where was his car? Planning, as we sit here, all smarter, (now) what did he have for a plan? Car spot or did he not know the Cog would bring in on the other side of the mountain, had it been open? (apparently no map or guidebook) Was this an idea he had on his own, or did he miss a meet-up group over the weekend and go a day later? Social media visit on one of the many hiking pages? Maybe a SO or someone he wanted to impress had done it & he just went so he could come back home & have a bonding moment?

Glad he's okay and hopefully has learned.

Yep, sometimes its hard to know whether to offer help or not. I try to keep in mind that any underlying dehydration, hypothermia or number of other possible ailments, including mountain machismo, while not necessarily conspicuous in the early stages, can alter judgements. ... and I'm not even talking about prehike stupidity ... I don't really give a damn that someone may take offense, that's their problem not mine. I'll err on the side of safety and sleep well at the end of the day.

As a practical matter, in the handful of occasions I've encountered, no one reacted defensively and the need, if any, was minor but appreciated when met (water and moleskin being the most helpful). Whether in discourse with others or in my own judgementss I think of Washington Irving: "The pride of man is never more obstinate than when climbing mountains."

Well I hope when I need help I find someone with a better idea than descending Nelson Crag Trail in my hour of need! Tough trail going up or down. Someone here said, "at least they didn't send him down Huntington Ravine." However he seems to have strayed off Chandler Ridge and found himself in the Ravine anyway, being pulled up a rope before he could go back down.

What I find bizarre in this whole story is why he didn't go back down the trails he used to go up: Tuck's and Lion's Head. He was already familiar with them. That is what I would have advised him to do at the summit.

Stories like this are neither new or out of the ordinary, although, thank you social media are getting more frequent. I've offered help before when asked, but am way beyond just giving it to someone I "Think" is over their head. It frankly is not my responsibility. I say this because, I have offered advice before and received extremely negative feedback from people, like " who do you think you are, some hot shot, f off we know what we are doing" this from a group in jeans trying to kick steps into the snow covered cone on Washington on a shitty cold day, while carrying no packs. Once another very cold group asked me for a jacket for one guy in there group. Sorry, if your still standing, you can turn around and walk down to generate heat, I'm not handing over my expensive gear never to be seen again, because you don't know what to bring on a hike. I hike a lot, I've seen it all, I've detached myself from the unprepared, I say nothing and mind my own business all the time now. I might say in my head 1 in 5 they die today, but that's it. If I see someone who really needs help and asked me, I will help for sure. Old school mountaineers code is always drop everything, abort your climb and help when needed. It's just so hard these day's to do it. Most of the people now who need help or could need help are the self indulged, its all about me, where's my trophy for trying, hey Mom I need more cash, why should I suffer when I can call 911 and get help now generation. Shit, I get hurt, I'm crawling for awhile before I call anyone, if I ever call. Not that I have a strong opinion on this issue or anything. Have fun out there and remember. The life you save may be your own.

In the "For what it's worth" department, France does have a law dating back to Napoleon whereby you can be charged for a "manque d'aider une personne en danger", failure to help a person in danger. I know it doesn't apply in this country but it does show that over the years it is something that some have considered to be important.

RollingRock said:

What I find bizarre in this whole story is why he didn't go back down the trails he used to go up: Tuck's and Lion's Head. He was already familiar with them. That is what I would have advised him to do at the summit.

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Good point. I found it odd that the newspaper had so much information about his predicament. Reminds me of the little bird story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=266cV7V4P30 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6JXJtvJXuI

Likewise, I don't offer help often, only a few times. I wouldn't, however, ignore a plea. I assume every means that

Stan said:

I don't really give a damn that someone may take offense, that's their problem not mine. I'll err on the side of safety and sleep well at the end of the day.

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I respect this viewpoint, but I don't share it. If a person goes home after a day in the woods shaking their head about an interaction with me, then I feel I've erred. I think it's wrong to negatively impact someone's enjoyment of the outdoors, even if I 'mean well.'

Also, I don't feel safety should be the ultimate goal. I know, crazy statement to make. As an analogy, I let my kids fall down all the time. As long as they're not going to get seriously hurt, I let them learn. I think this will benefit them in the longrun. There's no better teacher than experience. As long as the person makes it home alive (and really, the vast, vast majority of people are going to come home alive, having not required rescue or intervention of any sort), they'll likely be better off for the experience.

Again, I respect the differing philosophies on this subject. It takes all types, as they say.

It's all in the delivery. I offer advice all the time, and I very seldom get "mind your own business" responses.

