Camp Booties vs Overboots

I was contemplating getting a pair of down booties for use during Winter camping this season (likely just going to be car camping for me or very short practice hikes) because I only have regular, insulated Winter boots, not a double boot, and I am very prone to getting cold easy. As I've been surfing around looking at various products it doesn't seem all that more expensive to get an actual overboot, which would have use on the trails as well as around camp. Any thoughts on one versus the other?

-Camp booties I assume are less durable but probably are better insulated, and warmer, for just standing around, which would be my primary use.
-Are overboots as warm as a camp bootie or is it implied that you'll be moving in them and much of the warmth will be a function of not being stationary?
-On many sites like 40 Below they want your exact boot brand and size to make overboots. Are they really that closely made to fit? If next year I get a different pair of size 11 boots from another company will that render the overboot useless or will it be close enough to still use? Do any companies make an overboot that isn't specifically matched and has some sort of straps or adjustment process to fit various models versus an exact fit?
-Are overboots any harder to walk in versus a normal boot with all the insulation? Is it somewhere between a single wall and a double wall boot? Worse than a double boot because they are softer?

If the warmth is comparable I'd probably prefer to get something with multiple uses for down the road considering the money. Any thoughts or brand recommendations would be appreciated.

My thoughts; take'm for what they're worth:

I don't know anyone who hikes in overboots. I think it would be a hassle - trying to fit them into snowshoes, into crampons, into microspikes, adjusting the tension on your shoelaces. Seems like a nightmare. I don't think I've seen them once in the 18 yrs I've been winter hiking in the whites. My understanding is they're used more commonly to add a little extra warmth on serious mountain expeditions (think Himalaya). I also have never heard of anyone trying to use them as a bootie around camp. I can't imagine they'd be warm enough, especially on the bottom. You'd be in almost direct contact with snow on the bottom of your foot, unless they're seriously thick (none that I've seen are).

Loads of people use down booties around camp in the winter. I do not. I keep my boots on until it's time to get into my sleeping bag (which often is quite early). I don't find them to keep my feet any warmer, and it's an extra thing to carry. Also, inside my sleeping bag I prefer to not have too much insulation on my feet. Seems counterintuitive, but too much insulation makes my feet colder. Why? I tend to rub my feet together and wrap them around the hot Nalgene bottle, and if there's too much insulation, none of those provide warmth. For me, down booties are extra weight for no gain at all. OTOH, people I know and respect as winter campers would NEVER do an overnight without theirs.

Last point: if you're car camping as your first overnight, be aware in some ways that's actually harder than a backpack in terms of keeping warm. You'll be standing around for a LONG time with not much to do (read: without generating any body heat). When you're backpacking there's always something to do - collect snow for water, stamp out a spot, build a kitchen, whatever - you're moving a lot of the time. Just something to be aware of.

I have OR booties that I change into, and love them. I don't wear insulated boots, however, so they are a necessity. But, I also wear them if skiing, and those are insulated double boots.

I take them off for bed.

hikerbrian said:

My thoughts; take'm for what they're worth:

I don't know anyone who hikes in overboots. I think it would be a hassle - trying to fit them into snowshoes, into crampons, into microspikes, adjusting the tension on your shoelaces. Seems like a nightmare. I don't think I've seen them once in the 18 yrs I've been winter hiking in the whites. My understanding is they're used more commonly to add a little extra warmth on serious mountain expeditions (think Himalaya). I also have never heard of anyone trying to use them as a bootie around camp. I can't imagine they'd be warm enough, especially on the bottom. You'd be in almost direct contact with snow on the bottom of your foot, unless they're seriously thick (none that I've seen are).

Loads of people use down booties around camp in the winter. I do not. I keep my boots on until it's time to get into my sleeping bag (which often is quite early). I don't find them to keep my feet any warmer, and it's an extra thing to carry. Also, inside my sleeping bag I prefer to not have too much insulation on my feet. Seems counterintuitive, but too much insulation makes my feet colder. Why? I tend to rub my feet together and wrap them around the hot Nalgene bottle, and if there's too much insulation, none of those provide warmth. For me, down booties are extra weight for no gain at all. OTOH, people I know and respect as winter campers would NEVER do an overnight without theirs.

Last point: if you're car camping as your first overnight, be aware in some ways that's actually harder than a backpack in terms of keeping warm. You'll be standing around for a LONG time with not much to do (read: without generating any body heat). When you're backpacking there's always something to do - collect snow for water, stamp out a spot, build a kitchen, whatever - you're moving a lot of the time. Just something to be aware of.

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Thanks for the details. I value your thoughts, detailed answers and opinions quite a bit actually. You're one of several people who has given me solid advice over the years on this forum that has proven out in the field. So no need for the disclaimers about "worth" in my book.

