Hiker dies on Bondcliff Christmas Eve

Raven said:

Good points Doug. I'll take a swing at that horse.

To add for clarification: the effect of water/moisture/humidity is similar in warm climates as it is in cold ones. Florida at 90 degrees with 100% humidity is hotter than Arizona at 100 degrees and no humidity. It actually holds more heat energy.

Your body generates a limited amount of heat energy when you are hiking (this comes from the food you eat and the energy stored in the fat of your body primarily).
The heat you generate is used to warm up your core and whatever is surrounding it. If you are dry, much less heat is needed to increase/maintain your core temperature. On the other hand, if you are wet, the heat you generate will also be used to heat up the water on your body/clothing. Since water takes an enormous amount of heat to maintain its temperature, most of the body heat you generate gets lost to water and is not used to keep your body and the air layers around you warm.

Heat and temperature are two different things. Think about boiling a pot of water. You can add massive amounts of heat and energy to the water by boiling it on a stove. The entire time you are boiling it however, the temperature remains the same. Only when the water is all gone, does the temperature of the container begin to rise. And it rises fast once the water is gone. A coffee pot left on never catches fire when there is coffee left inside it because the temperature can never rise high enough with water present to heat. As a hiker, be the dry coffee pot.

Stay dry. If you get wet, then your priority is to get dry. Wet doesn't get warm in the field.

I'll take 10 degrees and dry any day over 25 and damp.

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This incident was on my mind quite a bit SAT. I did the Franconia Loop in fairly lousy weather: 30's, 15-25 mph and plenty of drizzle, light rain and melting snow dripping off the trees down low. I met up with a young guy about a mile up FWT who had only a wind shirt and poly base layer, wind pants and no insulation or layers of any kind. He did at least have a hat, good gloves, goggles and crampons. He was a retired marine (32 years old) and had just started hiking 6 months ago and was hooked and had attempted the loop a few weeks ago but turned back. To quote him directly he said "I went into an REI and said I want to Winter hike. What do I need?". He was really hoping to finish loop today. We talked quite a bit about Winter hiking, layers, the prime hyporthermia weather we were hiking in, etc. When we got to Little Haystack I got out of my snow shoes and into crampons and he stood around waiting for me because he hadn't done trail before (and yes he did not have a map or a compass) and thought it would be better to wait for me rather than do alone. My pack and a lot of my gear was pretty wet but I had a hard shell, proper pants, back up layers, etc. It wound up being a fairly long stop for me screwing around with everything and he started wondering out loud if he should turn back even though he didn't feel cold. I told him point blank that if I was him I would not be doing this hike with the gear he had. I was very happy he took my advice and retreated. I didn't want the responsibility of keeping an eye on him along the ridge.

It stayed pretty wet the whole walk but as I climbed the last 200' or so of vertical on Lafayette a lot of the moisture on my gloves, poles, etc began freezing and icing up. If I had walked that far before I adjusted my layers I could see where it would have become a big problem in short order. Of all the accidents we have dissected on this forum this one is by far the easiest to understand for me. It wasn't so much a pattern of negligent choices and ignored advice as much as a delayed decision that rapidly went bad. Such a fine line in weather like that. I agree with Raven that 10 degrees dry is a way better scenario than warmer, wetter weather.

I was out Saturday as well, pretty wet all around. I was in softshell pants and a tee shirt ascending. Put on my layers at treeline. If you have the right gear and switch it out when you should, the conditions were not that bad to me. Just curious as to your layer system, what took so long to adjust? I mean for me, it was add a mid layer, then Gore-Tex shell, fresh gloves and I'm off.

sierra said:

I was out Saturday as well, pretty wet all around. I was in softshell pants and a tee shirt ascending. Put on my layers at treeline. If you have the right gear and switch it out when you should, the conditions were not that bad to me. Just curious as to your layer system, what took so long to adjust? I mean for me, it was add a mid layer, then Gore-Tex shell, fresh gloves and I'm off.

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I went up in a soft shell jacket and pants with just base layers. Around Shining Rock I ditched the soft shell and put on a hard shell, balaclava instead of a head band and a light synthetic jacket I've been using this year. I made no other changes. The screwing around I was doing was getting the snowshoes strapped to the pack (I forgot the strap I usually bring with me), put my crampons on, had a snack, fired up my GoPro and put on, switched empty water bottle for a full one, etc. Wasn't messing with my layers but other stuff. The fact that it was in the 30's made it comfortable even with the steady breeze (even as cold as I get). It certainly wasn't a great day for catching the views but I had fun anyway.

