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Thread: Lost hiker in the Pemi

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by miehoff View Post
    I find it kind of disturbing that most of these discussions about rescues are focused on carelessness and getting charged (or not). Really, what does it matter?.
    Well, for me, I enjoy hiking off trail, solo, in all four seasons. NH F&G hasn't provided much clarity on whether or not that activity, in and of itself, is careless, reckless, or negligent.

    I would like to think I bring enough judgment, knowledge, and gear with me that it would be difficult for them to charge me for a rescue. I have gotten the Hike Safe card each year since it was made available but I am still not sure exactly what having that cards means.
    Last edited by Tom_Murphy; 05-07-2017 at 03:19 PM. Reason: I can't spell

  2. #47
    Moderator bikehikeskifish's Avatar
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    FWIW, I use OSM on my Garmin Edge 520 for cycling and they are always up-to-date.

    My 76CSx has started freezing lately. Have to remove the batteries to restart it. Meanwhile, I used Guthook's NE Hiking App for a Tripyramids-Sleepers-Whiteface-Passaconaway loop and the track perfectly overlaid the trails that (used to be on?) GPS File Depot.

    Tim
    Bike, Hike, Ski, Sleep. Eat, Fish, Repeat.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becca M View Post
    The trails in the Pemi on the East Side of Franconia Ridge (Franconia Brook/Lincoln Brook) are not maintained for "winter" travel, right? - it is not surprising people get lost in there if that's where he got lost.

    No bridges/minimal maintenance..... these rescues cost FAR more that a bit more maintenance would.
    I am not aware of any Trail being maintained for winter travel. Many trails are difficult to follow when the snow covers the tread. I am guessing you are referring to the rule to not having any blazing on the Lincoln Brook Trial. The Lincoln Brook Trail is a Zone B and is maintained as such. Those types of trails were where I tested my route finding skills before I started bushwhacking in ernest. I appreciated the existence of trails maintained to a lower standard.

    BTW the AMC summer crew made a very aggressive brushing out of the LBT from Camp 13 through to the FBT a year or two before Hurricane Irene; the LBT isn't nearly as tough to follow as it once was.
    Last edited by Tom_Murphy; 05-08-2017 at 08:47 AM. Reason: I can't spell

  4. #49
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Folks,

    I am sure Guy Waterman would be spinning in his grave if he saw this thread.

    My god, how did we hike / bushwhack ANYTHING in the 70s without all these digital doo-dahs???

    Suggestion: Leave all that stuff (including your cell phone) home on your next hike or bushwhack and see what that feels like.

    cb
    How many 4Ks in the NE100?
    All of em.

  5. #50
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Murphy View Post
    I am not aware of any Trail being maintained for winter travel. Many trails are difficult to follow when the snow covers the thread. I am guessing you are referring to the rule to not having any blazing on the Lincoln Brook Trial. The Lincoln Brook Trail is a Zone B and is maintained as such. Those types of trails were where I tested my route finding skills before I started bushwhacking in ernest. I appreciated the existence of trails maintained to a lower standard.
    As a WMNF trail adopter, we're told explicitly that trails are not maintained for winter use. The 4'x8' passageway for non-wilderness trails can easily become obscured due to deep snow and bend-overs. Some of those trails, by way of being hiked a lot in winter have become somewhat maintained for winter due to some higher brushing being done (be it organized or rouge). I'm taller, and with basic tools I can easily brush to 10', so I do - but I don't expect someone who is a foot shorter to do the same. I've never brought paint with me to paint new blazes as the trails I've maintained have had very obvious tread-ways, existing blazes, or signs (although I did have to report a sign missing for the Guinea Pond spur). I've mentioned it in other posts, but I have concerns that a lot of people enter the Wilderness without reasonable expectations of what to expect. Some wilderness trails are blazed (either actively or have remnants), and blazes seems to be a crutch for a lot of people (based on complaints around there being a lack of them). Not all wilderness trails are created equal, for sure, but I think a clearer sign when entering the wilderness might help - akin to the yellow 'STOP' signs before entering the Presidential Range. I think for most people, the current signs might as well just be mile markers.