There's a big difference between "It looks like rain; last time I wore one of those cotton shirts it got really wet and cold - do you have a warm jacket?" and "Hey, newbie - yer gonna die out here in that cotton shirt."

TCD said:

It's all in the delivery. I offer advice all the time, and I very seldom get "mind your own business" responses.

There's a big difference between "It looks like rain; last time I wore one of those cotton shirts it got really wet and cold - do you have a warm jacket?" and "Hey, newbie - yer gonna die out here in that cotton shirt."

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Very true point. And I think in addition to the delivery it is the "target audience" of the comment or question that makes a difference. When I float a question or comment to obvious beginners I never get a negative response. They're usually quite glad you chimed in. It is the person who appears to know what they are doing and appears to be properly equipped that usually responds in a negative way.

I'll use myself as an example. This summer I did the Dry River Wilderness in a big loop and was returning via Clinton Trail past the Mitzpah Hut. There was a large group of "pseudo mountaineers" hanging around outside in $1500 outfits they bought for the grueling trek up the Crawford Path to sleep in a bed for the night. As I walked around them (they were too important to move from blocking the trail for either myself or the croo member behind me arriving with a 100 lb pack of supplies) and headed down toward Mt Clinton Trail one of them called out to me "Hey. You're going the wrong way". I turned briefly and replied "That's odd. I don't recall telling you where I was going" and walked off. I knew where I was going and found the offer and delivery of the help annoying. But I'd bet plenty of people have wandered off in that direction thinking they were heading back to Crawford Path. If that guy had said "Looks like you've been at it for awhile. Where you heading?" the interaction would no doubt have been much different.

So the delivery of said help as pointed out and the intended recipient both play a big part. And as also pointed out the overwhelming majority of these people make it to safety and learn from the experience so I'm not going to run around butting into to everyone's plans "just in case" there may be a problem.

I think there is a big difference between offering or not offering unasked for advice, there is obviously a large gray area here, and not helping out someone who is lost or injured or hypothermic or stuck in the dark without a light or lamp or refusing to help someone who is asking for help in some way.

hikerbrian said:

I respect this viewpoint, but I don't share it. If a person goes home after a day in the woods shaking their head about an interaction with me, then I feel I've erred. I think it's wrong to negatively impact someone's enjoyment of the outdoors, even if I 'mean well.'

Also, I don't feel safety should be the ultimate goal. I know, crazy statement to make. As an analogy, I let my kids fall down all the time. As long as they're not going to get seriously hurt, I let them learn. I think this will benefit them in the longrun. There's no better teacher than experience. As long as the person makes it home alive (and really, the vast, vast majority of people are going to come home alive, having not required rescue or intervention of any sort), they'll likely be better off for the experience.

Again, I respect the differing philosophies on this subject. It takes all types, as they say.

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This is a very well thought out post and I couldn't agree more. I started hiking very young and I knew absolutely nothing about it. I remember fondly at the ripe old age of 15 yrs old, hitchhiking from Merrimack, NH to the Wilderness trail for a 3 day backpacking trip. It was late November and my first night was in the old shelter where the old Franconia campsite was, ( yes I'm old now). Anyway, there was one other hiker in the shelter and he was some badass veteran hiker. He enthralled me with his exploits and talked answered all my many questions. In the morning, my water bottles were frozen as well has my Hermon Survivors. He said " sleep with your bottles and boots and they won't freeze". Once I was ready he asked me where I was going, I replied towards 13 falls. While I was completely out of my element he never said anything negative, he answered all my questions and I learned a lot. We parted ways, I'm sure he thought I was heading for an Epic but he never tried to talk me out of it. That night, I slept with my water and boots, and had coffee in the morning and soft boots to step into. I still remember that night and that stranger. I learned as I went, every little thing I know now, I learned the hard way. But, I lived to become one of the best, ( ok, just pretty good).

Ed'n Lauky said:

I think there is a big difference between offering or not offering unasked for advice, there is obviously a large gray area here, and not helping out someone who is lost or injured or hypothermic or stuck in the dark without a light or lamp or refusing to help someone who is asking for help in some way.

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I usually keep my thoughts to myself and don't offer unsolicited advice. One time a friend and I climbed up the second pitch of Shockley's Ceiling and watched another climber try to climb up (second on his rope) the famous overhang. After his first try and fall, he was dangling in midair and didn't know what to do. I took charge and told his partner (at the top of the climb) to lower the second and we would switch partners. After the switch, my original partner cruised up the third pitch and I led my new partner up the 5.3 finish. We all met at the top and walked down together. They could have refused our help, but I wasn't going anywhere until they were safely at the top.