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Thread: Economy Version Of Marmot DriClime Windshirt

  1. #31
    Senior Member Trail Boss's Avatar
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    If you're willing to forego the tricot lining, this is the hoody I picked up a few years ago for $45. It's from Marmot and made of the same material as their "DriClime" garments (which simply add a tricot lining), namely "100% Polyester Ripstop DWR 1.5 oz/yd".

    Trail Wind Hoody
    Currently $59.50 from Marmot (but only size Large and up).

    It's also available in a jacket model for $56 (Small thru XL).
    Trail Wind Jacket

    If your current DriClime jacket refuses to lose its funky odor after normal laundering, try Mirazyme. I've had success with it. I overlooked to remove a damp rain jacket sealed in a stuff sack in the bottom of my pack. Days later I wondered where it was then had an oh-sh*t! moment. Yup, it smelled like something you'd never want to wear again. The odor lingered after washing it so I soaked it in Mirazyme and that did the trick.

    FWIW, I had the Mirazyme on hand because I had attempted to eliminate a persistent odor in a old tent (that had always been stored properly). It didn't work and I concluded it was (sadly) the floor's PU coating oxidizing with age and off-gassing something stinky. No amount of washing, wind, sunshine, or Mirazyme, has eliminated it. Oh well.

  2. #32
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerbrian View Post
    DayTrip - that's awesome that you've found a layer system that is working for you. I too am one of those lucky individuals who can simultaneously be cold and sweating. I don't think it's worth going into a doctoral-level discussion on why, physiologically, my body produces sweat in response to heavy exertion, even when cold. It just does. The most difficult (and so far unresolved) situation for me is long runs in the winter. No matter what I wear, by mile 12 or so I'm freezing cold and sweating. Kinda sucks. Hiking isn't dissimilar, but my exertion is somewhat less while hiking so I seem able to manage it all better.

    Anyway, I've experimented with a few versions of your system: various base layers (extremely thin polypro base layer, or thicker polypro base layer, or wool base layer / paired with shell materials of varying wind, vapor, and water resistance). In my experience, there are real differences between the options, and there's not a universal system that works for everyone. I know people well who swear by thick base layers, which I have found universally and consistently to make me cold quickly. I've also had poor luck with wool [edit: as a base layer; I love merino wool sweaters]. Even the expensive new stuff. Doesn't 'feel' warm next to my skin when I put it on, gets wet when I sweat, then I get cold.

    That was a long-winded preface for what I'm about to say, which is: you might want to simply experiment with various cleaning methods. It's possible, even likely, that you're just not going to find something that works better than your DriClime. It's quite unlikely you're going to find something cheaper that works equally well. Base layers are kind of expensive, as are various wind shirts. And those won't last forever either.

    A guy I do overnights with regularly (and consequently have shared a winter tent with many times) has had his DriClime for at least 10 years, and it's not especially funky at this point. And he is a sweaty bastard. That's his go-to system as well: thin base layer plus DriClime. I can pick him out of all of my photos because he's always wearing the same thing, at least below treeline.

    The DriClime isn't super hi-tec fabric. Everything degrades with time and with washings, but I wouldn't expect the DriClime to age particularly poorly with washings. Try some pre-soaks (OxyClean vs. 'athletic wear' soap vs. regular laundry detergent) and see how it works. If you find the right funk-removal method, you're good to go.
    Good suggestion. I should have clarified the "funk" issue. The DriClime washes fine and hasn't held any odors. I'm more concerned with wear and damage from the constant cleaning, especially that thin fleece inner lining. Poly base layers definitely funk out badly on a long day but those are far more economical to replace. I recall one day where I unzipped the DriClime and instantly thought of my cat's litter box. That's why I figured if I could find an economical DriClime alternative I'd really be on to something.

    Let me ask you another question: Why not multiple thin layers instead of fewer thick ones? i.e. is 3 thin light base layers better/the same/worse than one thick base layer? One of the other things I have started to mess around with is layering many thin layers as opposed to the traditional light, midweight and heavy model. It allows for more variability versus 1 or 2 options. My current "ideal" set up is wearing two super thin poly base layers, then the DriClime, then (as needed) one fleece (weight pre-selected for expected weather but usually mid weight), then a 10oz Coreloft Arc'Teryx jacket I got on clearance and lastly a soft shell (I have several weights which I again pre-select one based on weather.) When I'm moving this allows me to walk around in pretty cold temps in reasonable comfort and all these components are very light. (I always have a Gore Tex hard shell and rain pants for the extremes or precip).