    Of course none of this might actually be relevant to this particular incident.
    | 62.2% W48: 19/48
    Trail Adopter of the Guinea Pond Trail (Pemi District)

  6. #51
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Murphy View Post
    Well, for me, I enjoy hiking off trail, solo, in all four seasons. NH F&G hasn't provided much clarity on whether or not that activity, in and of itself, is careless, reckless, or negligent.

    I would like to think I bring enough judgment, knowledge, and gear with me that it would be difficult for them to charge me for a rescue. I have gotten the Hike Safe card each year since it was made available but I am still not sure exactly what having that cards means.
    You might find this quote from the Concord Monitor article interesting: http://www.concordmonitor.com/Found-...erness-9693880

    "Jordan noted that many people in the hiking community do not share his opinion about the suitability of solo hiking, and that hiking alone has not been classified as a form of negligence that would lead the state to bill for a rescue."
    | 62.2% W48: 19/48
    Trail Adopter of the Guinea Pond Trail (Pemi District)

  7. #52
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    Less work for you!
    I have it worked out pretty well at this point so the amount of work is pretty small:
    About 2 clicks to download a data file from the OSM website and then running a shell file (which takes less than a second to run the sequence of 3 programs to do the data selection and conversion to GPX format).

    The maps that I have generated by plotting the above tracks on topo maps are the best hiking maps that I am aware of for some local conservation areas.

    I also have a copy of the GPX files for the WMNF based upon GPS data from the USFS...
    See:
    http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthrea...rails-data-GPX
    http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthrea...acks-for-NH-4K
    and the track files can be found at:
    http://trailsnh.com/GPS/WMNF-2008-trails-GPX-files.zip

    Thanks for the links to the other sources--I'll check them out when I get a chance.

    Doug

  8. #53
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    "Jordan noted that many people in the hiking community do not share his opinion about the suitability of solo hiking, and that hiking alone has not been classified as a form of negligence that would lead the state to bill for a rescue."[/QUOTE]

    The Fish and Game are no different then any other company or organization, they look at things through their own rose colored lenses. If you took the amount of solo hikes accomplished each year and stood the amount of rescues for solo hikers against that number, the argument would never hold up in court. If they were to rescue me and fine me based solely on being solo, I would fight it in court, even if it cost me a small fortune.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Murphy View Post
    I am not aware of any Trail being maintained for winter travel. Many trails are difficult to follow when the snow covers the thread. I am guessing you are referring to the rule to not having any blazing on the Lincoln Brook Trial. The Lincoln Brook Trail is a Zone B and is maintained as such. Those types of trails were where I tested my route finding skills before I started bushwhacking in ernest. I appreciated the existence of trails maintained to a lower standard.

    BTW the AMC summer crew made a very aggressive brushing out of the LBT from Camp 13 through to the FBT a year or two before Hurricane Irene; the LBT isn't nearly as tough to follow as it once was.
    Lions Head Winter Route may be the exception.

  10. #55
    Senior Member Trail Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    I am sure Guy Waterman would be spinning in his grave if he saw this thread.

    My god, how did we hike / bushwhack ANYTHING in the 70s without all these digital doo-dahs???

    Suggestion: Leave all that stuff (including your cell phone) home on your next hike or bushwhack and see what that feels like.

    cb
    Guy Waterman was a Luddite?

    How does it feel to bushwhack without the "doo dahs"? It feels like when I use a map and compass. That's how it feels like.

    Two false assumptions:
    - All GPS users can't navigate without one.
    - All M&C users are techno-illiterate.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Trail Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    ... If you took the amount of solo hikes accomplished each year and stood the amount of rescues for solo hikers against that number, the argument would never hold up in court.
    I'll bet the stats easily support your hypothesis.

    Two years ago, over on the ADKHP forum, people were complaining that "lost hikers" were an ever-growing plague, sucking the life out of state resources. I tallied up all the rescues from Jan-Nov 2015 and came up with this:



    "Lost hikers" was in third place ... and represented 9 people out of the ~150,000 hikers who visit the High Peaks annually. Each and every rescue is unfortunate (and costly) but just a tiny fraction of the number of hikers who safely visit the backcountry.