When I originally posted about getting into Winter camping earlier this Fall the topic of the long nights was brought up by you and others and probably the biggest factor I hadn't honestly considered. I've kind of scaled back my enthusiasm since then. I think my modified plan for this year will be several "trips" in my backyard testing out various things one at a time versus jumping in full blast. I'll likely do a few nights just pitching the new tent and experimenting with my bag, liner, pad and clothing to see exactly how cold I can get down to and be comfortable so I have a "floor" for temps on any actual trip into the woods. I'll probably also mess around with my stove quite a bit (I'm going to stay with my Jetboil at this point and see how the cartridges perform at various temps, at what point I need to keep in a warm pocket, how long it takes to boil water at various temps, melt snow, etc,etc.

If all of these experiments go as planned and I have a good comfort level with the process then maybe I'll try a few trips later in Winter when the nights aren't quite as long. I built a pulk last year that I never got to try because of the lousy snow conditions so I'll probably work that into the mix too. My ultimate Winter camping bucket list goal is to spend a night above treeline somewhere and get that dramatic sunset/sunrise experience in snow covered mountains. But that is probably further down the road then I initially planned.

One last thought: when you say you wait until you get into sleeping bag to take off boots do you have double boots with a liner you sleep in or do you just stick your boots in the bag AM to warm before getting up? I get cold easy, especially feet, so fear of waking up to frozen solid boots that I can't use to warm my feet is one of my bigger concerns camping out. Most of what I read suggests throwing your boots in a stuff sack and putting in your sleeping bag at night and using a vapor barrier liner of some sort to keep moisture out of the boot linings.

Probably another stupid question but are camp booties designed to replace boots or to slip over hiking boots? Seems like both types out there. If your feet are already reasonably warm from activity wouldn't it be better to slip a bootie over your existing boot so they stay warm and any moisture has a chance to dry? Or does that just trap the moisture?

If your car camping just find a good pair of Pac boots to wear. While they are to sloppy for hiking, they are warm as heck and not to expensive. Camp booties are typically just big soft booties you wear over your socks. No you don't slip them over your boot.

sierra said:

If your car camping just find a good pair of Pac boots to wear. While they are to sloppy for hiking, they are warm as heck and not to expensive. Camp booties are typically just big soft booties you wear over your socks. No you don't slip them over your boot.

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PAC boots? What is that - some sort of Sorel type rubber boot with insulation?

DayTrip said:

PAC boots? What is that - some sort of Sorel type rubber boot with insulation?

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Yes, usually with a removable felt liner.

egilbe said:

Yes, usually with a removable felt liner.

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In the past, I've carried just the removable felt liners for wearing inside a tent or shelter. Upgraded to down booties, then synthetic-fill booties. My down booties did not have instep drawcords or textured soles and the down fill would get damp if I was wearing damp socks. I also carry the booties in my winter daypack for emergency overnights.

These look pretty nice: http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/product_Exped-Syn-Booty_10304435_10208_10000001_-1_

DayTrip said:

One last thought: when you say you wait until you get into sleeping bag to take off boots do you have double boots with a liner you sleep in or do you just stick your boots in the bag AM to warm before getting up? I get cold easy, especially feet, so fear of waking up to frozen solid boots that I can't use to warm my feet is one of my bigger concerns camping out. Most of what I read suggests throwing your boots in a stuff sack and putting in your sleeping bag at night and using a vapor barrier liner of some sort to keep moisture out of the boot linings.

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I use vapor barrier liners (plastic grocery bags), so my boot liners stay completely dry. I do not take them into my sleeping bag. Reminds me of a 'funny' experience I had a couple of years ago. We were camped at Nauman, and when we went to bed the wind was out of the west; the tent vestibule was leeward. We took off our boots and put them in our vestibule and went to bed. By the time we woke up the wind had switched to the East, and spindrift had come under the vestibule and almost completely covered my boots and filled them with snow!! I pooped my pants a little, but then I realized my boots had been completely dry when I took them off, and they'd had time to get cold before they were filled with snow. So when I turned them upside down, the snow just dumped out, none of it had melted or stuck, and the liners were completely dry.

I use single boots if it's mild enough, even on overnights. Again, the vapor barrier liner keeps them dry, so I don't even take them into my sleeping bag. But they're not enough if it's really going to be cold or if I'm using crampons for any length of time. My single boots just aren't warm or rigid enough for that sort of thing. Please report back anything you find with your Jetboil experiments!

I think your plan of 'trying it out' in your backyard is a good one. Take a ton of blankets and stuff. Just be warm and cozy the first night, even if it's not an exact replica of the challenges you'll face in the back country. Once you realize how cool it is to sleep (and be warm) in the snow, you'll find a way to stay warm in the back country too. Where there's a will there's a way. It really is pretty special to sleep in the snow, and you'll learn a lot regardless. I'm hoping to do the same with my two boys (6 and 8) this winter. There will be a lot of blankets, copious hot chocolate, and we just might skip tooth-brushing.

Booties go on when your boots come off. They'd have to be enormous to fit over your boots.

hikerbrian said:

I think your plan of 'trying it out' in your backyard is a good one. Take a ton of blankets and stuff. Just be warm and cozy the first night, even if it's not an exact replica of the challenges you'll face in the back country. Once you realize how cool it is to sleep (and be warm) in the snow, you'll find a way to stay warm in the back country too. Where there's a will there's a way. It really is pretty special to sleep in the snow, and you'll learn a lot regardless. I'm hoping to do the same with my two boys (6 and 8) this winter. There will be a lot of blankets, copious hot chocolate, and we just might skip tooth-brushing.