    To me, thin stuff wicks and dries much faster, even if it is layered. One of the biggest things I hate about wearing thick fleeces, merino wool, etc is that when you sweat in it and swap it out for something else it turns into a useless ice cube in your backpack. Thus you either need dry spares (added pack weight) or you're stuck walking in the last set of layers you were wearing, which often winds up being the wrong combo for the conditions. Never really made sense to me. One of the other reasons I tried the DriClime thing.
    Last edited by DayTrip; 11-17-2017 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Grammar
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  3. #33
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    If you're willing to forego the tricot lining, this is the hoody I picked up a few years ago for $45. It's from Marmot and made of the same material as their "DriClime" garments (which simply add a tricot lining), namely "100% Polyester Ripstop DWR 1.5 oz/yd".

    Trail Wind Hoody
    Currently $59.50 from Marmot (but only size Large and up).

    It's also available in a jacket model for $56 (Small thru XL).
    Trail Wind Jacket

    If your current DriClime jacket refuses to lose its funky odor after normal laundering, try Mirazyme. I've had success with it. I overlooked to remove a damp rain jacket sealed in a stuff sack in the bottom of my pack. Days later I wondered where it was then had an oh-sh*t! moment. Yup, it smelled like something you'd never want to wear again. The odor lingered after washing it so I soaked it in Mirazyme and that did the trick.

    FWIW, I had the Mirazyme on hand because I had attempted to eliminate a persistent odor in a old tent (that had always been stored properly). It didn't work and I concluded it was (sadly) the floor's PU coating oxidizing with age and off-gassing something stinky. No amount of washing, wind, sunshine, or Mirazyme, has eliminated it. Oh well.
    Thanks for the links. I missed it scrolling through earlier. I love Marmot gear so I'll check these out.

    Also, on the Mirazyme I don't find that it works all that well. For most of the year I normally hike in a baseball hat and they definitely get seriously funked out. Someone recommended Mirazyme for this. Tried it a few times and found the effect minimal. I had better luck just washing it and then sticking it in the freezer for a few days (another recommendation I got based on fact that whatever causes the odor dies below freezing). This worked pretty decent.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  4. #34
    Senior Member Trail Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    ... another recommendation I got based on fact that whatever causes the odor dies below freezing.
    Ha! Simple! I'll give that a try next time. Thanks!


    Regarding the clothing system that works for you, I don't wear that much and don't hike with any fleece garments so I can't be of any help on thick baselayers.


    FWIW, this is what works for me and I appreciate the fact it may not work for you (or others). However, I offer it up as a comparative model for your own experimentation.

    • Multiple lightweight layers offer the advantage of fine-tuning. When active, one or two lightweight baselayers can be adequate to keep me comfortably cool, minimize sweating, and provide ventilation for evaporation of sweat. I have several baselayers that I pick and choose to bring with me based on the expected temperature. Typically it's a lightweight synthetic crewneck or, for even colder weather, a zip T-neck made of "high void" synthetic (looks like cornrows of microfleece). I also bring a spare one to add as a second layer. Usually it's a lightweight wool/synthetic blend or pure-wool (mostly because I got them cheap). When I say "lightweight" I mean something you can see through and weighs between 5-7 ounces (in Medium).
    • The bugaboo is wind. It only takes a mild breeze to cause rapid convective-cooling ... and remind you of how few layers you're wearing. That's where a windshell comes into play. It blocks wind but permits vapor to pass through (albeit not nearly as well as without it). If cold enough, I replace the windshell with a VR hoody (just like your DriClime jacket) or just add the VR over the windshell. When the wind is severe and or there's precip, then the eVent shell goes on top. However, I know a few experienced winter hikers who skip the windshell and go directly to an eVent shell (or some other membrane-based shell).



    Here's the VR hoody under the eVent shell. I'm wearing one zip T-neck baselayer under all that. The shell is on only because of the high winds. If it were colder, I'd don my spare baselayer under the VR jacket. If I stop for longer than a few minutes, then an insulated jacket goes on. There's very little fiddling with layers involved.




    Here's the windshell (red) under the VR hoody.