    Stats:
    Injured Hiker: 33
    Distressed Hiker: 16
    Lost Hiker: 9
    Overdue: 6
    Last edited by Trail Boss; 05-07-2017 at 09:32 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    I'll bet the stats easily support your hypothesis.

    Two years ago, over on the ADKHP forum, people were complaining that "lost hikers" were an ever-growing plague, sucking the life out of state resources. I tallied up all the rescues from Jan-Nov 2015 and came up with this:



    "Lost hikers" was in third place ... and represented 9 people out of the ~150,000 hikers who visit the High Peaks annually. Each and every rescue is unfortunate (and costly) but just a tiny fraction of the number of hikers who safely visit the backcountry.


    Stats:
    Injured Hiker: 33
    Distressed Hiker: 16
    Lost Hiker: 9
    Overdue: 6
    So this week, we had two different groups of people that needed rescuing and one solo hiker. I think this small sample size proves that hiking in a group is riskier than solo hiking.

    Right?

    Solo hiking isn't riskier, its the smaller margin of error can be life-threatening. The risk is the same whether in a group, or alone.

  13. #58
    Senior Member Trail Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by egilbe View Post
    So this week, we had two different groups of people that needed rescuing and one solo hiker. I think this small sample size proves that hiking in a group is riskier than solo hiking.

    Right?
    Your sample size is waaay too small to make any conclusions. The data I posted was based on nearly a year's worth of the DEC's SAR reports (the stats I posted were constrained to the High Peaks area). BTW, in case it was unclear, I was agreeing with Sierra's point. An examination of the stats would probably show that solo hikers don't represent the majority of all rescues. Most of the injuries I read about in 2015 were sustained by people hiking with one or more companions.
    Last edited by Trail Boss; 05-07-2017 at 10:47 PM.

  14. #59
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    My post was kind of toungue-in-cheek. I wasn't serious.

    The majority of people hike with others the majority of the time. Therefore, it stands to reason, that most injuries will happen to someone who is hiking with others. I agree with Sierra also. Its not solo hikers who need rescue more often, its hikers. The odds of any one hiker getting injured is exactly the same. The odds of any one hiker needing rescue is exactly the same.

    Now, if one is talking about survival, the odds of surviving an injury favor those in a group. Most people hike in groups of two or more, most people survive injuries.

  15. #60
    Senior Member iAmKrzys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJsName View Post
    You might find this quote from the Concord Monitor article interesting: http://www.concordmonitor.com/Found-...erness-9693880
    [...]
    I don't have any medical background but from the reading of this article it seems to me like there was not much time left for the rescuers to find this guy. Kudos to all people involved in SAR effort for saving his life!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    This is where VFTT, the pre-eminent online hiking community for the Whites, may want to collectively ask itself if "bushwhack routes" belong on public maps. I think they should not, but then I'm seeing the topic through the lens of an Adirondack preservationist (don't promote unofficial routes). I'm not steeped in the local customs of the Whites. Maybe the Brutus and Black Pond bushwhacks are so well-known, and so well-trodden, that they transcend the classic definition of a bushwhack and are effectively trails.
    Speaking purely for myself i use this rule of thumb:
    • If a trail is blazed or not blazed but still "officially" exists I mark it on OSM even if it is poorly maintained
    • If I walk a herd path and it appears to be under active use, I will mark it but I won't create a trail relation for it
    • If a path is barely visible and not official trail I may upload my traces but I won't mark it.

    The interesting part about Brutus bushwhack as marked on OSM is that the contributor tagged it with trail_visibility=bad. I read it as "maybe this should not really be showing up on the map."
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    @iAmKrzys
    Haha! Just found your moniker in OpenStreetMap! You're definitely no stranger to OSM!
    Indeed, with over 1k edits, I am probably not a novice anymore!
    Thanks for encouraging other hikers to contribute to OSM!

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