Economy Version Of Marmot DriClime Windshirt

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OK. Again, I have already tried and like the system and it works for me. I'm not sure why my question keeps coming back to that. My question is does anyone know of a cheap version of the Dri Clime shirt and apparently the answer is no.
 
If it works for you great but the theory behind it isn't due to any magical properties of DriClime. Use any cheap synthetic garment with decreased air/vapor permeability. A garbage bag full of holes would work the same way.

The DriClime shirt I have has a DWR coating, nylon fabric of some sort and a very thin fleece layer on the inside. Are there different types of DriClime shirts?
Not that I'm aware of. FWIW, Durable Water Repellent (DWR) causes water to bead on the fabric's surface. It doesn't significantly change the fabric's air or vapor-permeability (unlike a PU coating or other form of "membrane"). The fabric's tight weave is what does all the work.

The tricot lining is to absorb sweat and spread it out over a larger surface. It's very permeable to air and moisture and provides some insulation. The moisture is ultimately absorbed by the outer polyester layer where, in contact with air-currents, it evaporates. That's the operating theory of two-layer DriClime and VR garments. The outer layer is wind-resistant but not wind-proof. In other words it's both air and vapor permeable but far less than say the tricot. Twight is leveraging the outer layer's lower air/vapor permeability to act like a substandard VBL. Any tightly woven synthetic garment will do the same thing.

.. despite what you'd think the intermediate layers between the DriClime shirt and my outer shell do not get very wet at all.
"Not very wet at all" In other words, not really dry either, huh? :) DriClime is vapor-permeable. Your body's moisture is passing through it and into other layers. If that layer can lose the moisture through evaporation then it'll feel dry. Otherwise it won't. That's why Twight is saying to wear outer layers that allow the moisture to evaporate. You're still moving sweat through all the layers you're wearing. In my opinion, slowing the rate of vapor transmission is, frankly, of dubious merit (stopping it entirely, like with a VBL, has greater benefits as does accelerating it).

Mark Twight specifically recommended the DriClime shirt because that is what he used.
Did he explain what else he tried and why DriClime worked best? For example, did he try a VBL? Or just a cheap nylon windshirt? Or did he just try this and nothing else?

It breathes but it does so slowly enough to retain heat
If by "breathes" you mean vapor-permeability then no it has limited influence on heat retention. If by "breathes" you mean air-permeability then yes it influences heat retention. High air-permeability allows for convective cooling and accelerated heat-loss. Fleece has high air-permeability and that's why it feels chilly when windy. In comparison, an eVent or Gore-text jacket has near-zero air-permeability but comparatively high vapor-permeability.


Anyhow, I suggest you look for a cheap nylon windbreaker ... or just pick up a spare DriClime jacket the next time one comes up for sale.
 
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My question is does anyone know of a cheap version of the Dri Clime shirt and apparently the answer is no.

We're trying to figure out what exactly it is about the DriClime that works for you so we can recommend something similar in the relevant parts of the design. You said in the first post you want "without the water repellent finish" but the DriClime has DWR.
 
Did he explain what else he tried and why DriClime worked best? For example, did he try a VBL? Or just a cheap nylon windshirt? Or did he just try this and nothing else?

If I was a professional mountaineer, I'd wear whatever my sponsors told me to wear.
 
If I was a professional mountaineer, I'd wear whatever my sponsors told me to wear.

I'm not sure who sponsors/sponsored Twight but the book is not at all a sales brochure for a particular brand. He offers positive and negative criticism of a wide variety of brands throughout. In the particular section discussed above he mentioned shirts like the DriClime and Patagonia Zephur. He didn't specifically say "go get yourself a DriClime shirt ASAP". I found the book pretty unbiased. He just tried to provide actual gear examples of stuff he was talking about rather than just leaving it to the readers imagination.
 
We're trying to figure out what exactly it is about the DriClime that works for you so we can recommend something similar in the relevant parts of the design. You said in the first post you want "without the water repellent finish" but the DriClime has DWR.

I only mentioned that because I was under the impression that DWR coatings did have some sort of impact on the permeability of garments so I thought that was a factor. As TrailBoss elaborated on above though this impact is minimal and likely not the reason for the luck I have had with it.
 