    Atop Gothics.

    As for my hands, they're cold-sensitive so I can be wearing anywhere from one to four layers (including a VBL). Pants are winter-weight softshells and it has to be in the single-digits or lower before I wear long-johns. If I'm overheating I'll roll up the pant-legs, open the pockets, even unzip the fly to get some ventilation going.
    Last edited by Trail Boss; 11-17-2017 at 03:09 PM.

  5. #35
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    Ha! Simple! I'll give that a try next time. Thanks!


    Regarding the clothing system that works for you, I don't wear that much and don't hike with any fleece garments so I can't be of any help on thick baselayers.


    FWIW, this is what works for me and I appreciate the fact it may not work for you (or others). However, I offer it up as a comparative model for your own experimentation.

    • Multiple lightweight layers offer the advantage of fine-tuning. When active, one or two lightweight baselayers can be adequate to keep me comfortably cool, minimize sweating, and provide ventilation for evaporation of sweat. I have several baselayers that I pick and choose to bring with me based on the expected temperature. Typically it's a lightweight synthetic crewneck or, for even colder weather, a zip T-neck made of "high void" synthetic (looks like cornrows of microfleece). I also bring a spare one to add as a second layer. Usually it's a lightweight wool/synthetic blend or pure-wool (mostly because I got them cheap). When I say "lightweight" I mean something you can see through and weighs between 5-7 ounces (in Medium).
    • The bugaboo is wind. It only takes a mild breeze to cause rapid convective-cooling ... and remind you of how few layers you're wearing. That's where a windshell comes into play. It blocks wind but permits vapor to pass through (albeit not nearly as well as without it). If cold enough, I replace the windshell with a VR hoody (just like your DriClime jacket) or just add the VR over the windshell. When the wind is severe and or there's precip, then the eVent shell goes on top. However, I know a few experienced winter hikers who skip the windshell and go directly to an eVent shell (or some other membrane-based shell).



    Here's the VR hoody under the eVent shell. I'm wearing one zip T-neck baselayer under all that. The shell is on only because of the high winds. If it were colder, I'd don my spare baselayer under the VR jacket. If I stop for longer than a few minutes, then an insulated jacket goes on. There's very little fiddling with layers involved.




    Here's the windshell (red) under the VR hoody.


    Atop Gothics.

    As for my hands, they're cold-sensitive so I can be wearing anywhere from one to four layers (including a VBL). Pants are winter-weight softshells and it has to be in the single-digits or lower before I wear long-johns. If I'm overheating I'll roll up the pant-legs, open the pockets, even unzip the fly to get some ventilation going.
    Thanks. I try to do as little fiddling as possible too. If I've done everything efficiently I'll generally add switch out one layer around treeline (or colder elevation) and add wind protection (soft shell or hard shell) dependng on what is going on. I usually experiment the most around my house so I can monitor temperature and wind (I have a Kestrel meter) and then review how I felt in whatever combination I tried. That way on actual hikes I have a very good idea of what I'll wear so fiddling around is minimized.

    As an aside, you inadvertently got me all fired up to climb Gothics again with your photo. I didn't wind up getting out to NY nearly as much as I had hoped this year and Gothics is at the top of m list to do. Might have to make that 4 hour drive sooner rather than later now.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  6. #36
    Senior Member hikerbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    Let me ask you another question: Why not multiple thin layers instead of fewer thick ones? i.e. is 3 thin light base layers better/the same/worse than one thick base layer?
    ...
    To me, thin stuff wicks and dries much faster, even if it is layered. One of the biggest things I hate about wearing thick fleeces, merino wool, etc is that when you sweat in it and swap it out for something else it turns into a useless ice cube in your backpack.
    I thought exactly the same thing and gave two thin layers a try. Specifically, I have two quite old, nearly threadbare polypro tops that I really like as base layers. I thought, why not try putting both on and see what happens. The result was that it felt like one thick base layer more than anything else. For reasons I simply cannot explain, 2 thin base layers did not work well for me. They seemed to not be any warmer, while holding onto more moisture (with predictable consequences). I think it must be some subtle combination of needing a wicking layer next to your skin, one that simply cannot get wet because it's so thin and so hydrophobic. Then you need some air to pull any moisture from your body rapidly through your base layer where it can evaporate. That's why the second base layer fails. I need something relatively loose. The air circulation is important. Similarly, if my base layer is too thick, the moisture seems to accumulate there rather than evaporating immediately, or staying vapor. If it's below about 10 degrees, I wear a relatively thin, loose fleece over my base layer. It's probably '200 weight' and is fully breathable. I only find moisture accumulating on my back with that combo, and my back is usually protected by my pack. If it's windy or very cold, I wear my shell jacket over all of that. It tends to trap moisture, so I vent a lot and try to keep a lot of air circulation happening. Obviously if it's REALLY windy then everything is snugged up tight.