I was just thinking of how wet everything was and how waiting to make layer adjustments could get ugly fast. It was pretty cool to see the moisture turning to ice on my stuff, but it was also a reminder of what a bad thing that could be if I were wearing other clothes.......say like the guy I met coming up Greenleaf Trail in a t-shirt and flannel beer mug pajama bottoms.

DayTrip said:

I went up in a soft shell jacket and pants with just base layers. Around Shining Rock I ditched the soft shell and put on a hard shell, balaclava instead of a head band and a light synthetic jacket I've been using this year. I made no other changes.

I was just thinking of how wet everything was and how waiting to make layer adjustments could get ugly fast.

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You make it sound easy. I used to wait until I got cold before adding layers, then learned that adding them while still warm worked well. I'm wondering if your base layer got wet on the ascent, why you didn't change into a dry base layer (if it was wet) and if the (wet?) base layer dried on the descent?

jfb said:

You make it sound easy. I used to wait until I got cold before adding layers, then learned that adding them while still warm worked well. I'm wondering if your base layer got wet on the ascent, why you didn't change into a dry base layer (if it was wet) and if the (wet?) base layer dried on the descent?

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I can speak for myself on that. My base layer was wet and I do carry a spare. But on Saturday, I was not cold so, I just added a layer over it, then my shell at treeline. On the descent although my base layer did not dry completely, I was not near as wet anymore. Knowing that I would be warm even going down due to the temps, I just left it on.

sierra said:

I can speak for myself on that. My base layer was wet and I do carry a spare. But on Saturday, I was not cold so, I just added a layer over it, then my shell at treeline. On the descent although my base layer did not dry completely, I was not near as wet anymore. Knowing that I would be warm even going down due to the temps, I just left it on.

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Did you leave on your second layer and shell for the descent?

sierra said:

I can speak for myself on that. My base layer was wet and I do carry a spare. But on Saturday, I was not cold so, I just added a layer over it, then my shell at treeline. On the descent although my base layer did not dry completely, I was not near as wet anymore. Knowing that I would be warm even going down due to the temps, I just left it on.

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I do the same exact thing. It's gotta be much colder for me to need to swap base layers due to sweat that could chill me. Though sometimes if I am swapping other gear for the descent I'll toss on the dry layer for comfort.

jfb said:

Did you leave on your second layer and shell for the descent?

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I left my shell on for about 20 min. to retain my temp. Then I took it off and kept on my mid layer as I'm not as warm going down.

sierra said:

I left my shell on for about 20 min. to retain my temp. Then I took it off and kept on my mid layer as I'm not as warm going down.

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I usually wear a shell all day, and adjust layers underneath depending on whether I'm too warm or too cold. My base layer usually gets damp on the ascent and if I get chilled, I'll add a layer. On the descent, my base layer will dry out somewhat and I can remove the extra layer. With all the discussion about the danger of hiking in wet weather and with wet clothing, it seems that most people manage to stay warm and it makes me wonder why John Holden wasn't wearing more of the clothes he had available.

We were backpacking directly across the highway from you, Daytrip, on Saturday, staying over Saturday night. I found the conditions to be quite challenging - there's just no way to stay dry. Fortunately we were all prepared for the conditions and kept an eye on each other. But yeah, you can see how things could go downhill in a HURRY. Wet is TOUGH.

jfb said:

I usually wear a shell all day, and adjust layers underneath depending on whether I'm too warm or too cold. My base layer usually gets damp on the ascent and if I get chilled, I'll add a layer. On the descent, my base layer will dry out somewhat and I can remove the extra layer. With all the discussion about the danger of hiking in wet weather and with wet clothing, it seems that most people manage to stay warm and it makes me wonder why John Holden wasn't wearing more of the clothes he had available.

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I have hiked with many people that are cold the instant we stop. They tend to push for the group to keep moving and resist putting on more layers with the argument of 'I'll be warm if we keep moving'. It comes down to faulty logic. Do what you need to do to stay warm, but also recognize that if you're in a group, your strategy might need tweaking. Solo, you have more control, but no one looking out for you. It's tough.

I think I may have confused the hell out of everyone here. My underneath layers were not wet (other than the usual dampness from sweating). The exterior of all my clothes, gloves, headband, backpack, etc were what was soaked. The softshell I was wearing was starting to get wet which is what prompted me to change. I very rarely change out of my base layer regardless of how wet it is. When I make a change I'll often use one of those dry towels to wipe my skin, hair, etc before putting on a dry hat, new midlayer layer or shell. What preoccupied my thoughts was how easily someone could have gotten soaked through if they were doing this sort of hike in a fleece or non water repellent garments and waited until they were actually getting a chill before making a change. That sudden change from moisture to ice on Lafayette was pretty quick. If that was happening on a fleece or merino wool garment instead of Goretex I expect it would chill a person down pretty quickly.