If it works for you great but the theory behind it isn't due to any magical properties of DriClime. Use any cheap synthetic garment with decreased air/vapor permeability. A garbage bag full of holes would work the same way.


Not that I'm aware of. FWIW, Durable Water Repellent (DWR) causes water to bead on the fabric's surface. It doesn't significantly change the fabric's air or vapor-permeability (unlike a PU coating or other form of "membrane"). The fabric's tight weave is what does all the work.

The tricot lining is to absorb sweat and spread it out over a larger surface. It's very permeable to air and moisture and provides some insulation. The moisture is ultimately absorbed by the outer polyester layer where, in contact with air-currents, it evaporates. That's the operating theory of two-layer DriClime and VR garments. The outer layer is wind-resistant but not wind-proof. In other words it's both air and vapor permeable but far less than say the tricot. Twight is leveraging the outer layer's lower air/vapor permeability to act like a substandard VBL. Any tightly woven synthetic garment will do the same thing.


"Not very wet at all" In other words, not really dry either, huh? :) DriClime is vapor-permeable. Your body's moisture is passing through it and into other layers. If that layer can lose the moisture through evaporation then it'll feel dry. Otherwise it won't. That's why Twight is saying to wear outer layers that allow the moisture to evaporate. You're still moving sweat through all the layers you're wearing. In my opinion, slowing the rate of vapor transmission is, frankly, of dubious merit (stopping it entirely, like with a VBL, has greater benefits as does accelerating it).


Did he explain what else he tried and why DriClime worked best? For example, did he try a VBL? Or just a cheap nylon windshirt? Or did he just try this and nothing else?


If by "breathes" you mean vapor-permeability then no it has limited influence on heat retention. If by "breathes" you mean air-permeability then yes it influences heat retention. High air-permeability allows for convective cooling and accelerated heat-loss. Fleece has high air-permeability and that's why it feels chilly when windy. In comparison, an eVent or Gore-text jacket has near-zero air-permeability but comparatively high vapor-permeability.


Anyhow, I suggest you look for a cheap nylon windbreaker ... or just pick up a spare DriClime jacket the next time one comes up for sale.

"Not very wet at all" means pretty dry (like on a 1-100 scale with 100 being Death Valley on an August afternoon we're probably talking in the 70's). As previously mentioned, the wicking layer and inside of DriClime definitely get soaked. But outside the DriClime shirt there is minimal moisture, far less than I would have if I wore the traditional layering set up. Despite that wetness near the skin though I never get a chill and as effort declines the whole thing dries out super fast, much faster than otherwise. The first time I did this when I got back to the car and took all the layers off everything was completely dry. Not a little damp. Dry. I always attributed that to the heat trapped underneath but I'll defer to your experience on exactly what is making this all happen.
 
DayTrip - that's awesome that you've found a layer system that is working for you. I too am one of those lucky individuals who can simultaneously be cold and sweating. I don't think it's worth going into a doctoral-level discussion on why, physiologically, my body produces sweat in response to heavy exertion, even when cold. It just does. The most difficult (and so far unresolved) situation for me is long runs in the winter. No matter what I wear, by mile 12 or so I'm freezing cold and sweating. Kinda sucks. Hiking isn't dissimilar, but my exertion is somewhat less while hiking so I seem able to manage it all better.

Anyway, I've experimented with a few versions of your system: various base layers (extremely thin polypro base layer, or thicker polypro base layer, or wool base layer / paired with shell materials of varying wind, vapor, and water resistance). In my experience, there are real differences between the options, and there's not a universal system that works for everyone. I know people well who swear by thick base layers, which I have found universally and consistently to make me cold quickly. I've also had poor luck with wool [edit: as a base layer; I love merino wool sweaters]. Even the expensive new stuff. Doesn't 'feel' warm next to my skin when I put it on, gets wet when I sweat, then I get cold.

That was a long-winded preface for what I'm about to say, which is: you might want to simply experiment with various cleaning methods. It's possible, even likely, that you're just not going to find something that works better than your DriClime. It's quite unlikely you're going to find something cheaper that works equally well. Base layers are kind of expensive, as are various wind shirts. And those won't last forever either.