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Agreed. I'm just going to pitch the tent, put on the clothes I would normally have been hiking with in the house to simulate being warm and sweaty from actual hiking and then head out to the yard with everything I own so I can mix and match to see what works best, much the way I did layers when I first started Winter day hiking (the mixing and matching, not the sitting in the house). I'm absurdly picky with what I have and the way I organize it so I suspect there will be several nights involved with me getting a "default" set up. And unlike car camping, if I realize I forgot something or get a brilliant idea to try something I hadn't thought of I can just go in the house and get it versus losing a night at a campground where I have to bail out altogether. We'll see how it goes.

I'll try to keep you updated on the Jetboil trials. The model I have (the Sumo I think) is "supposed" to work nearly as well below freezing because of the variable regulator, blah, blah, blah advertised on their site, which was one of the reasons I opted for it (as well as the added cooking flexibility). I'm very curious as well to see if it performs as they suggested. I highly doubt I'd be Winter camping where the overnight lows got below say 10 deg F, at least for now, so if I can get the Jetboil to perform reasonably well I'll stick with it.

My .02

egilbe said:

http://www.40below.com

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The strap system on these 40 below booties seems crazy to me. Way too complex plus it will compress the insulation. I don't see a major function of down booties to be walking any distance!!

I really value getting the hiking/ski boots OFF at the end of the day. Whether tent camping or cabin camping (e.g. (Baxter), it's nice to shed the footwear you've been using all day for something much more comfortable.

I use a pair of Mountain Hardware down booties bought long ago. The really nice thing about these is the rubber sole. A smooth fabric sole is VERY slippery on those late night trips to the privy. Unfortunately I could not find any down booties with "real" soles in my quick search. Mountain Hardware does not list any booties on their site at present.



These booties from Feather Friends might be worth a look. The spec says they have a rubber sole.

I missed these booties from LL Bean on my first search. Not down, but a nice rubber sole.

cb

I actually bought a pair from Backcountry.com on clearance for $44 over the weekend. Baffin maybe?? They were synthetic (which I actually prefer to down in a lot of situations and I think this might be one of them) and had generally high customer reviews. I figure they were cheap enough that if they didn't work out I can use around the house. I haven't owned slippers in awhile. The 40 Below model is what I was originally looking at which got me wondering about overboots because they weren't a lot more. I was curious about the straps and their impact on the insulation. If the booties are indeed just for camp then I don't know that the added support of the straps is necessary.

DayTrip said:

I actually bought a pair from Backcountry.com on clearance for $44 over the weekend.

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Great! Glad you found a solution.
cb

hikerbrian said:

Please report back anything you find with your Jetboil experiments!

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Did my first simulated overnight last night. Got down to about 16 deg F based on local news (I measured 18 deg F on my Kestrel outside and about 27 deg F in my tent at first light). I took my Jetboil set up with a fairly low 200 g cartridge (243 g to start vs 378 g full; I just started weighing so I don't have an empty canister weight but I'm guessing it should be around 178 g so the cartridge is quite low) and left it in tent unprotected. I also took a 32 oz Nalgene filled to room temp, put in an OR coozie and did same thing. Just let its sit in tent.

This AM I set it all up, opened valve all the way and it lit immediately and had a decent flame. After a few minutes the flame started to fade. At 4-5 minutes water had some small and a few large bubbles. It was the same way at 10 minutes when I stopped. Water was pretty hot to the touch but not rolling. Certainly could have made instant coffee, oatmeal or put in a Nalgene to hike for the day. I used about 7g of fuel to do this (Start weight of canister minus end weight).

Figured this would be a good "baseline" for future tests. Low canister, no special treatment/precautions and I got usable water. I normally have two 200 g cartridges (one I've been using and a full backup) but I'm thinking multiple 100 g cartridges might be better in Winter. Any thoughts on that? Easier to heat in a pocket and improve pressure vs a larger cartridge or irrelevant given the small sizes? Next time I test I'm gonna heat the canister is a pocket for a bit to see what kind of an impact that has.

I use MEC booties and I wear them in camp. I sit on a blue foam square and keep another one under my feet. This rig keeps me toasty warm. The booties are great in a hut.

BTW, I only use an MSR Whisperlite and can see no reason for playing round with anything else.

Have fun.

Doug

I use a whisperlight universal and still haven't converted it to white gas. I used the canisters inverted and it seems to work well enough.

One trick is to set the gas canister in a plate, or pan, of water, preferably warm, and if its liquid, its warm enough to get the canister gas to vaporize.

egilbe said:

One trick is to set the gas canister in a plate, or pan, of water, preferably warm, and if its liquid, its warm enough to get the canister gas to vaporize.

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Yes several people have mentioned this and I'll definitely be trying. I wanted to get a baseline, worst case scenario test to see the full limitations so I could see how much of an impact the various "hacks" have on the performance of the stove.