    Honestly, I've given up trying to understand why my combo of layers works for me. I still experiment, but I've got a system that works pretty well most of the time, so I don't really worry about it much anymore. And by 'pretty well,' I mean it's sometimes perfect, often not quite perfect but good enough, and occasionally uncomfortable for short stretches. Nothing is perfect all the time. I feel like I've tried all possible combinations.
    Sure. Why not.

  7. #37
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerbrian View Post
    Honestly, I've given up trying to understand why my combo of layers works for me. I still experiment, but I've got a system that works pretty well most of the time, so I don't really worry about it much anymore. And by 'pretty well,' I mean it's sometimes perfect, often not quite perfect but good enough, and occasionally uncomfortable for short stretches. Nothing is perfect all the time. I feel like I've tried all possible combinations.
    That's the kicker: the system usually works but on occasion doesn't. I'm a notorious tinkerer so when that day happens I start the futzing process all over again trying to figure out why on the 5th time out of 5 tries it didn't work light the previous 4. The perfectionist in me can't help but try to get 5 for 5 when I likely never will. As long as I still have cash in my checking account and retailers keep sending me coupons I suspect the research will go on.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  8. #38
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    That's the kicker: the system usually works but on occasion doesn't. I'm a notorious tinkerer so when that day happens I start the futzing process all over again trying to figure out why on the 5th time out of 5 tries it didn't work light the previous 4. The perfectionist in me can't help but try to get 5 for 5 when I likely never will. As long as I still have cash in my checking account and retailers keep sending me coupons I suspect the research will go on.
    Good luck with that. One of the contributing factors that has most of us flummoxed with our systems, is the moisture content variables we have to contend with in the Northeast. When I started climbing out West, I immediately noticed how easier the dry air was to deal with. I could wear my base layer all day, where as here, I might switch it upon arriving at a summit to reduce chills as the climbing is less strenuous traversing or descending. If you keep track of the weather and humidity on your climbing days, it might help you tweak your system ahead of time, verses on route. Just a random thought.

  9. #39
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    Re Economy DriClime Windshirt:
    I've had mine more than 15 years and still use it for biking and hiking. A more recent version had an inferior revision of the breast pocket, not really a big deal. Measured in $/year it's actually a bargain.
    Walt

  10. #40
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    Good luck with that. One of the contributing factors that has most of us flummoxed with our systems, is the moisture content variables we have to contend with in the Northeast. When I started climbing out West, I immediately noticed how easier the dry air was to deal with. I could wear my base layer all day, where as here, I might switch it upon arriving at a summit to reduce chills as the climbing is less strenuous traversing or descending. If you keep track of the weather and humidity on your climbing days, it might help you tweak your system ahead of time, verses on route. Just a random thought.
    I have wondered about that, particularly humidity. My Kestrel meter only does temp and wind speed so I don't have a way to measure that other than going off weather reports and I haven't put the effort into getting that detailed with the whole process. The only day my DriClime set up was an epic fail was on a damp, snowy/rainy day on Cabot. I got everything drenched and wound up putting my hard shell on over the whole mess on the way out. I was drenched and chilled. But that was also the one and only time I went with merino wool layers instead of poly too. I don't want to paint the picture that every time I go out I'm getting all flummozed and screwing around with stuff. I have my general system down reasonably well. I just like the experimentation and the quest for the perfect set up. Always willing to try something new for that "break through" moment.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  11. #41
    Senior Member dave.m's Avatar
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    Here's my experience...

    I own:
    1) An unlined Pertex cycling shell with pit zips (designed by Will Steger and sold, briefly, by Lands End of all places).
    2) An EMS knock-off of the DriClime Windshirt with pit zips.
    3) A Stephenson's Warmlite VB shirt.