A guy I do overnights with regularly (and consequently have shared a winter tent with many times) has had his DriClime for at least 10 years, and it's not especially funky at this point. And he is a sweaty bastard. That's his go-to system as well: thin base layer plus DriClime. I can pick him out of all of my photos because he's always wearing the same thing, at least below treeline.

The DriClime isn't super hi-tec fabric. Everything degrades with time and with washings, but I wouldn't expect the DriClime to age particularly poorly with washings. Try some pre-soaks (OxyClean vs. 'athletic wear' soap vs. regular laundry detergent) and see how it works. If you find the right funk-removal method, you're good to go.
 
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If you're willing to forego the tricot lining, this is the hoody I picked up a few years ago for $45. It's from Marmot and made of the same material as their "DriClime" garments (which simply add a tricot lining), namely "100% Polyester Ripstop DWR 1.5 oz/yd".

Trail Wind Hoody
Currently $59.50 from Marmot (but only size Large and up).

It's also available in a jacket model for $56 (Small thru XL).
Trail Wind Jacket

If your current DriClime jacket refuses to lose its funky odor after normal laundering, try Mirazyme. I've had success with it. I overlooked to remove a damp rain jacket sealed in a stuff sack in the bottom of my pack. Days later I wondered where it was then had an oh-sh*t! moment. Yup, it smelled like something you'd never want to wear again. The odor lingered after washing it so I soaked it in Mirazyme and that did the trick.

FWIW, I had the Mirazyme on hand because I had attempted to eliminate a persistent odor in a old tent (that had always been stored properly). It didn't work and I concluded it was (sadly) the floor's PU coating oxidizing with age and off-gassing something stinky. No amount of washing, wind, sunshine, or Mirazyme, has eliminated it. Oh well.
 
DayTrip - that's awesome that you've found a layer system that is working for you. I too am one of those lucky individuals who can simultaneously be cold and sweating. I don't think it's worth going into a doctoral-level discussion on why, physiologically, my body produces sweat in response to heavy exertion, even when cold. It just does. The most difficult (and so far unresolved) situation for me is long runs in the winter. No matter what I wear, by mile 12 or so I'm freezing cold and sweating. Kinda sucks. Hiking isn't dissimilar, but my exertion is somewhat less while hiking so I seem able to manage it all better.

Anyway, I've experimented with a few versions of your system: various base layers (extremely thin polypro base layer, or thicker polypro base layer, or wool base layer / paired with shell materials of varying wind, vapor, and water resistance). In my experience, there are real differences between the options, and there's not a universal system that works for everyone. I know people well who swear by thick base layers, which I have found universally and consistently to make me cold quickly. I've also had poor luck with wool [edit: as a base layer; I love merino wool sweaters]. Even the expensive new stuff. Doesn't 'feel' warm next to my skin when I put it on, gets wet when I sweat, then I get cold.

That was a long-winded preface for what I'm about to say, which is: you might want to simply experiment with various cleaning methods. It's possible, even likely, that you're just not going to find something that works better than your DriClime. It's quite unlikely you're going to find something cheaper that works equally well. Base layers are kind of expensive, as are various wind shirts. And those won't last forever either.

A guy I do overnights with regularly (and consequently have shared a winter tent with many times) has had his DriClime for at least 10 years, and it's not especially funky at this point. And he is a sweaty bastard. That's his go-to system as well: thin base layer plus DriClime. I can pick him out of all of my photos because he's always wearing the same thing, at least below treeline.

The DriClime isn't super hi-tec fabric. Everything degrades with time and with washings, but I wouldn't expect the DriClime to age particularly poorly with washings. Try some pre-soaks (OxyClean vs. 'athletic wear' soap vs. regular laundry detergent) and see how it works. If you find the right funk-removal method, you're good to go.

Good suggestion. I should have clarified the "funk" issue. The DriClime washes fine and hasn't held any odors. I'm more concerned with wear and damage from the constant cleaning, especially that thin fleece inner lining. Poly base layers definitely funk out badly on a long day but those are far more economical to replace. I recall one day where I unzipped the DriClime and instantly thought of my cat's litter box. That's why I figured if I could find an economical DriClime alternative I'd really be on to something.