On the way out I stayed in my hardshell and just unzipped everything and took my balaclava off. It got me soggier but it was very warm at the lower elevations and I knew I'd be out of the woods soon. I generally do that on most of my hikes. If I were overnighting I would have to do a different strategy altogether. I've done more experimenting with layers this year (which I won't discuss here because I was advised not to once already and got a little carried away off topic so I deleted) and find wet does not necessarily equal cold depending on what you are wearing and that hot and wet feeling can actually drive moisture to the outer layers and dry you off inside.

I find if I'm not wearing a shell, and its not actively precipitating, my body heat will dry my baselayers if I just slow down a bit. People that hike to stay warm, rather than adding or removing layers, are more apt to have less chance to recover from hypothermia. Staying warm is all about energy conservation and exhausting oneself trying to stay warm is a recipe for disaster.

jfb said:

I usually wear a shell all day, and adjust layers underneath depending on whether I'm too warm or too cold. My base layer usually gets damp on the ascent

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I found that it often got steamy under my shell if I kept it on when working hard. (I generate a lot of heat when moving.) If outside conditions are dry enough, I remove the shell and can stay drier with just my mid-layers*.
* I have both regular (very breathable) fleece and wind-blocking (semi-breathable) fleece mid-layers, both of which are more breathable than my shell.

By doing the above, I can stay dry enough that I haven't needed to change a wet baselayer.

Doug

DougPaul said:

I found that it often got steamy under my shell if I kept it on when working hard.

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That's why I only wear a rain shell when it's raining. Otherwise, I'll wear an inexpensive wind shell. You should try one of these: https://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/mens-ferrosi-hoody-2.html

I suspect John Holden was not wearing his shell (while hiking) because it caused him to overheat.

jfb said:

That's why I only wear a rain shell when it's raining. Otherwise, I'll wear an inexpensive wind shell. You should try one of these: https://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/mens-ferrosi-hoody-2.html

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Back when I started winter hiking, we carried separate wind and rain shells. (Waterproof breathable shells came onto the market a little later...) My wind shell was a cotton-blend fabric which probably had a higher moisture permeability in the cold than the soon-to-be released Gortex shells, but it could still be steamy within for me.

Under certain conditions, I still stay drier without a shell of any kind.

Note 1:
Part of a shell's job is to reduce the airflow in and out of one's mid and base layers. This also reduces the moisture transport.

Note 2:
In winter school we were taught to keep our shells on and adjust our mid layers. I still do this when appropriate, but have since learned that under certain conditions I am more comfortable and stay drier by dumping the shell. YMMV but it may be worth trying.

Doug

Very similar in my case. Most of the time I hike without a shell. Usually I have one or two layers for my core. For example a wool midweight underwear top, plus synthetic insulated vest. Or stretchy synthetic onesie without sleeves and a wool midweight underwear top. This usually works for me for temps above 10 F. I carry a dry wool underwear top in my pack. I usually switch to a dry layer after I reenter the treeline on the way down or I might switch if the conditions above treeline are very treacherous, I put on everything dry that I have before I go above the tree line.

In my pack I also carry either a hard shell, soft shell and/or synthetic insulated jacket all depending on what conditions and type of trip.

DougPaul said:

I still do this when appropriate, but have since learned that under certain conditions I am more comfortable and stay drier by dumping the shell. YMMV but it may be worth trying.

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When the choice is between a hard shell and no shell (no wind), I always choose no shell.

jfb said:

When the choice is between a hard shell and no shell (no wind), I always choose no shell.

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Strongly agree. For some people, the eventual heat loss due to wetness is more significant than the gradual heat loss achieved by not wearing the shell. For others, the shell makes sense given minimal sweating. I would posit that one's rules around gear and layering should be as dynamic as the conditions in which they are being applied. I think many people here already recognize that which is why so often questions asked are answered with, 'it depends'.

DougPaul said:

My wind shell was a cotton-blend fabric which probably had a higher moisture permeability in the cold than the soon-to-be released Gortex shells, but it could still be steamy within for me.

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Sounds like the EMS 60/40 parka. Been there, done that. Besides being 60% cotton, they had a partial nylon lining which also absorbed moisture. I would wear mine for a winter hike and it would freeze while I was hiking. After camping out, it would be as useful as a sheet of cardboard the next morning. Modern windshells are usually a single thin layer of polyester and should not be dismissed because the 60/40 made you steamy.