    Of these, the EMS "DriClime Windshirt" is used on nearly every trip year round. The pit zips are critical for my use.

    In terms of theory meeting practice, I've been influenced by 2 authors and my experience closely matches what they describe. The first is Will Steger, who wrote about the virtue of using a wind shirt close to the core. The idea is not full blown VB shirt. But it is about creating a moist micro climate near the skin.

    The other writer who's work has been even more helpful has Chris Townsend, author of "The Backpacker's Handbook" in which he describes the use of Buffalo System's Pertex and Pile clothing in wet Scotland. The idea of Pertex and Pile is to accept that you're going to get wet and to combine super wind permeable and wicking pile with a Pertex and huge ventilation zippers. The idea is to control temperature with the zipper and to allow wind to be able to reach deep inside towards to core to dump heat.

    My practice is something like a modified Pertex and Pile... I layer with synth t-shirt, 100 wt fleece zip t-neck and then (for really cold) an unlined pile (not fleece) cardigan, all topped with the EMC "DriClime" wind shirt. Both the 100 wt zip t-neck and pile are chosen for maximum wind permeability. This means than when I open the pit zips, I dump both heat and moisture immediately.

    I use this system year round, changing only what I carry: T shirt in the summer, add 100 wt zip t in shoulder seasons, add pile in deep winter.

    Couple of other notes based on the discussion...

    - I don't use wool for under layers while moving. They hold too much moisture and aren't permeable enough, for me.

    - I *DO* use a VB shirt for deep winter camping but only in camp. It goes on over a polyester zip-t and under the pile. This helps dry the pile out fast. I never hike in the VB shirt, but to be honest, I've simply not tried it that much.

    If I had to replace my beloved EMS wind shirt, I would most likely too look at one of the Buffalo Systems shirts. Massive heat dumping zippers are critical for success, ime.
    - Dave (a.k.a. pinnah)

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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave.m View Post
    But it is about creating a moist micro climate near the skin.
    Personally, I've never been a big fan of the moist microclimate near the skin thing. What's wrong with evaporating sweat on the skin where it does the most good?

  13. #43
    Senior Member dave.m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    Personally, I've never been a big fan of the moist microclimate near the skin thing. What's wrong with evaporating sweat on the skin where it does the most good?
    In cold weather when you are at rest, the evaporation produces constant chills.

    When you are moving and producing heat, you want to move it way from you. When you are resting, you want to hold moisture close to the body.

    This is why I use venting wind shirt shell on the outside for most activities and VB shirt close to skin in camp.

    If it's too warm to wear the VB shirt, I move the wind shirt closer to the core when at rest and it acts like a pseudo VB shirt, which was Steger's point.

    Went hunting in northern Vermont this past weekend. Long periods of just sitting and I wore the wind shirt relatively close to the body for the sort of VB effect.
    - Dave (a.k.a. pinnah)

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  14. #44
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    If you're willing to forego the tricot lining, this is the hoody I picked up a few years ago for $45. It's from Marmot and made of the same material as their "DriClime" garments (which simply add a tricot lining), namely "100% Polyester Ripstop DWR 1.5 oz/yd".

    Trail Wind Hoody
    Currently $59.50 from Marmot (but only size Large and up).

    It's also available in a jacket model for $56 (Small thru XL).
    Trail Wind Jacket

    If your current DriClime jacket refuses to lose its funky odor after normal laundering, try Mirazyme. I've had success with it. I overlooked to remove a damp rain jacket sealed in a stuff sack in the bottom of my pack. Days later I wondered where it was then had an oh-sh*t! moment. Yup, it smelled like something you'd never want to wear again. The odor lingered after washing it so I soaked it in Mirazyme and that did the trick.

    FWIW, I had the Mirazyme on hand because I had attempted to eliminate a persistent odor in a old tent (that had always been stored properly). It didn't work and I concluded it was (sadly) the floor's PU coating oxidizing with age and off-gassing something stinky. No amount of washing, wind, sunshine, or Mirazyme, has eliminated it. Oh well.
    I wound up getting a Marmot Trail Wind Jacket (worked out a price match on a black on with the Marmot website so got an extra 10% off ). Looking forward to trying it this weekend. It as a larger vent area in the arm pits versus the DriClime I have so I am hoping it will breathe a bit better and improve the overall system. Thanks for the suggestion.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

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