Let me ask you another question: Why not multiple thin layers instead of fewer thick ones? i.e. is 3 thin light base layers better/the same/worse than one thick base layer? One of the other things I have started to mess around with is layering many thin layers as opposed to the traditional light, midweight and heavy model. It allows for more variability versus 1 or 2 options. My current "ideal" set up is wearing two super thin poly base layers, then the DriClime, then (as needed) one fleece (weight pre-selected for expected weather but usually mid weight), then a 10oz Coreloft Arc'Teryx jacket I got on clearance and lastly a soft shell (I have several weights which I again pre-select one based on weather.) When I'm moving this allows me to walk around in pretty cold temps in reasonable comfort and all these components are very light. (I always have a Gore Tex hard shell and rain pants for the extremes or precip).

To me, thin stuff wicks and dries much faster, even if it is layered. One of the biggest things I hate about wearing thick fleeces, merino wool, etc is that when you sweat in it and swap it out for something else it turns into a useless ice cube in your backpack. Thus you either need dry spares (added pack weight) or you're stuck walking in the last set of layers you were wearing, which often winds up being the wrong combo for the conditions. Never really made sense to me. One of the other reasons I tried the DriClime thing.
 
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If you're willing to forego the tricot lining, this is the hoody I picked up a few years ago for $45. It's from Marmot and made of the same material as their "DriClime" garments (which simply add a tricot lining), namely "100% Polyester Ripstop DWR 1.5 oz/yd".

Trail Wind Hoody
Currently $59.50 from Marmot (but only size Large and up).

It's also available in a jacket model for $56 (Small thru XL).
Trail Wind Jacket

If your current DriClime jacket refuses to lose its funky odor after normal laundering, try Mirazyme. I've had success with it. I overlooked to remove a damp rain jacket sealed in a stuff sack in the bottom of my pack. Days later I wondered where it was then had an oh-sh*t! moment. Yup, it smelled like something you'd never want to wear again. The odor lingered after washing it so I soaked it in Mirazyme and that did the trick.

FWIW, I had the Mirazyme on hand because I had attempted to eliminate a persistent odor in a old tent (that had always been stored properly). It didn't work and I concluded it was (sadly) the floor's PU coating oxidizing with age and off-gassing something stinky. No amount of washing, wind, sunshine, or Mirazyme, has eliminated it. Oh well.

Thanks for the links. I missed it scrolling through earlier. I love Marmot gear so I'll check these out.

Also, on the Mirazyme I don't find that it works all that well. For most of the year I normally hike in a baseball hat and they definitely get seriously funked out. Someone recommended Mirazyme for this. Tried it a few times and found the effect minimal. I had better luck just washing it and then sticking it in the freezer for a few days (another recommendation I got based on fact that whatever causes the odor dies below freezing). This worked pretty decent.
 
... another recommendation I got based on fact that whatever causes the odor dies below freezing.
Ha! Simple! I'll give that a try next time. Thanks!


Regarding the clothing system that works for you, I don't wear that much and don't hike with any fleece garments so I can't be of any help on thick baselayers.


FWIW, this is what works for me and I appreciate the fact it may not work for you (or others). However, I offer it up as a comparative model for your own experimentation.

  • Multiple lightweight layers offer the advantage of fine-tuning. When active, one or two lightweight baselayers can be adequate to keep me comfortably cool, minimize sweating, and provide ventilation for evaporation of sweat. I have several baselayers that I pick and choose to bring with me based on the expected temperature. Typically it's a lightweight synthetic crewneck or, for even colder weather, a zip T-neck made of "high void" synthetic (looks like cornrows of microfleece). I also bring a spare one to add as a second layer. Usually it's a lightweight wool/synthetic blend or pure-wool (mostly because I got them cheap). When I say "lightweight" I mean something you can see through and weighs between 5-7 ounces (in Medium).
  • The bugaboo is wind. It only takes a mild breeze to cause rapid convective-cooling ... and remind you of how few layers you're wearing. :) That's where a windshell comes into play. It blocks wind but permits vapor to pass through (albeit not nearly as well as without it). If cold enough, I replace the windshell with a VR hoody (just like your DriClime jacket) or just add the VR over the windshell. When the wind is severe and or there's precip, then the eVent shell goes on top. However, I know a few experienced winter hikers who skip the windshell and go directly to an eVent shell (or some other membrane-based shell).


Here's the VR hoody under the eVent shell. I'm wearing one zip T-neck baselayer under all that. The shell is on only because of the high winds. If it were colder, I'd don my spare baselayer under the VR jacket. If I stop for longer than a few minutes, then an insulated jacket goes on. There's very little fiddling with layers involved.




Here's the windshell (red) under the VR hoody.


Atop Gothics.

As for my hands, they're cold-sensitive so I can be wearing anywhere from one to four layers (including a VBL). Pants are winter-weight softshells and it has to be in the single-digits or lower before I wear long-johns. If I'm overheating I'll roll up the pant-legs, open the pockets, even unzip the fly to get some ventilation going.
 
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Ha! Simple! I'll give that a try next time. Thanks!


Regarding the clothing system that works for you, I don't wear that much and don't hike with any fleece garments so I can't be of any help on thick baselayers.


FWIW, this is what works for me and I appreciate the fact it may not work for you (or others). However, I offer it up as a comparative model for your own experimentation.

  • Multiple lightweight layers offer the advantage of fine-tuning. When active, one or two lightweight baselayers can be adequate to keep me comfortably cool, minimize sweating, and provide ventilation for evaporation of sweat. I have several baselayers that I pick and choose to bring with me based on the expected temperature. Typically it's a lightweight synthetic crewneck or, for even colder weather, a zip T-neck made of "high void" synthetic (looks like cornrows of microfleece). I also bring a spare one to add as a second layer. Usually it's a lightweight wool/synthetic blend or pure-wool (mostly because I got them cheap). When I say "lightweight" I mean something you can see through and weighs between 5-7 ounces (in Medium).
  • The bugaboo is wind. It only takes a mild breeze to cause rapid convective-cooling ... and remind you of how few layers you're wearing. :) That's where a windshell comes into play. It blocks wind but permits vapor to pass through (albeit not nearly as well as without it). If cold enough, I replace the windshell with a VR hoody (just like your DriClime jacket) or just add the VR over the windshell. When the wind is severe and or there's precip, then the eVent shell goes on top. However, I know a few experienced winter hikers who skip the windshell and go directly to an eVent shell (or some other membrane-based shell).


Here's the VR hoody under the eVent shell. I'm wearing one zip T-neck baselayer under all that. The shell is on only because of the high winds. If it were colder, I'd don my spare baselayer under the VR jacket. If I stop for longer than a few minutes, then an insulated jacket goes on. There's very little fiddling with layers involved.




Here's the windshell (red) under the VR hoody.


Atop Gothics.

As for my hands, they're cold-sensitive so I can be wearing anywhere from one to four layers (including a VBL). Pants are winter-weight softshells and it has to be in the single-digits or lower before I wear long-johns. If I'm overheating I'll roll up the pant-legs, open the pockets, even unzip the fly to get some ventilation going.

Thanks. I try to do as little fiddling as possible too. If I've done everything efficiently I'll generally add switch out one layer around treeline (or colder elevation) and add wind protection (soft shell or hard shell) dependng on what is going on. I usually experiment the most around my house so I can monitor temperature and wind (I have a Kestrel meter) and then review how I felt in whatever combination I tried. That way on actual hikes I have a very good idea of what I'll wear so fiddling around is minimized.

As an aside, you inadvertently got me all fired up to climb Gothics again with your photo. I didn't wind up getting out to NY nearly as much as I had hoped this year and Gothics is at the top of m list to do. Might have to make that 4 hour drive sooner rather than later now. :)
 
Let me ask you another question: Why not multiple thin layers instead of fewer thick ones? i.e. is 3 thin light base layers better/the same/worse than one thick base layer?
...
To me, thin stuff wicks and dries much faster, even if it is layered. One of the biggest things I hate about wearing thick fleeces, merino wool, etc is that when you sweat in it and swap it out for something else it turns into a useless ice cube in your backpack.

I thought exactly the same thing and gave two thin layers a try. Specifically, I have two quite old, nearly threadbare polypro tops that I really like as base layers. I thought, why not try putting both on and see what happens. The result was that it felt like one thick base layer more than anything else. For reasons I simply cannot explain, 2 thin base layers did not work well for me. They seemed to not be any warmer, while holding onto more moisture (with predictable consequences). I think it must be some subtle combination of needing a wicking layer next to your skin, one that simply cannot get wet because it's so thin and so hydrophobic. Then you need some air to pull any moisture from your body rapidly through your base layer where it can evaporate. That's why the second base layer fails. I need something relatively loose. The air circulation is important. Similarly, if my base layer is too thick, the moisture seems to accumulate there rather than evaporating immediately, or staying vapor. If it's below about 10 degrees, I wear a relatively thin, loose fleece over my base layer. It's probably '200 weight' and is fully breathable. I only find moisture accumulating on my back with that combo, and my back is usually protected by my pack. If it's windy or very cold, I wear my shell jacket over all of that. It tends to trap moisture, so I vent a lot and try to keep a lot of air circulation happening. Obviously if it's REALLY windy then everything is snugged up tight.

Honestly, I've given up trying to understand why my combo of layers works for me. I still experiment, but I've got a system that works pretty well most of the time, so I don't really worry about it much anymore. And by 'pretty well,' I mean it's sometimes perfect, often not quite perfect but good enough, and occasionally uncomfortable for short stretches. Nothing is perfect all the time. I feel like I've tried all possible combinations.
 
Honestly, I've given up trying to understand why my combo of layers works for me. I still experiment, but I've got a system that works pretty well most of the time, so I don't really worry about it much anymore. And by 'pretty well,' I mean it's sometimes perfect, often not quite perfect but good enough, and occasionally uncomfortable for short stretches. Nothing is perfect all the time. I feel like I've tried all possible combinations.

That's the kicker: the system usually works but on occasion doesn't. I'm a notorious tinkerer so when that day happens I start the futzing process all over again trying to figure out why on the 5th time out of 5 tries it didn't work light the previous 4. The perfectionist in me can't help but try to get 5 for 5 when I likely never will. As long as I still have cash in my checking account and retailers keep sending me coupons I suspect the research will go on. :p
 
That's the kicker: the system usually works but on occasion doesn't. I'm a notorious tinkerer so when that day happens I start the futzing process all over again trying to figure out why on the 5th time out of 5 tries it didn't work light the previous 4. The perfectionist in me can't help but try to get 5 for 5 when I likely never will. As long as I still have cash in my checking account and retailers keep sending me coupons I suspect the research will go on. :p

Good luck with that.;) One of the contributing factors that has most of us flummoxed with our systems, is the moisture content variables we have to contend with in the Northeast. When I started climbing out West, I immediately noticed how easier the dry air was to deal with. I could wear my base layer all day, where as here, I might switch it upon arriving at a summit to reduce chills as the climbing is less strenuous traversing or descending. If you keep track of the weather and humidity on your climbing days, it might help you tweak your system ahead of time, verses on route. Just a random thought.
 
Re Economy DriClime Windshirt:
I've had mine more than 15 years and still use it for biking and hiking. A more recent version had an inferior revision of the breast pocket, not really a big deal. Measured in $/year it's actually a bargain.
Walt
 
Good luck with that.;) One of the contributing factors that has most of us flummoxed with our systems, is the moisture content variables we have to contend with in the Northeast. When I started climbing out West, I immediately noticed how easier the dry air was to deal with. I could wear my base layer all day, where as here, I might switch it upon arriving at a summit to reduce chills as the climbing is less strenuous traversing or descending. If you keep track of the weather and humidity on your climbing days, it might help you tweak your system ahead of time, verses on route. Just a random thought.

I have wondered about that, particularly humidity. My Kestrel meter only does temp and wind speed so I don't have a way to measure that other than going off weather reports and I haven't put the effort into getting that detailed with the whole process. The only day my DriClime set up was an epic fail was on a damp, snowy/rainy day on Cabot. I got everything drenched and wound up putting my hard shell on over the whole mess on the way out. I was drenched and chilled. But that was also the one and only time I went with merino wool layers instead of poly too. I don't want to paint the picture that every time I go out I'm getting all flummozed and screwing around with stuff. I have my general system down reasonably well. I just like the experimentation and the quest for the perfect set up. Always willing to try something new for that "break through" moment.
 
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