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Thread: Economy Version Of Marmot DriClime Windshirt

  1. #16
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    I read this part again and it doesn't add up.
    The DriClime shirt I have has a DWR coating, nylon fabric of some sort and a very thin fleece layer on the inside. Are there different types of DriClime shirts?

    I'm not literally trying to wear a vapor barrier on my body and despite what you'd think the intermediate layers between the DriClime shirt and my outer shell do not get very wet at all. Mark Twight specifically recommended the DriClime shirt because that is what he used. I had one so that is what I tried. The DriClime shirt creates enough of an "impediment" to breathability that heat generated from activity stays trapped inside (as well as the moisture) so it doesn't penetrate and soak my fleece or synthetic layers outside of it. The big thing which is a help is when activity is reduced (like stopping or descending) it still retains much of the heat but also distributes the moisture across the wicking layers and the inner liner of the DriClime shirt so it dries quite nicely. And because all the intermediate layers don't get very wet they don't need to dry to maintain maximum warmth. And if I happen to swap one out for a lighter or heavier layer it doesn't turn into a block of ice in my pack because it is not sweaty in the first place. All the "dirty work" is happening between my skin and the inner side of the DriClime shirt. I'm no science guy but all I can tell you is it works pretty well, for me anyway. It breathes but it does so slowly enough to retain heat and keep the moisture management process largely between my skin and the DriClime shirt. If I remember right I do get some moisture on the exterior of the shirt as well but it is not significant enough to soak into the mid layers. It just stays there.

    So maybe the answer is the DriClime shirt is the right garment and I'll have to deal with the longevity of it. Maybe it is in fact doing more than what a plain old wind shirt would do.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  2. #17
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougPaul View Post
    While wool may be slower to dry, it is generally warmer when wet. Back when I started white water boating (done primarily in spring over cold water) if you didn't have a wet suit raingear over wool was next best.

    BTW, Stephenson is a proponent of and source of vapor barrier clothing: https://www.warmlite.com/product-category/clothing/

    Doug
    That is what I have read but that hasn't been my experience, at least with the merino wool stuff I have. When it gets wet I get a chill. It doesn't seem better than a wet fleece to me.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    Anyway, the trick is to remain comfortably cool so that sweat production is both minimized and allowed to evaporate.
    I used to believe in that trick, but tried to find a way to increase my evaporation capacity so that I could be comfortably warm while hiking. I found a very simple solution that apparently only works for me.

  4. #19
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Just to clarify what I read, in the book Extreme Alpinism: Climbing Light, Fast And High Mark Twight in the clothes chapter describes what he calls an "action suit". Basically it is a "semipermeable vapor barrier"...(such as the Patagonia Zephur or Marmot Dri-Clime Windshirt) over synthetic underwear. He also stresses that for this system to work the layers outside this "second skin" must be more breathable so that they rapidly wick away the moisture that does escape through barrier. (He is a big fan of syntetics like Polarguard 3D and hates wool). To quote the book: "With the semipermeable barrier in your system you don't need to wear as much clothing to stay warm. When temperatures rise or while working hard, the windshirt that is your second skin and can also be your outer layer." As it gets colder simply add breathable synthetic insulation. Never wear a shell unless it is raining or snowing. His goal is to keep the big temperature differential in the second skin so there is little change in temperature from the other layers to the actual air temperatures, thus moisture doesn't want to travel through them as significantly so they don't get wet or frozen and compromised. Whatever moisture that does enter is effectively distributed and evaporates.

    So how much of this is just his opinion or is based in science I have no idea. I wasn't looking to debate the strategy. The guy is pretty accomplished and he makes a compelling case for it. All I can tell you is that as someone who gets cold very easily I found it very helpful. Was simply trying to find a more economical version of the shirt in the event that I prematurely degrade the DriClime.

    DougPaul: His argument on wool is that because it absorbs some moisture, where synthetics do not, it doesn't wick as well, stays wet longer and compromises breathability of the layer system and conducts heat loss. Based on my experiences with wool I totally agree. I don't like wearing it when I know I am going to sweat a lot.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  5. #20
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Keep in mind a guy like Twight moves fast over long distances, his system is designed for that, you might not get the same results at a normal speed. I find simple layering and temp control by hiking "cool" is the key. Also, many are to lazy to make adjustments and end up sweating and getting cold a as result.

  6. #21
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    OK. Again, I have already tried and like the system and it works for me. I'm not sure why my question keeps coming back to that. My question is does anyone know of a cheap version of the Dri Clime shirt and apparently the answer is no.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  7. #22
    Senior Member Trail Boss's Avatar
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    If it works for you great but the theory behind it isn't due to any magical properties of DriClime. Use any cheap synthetic garment with decreased air/vapor permeability. A garbage bag full of holes would work the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    The DriClime shirt I have has a DWR coating, nylon fabric of some sort and a very thin fleece layer on the inside. Are there different types of DriClime shirts?
    Not that I'm aware of. FWIW, Durable Water Repellent (DWR) causes water to bead on the fabric's surface. It doesn't significantly change the fabric's air or vapor-permeability (unlike a PU coating or other form of "membrane"). The fabric's tight weave is what does all the work.

    The tricot lining is to absorb sweat and spread it out over a larger surface. It's very permeable to air and moisture and provides some insulation. The moisture is ultimately absorbed by the outer polyester layer where, in contact with air-currents, it evaporates. That's the operating theory of two-layer DriClime and VR garments. The outer layer is wind-resistant but not wind-proof. In other words it's both air and vapor permeable but far less than say the tricot. Twight is leveraging the outer layer's lower air/vapor permeability to act like a substandard VBL. Any tightly woven synthetic garment will do the same thing.

    .. despite what you'd think the intermediate layers between the DriClime shirt and my outer shell do not get very wet at all.
    "Not very wet at all" In other words, not really dry either, huh? DriClime is vapor-permeable. Your body's moisture is passing through it and into other layers. If that layer can lose the moisture through evaporation then it'll feel dry. Otherwise it won't. That's why Twight is saying to wear outer layers that allow the moisture to evaporate. You're still moving sweat through all the layers you're wearing. In my opinion, slowing the rate of vapor transmission is, frankly, of dubious merit (stopping it entirely, like with a VBL, has greater benefits as does accelerating it).

    Mark Twight specifically recommended the DriClime shirt because that is what he used.
    Did he explain what else he tried and why DriClime worked best? For example, did he try a VBL? Or just a cheap nylon windshirt? Or did he just try this and nothing else?

    It breathes but it does so slowly enough to retain heat
    If by "breathes" you mean vapor-permeability then no it has limited influence on heat retention. If by "breathes" you mean air-permeability then yes it influences heat retention. High air-permeability allows for convective cooling and accelerated heat-loss. Fleece has high air-permeability and that's why it feels chilly when windy. In comparison, an eVent or Gore-text jacket has near-zero air-permeability but comparatively high vapor-permeability.


    Anyhow, I suggest you look for a cheap nylon windbreaker ... or just pick up a spare DriClime jacket the next time one comes up for sale.
    Last edited by Trail Boss; 11-17-2017 at 01:13 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    OK. Again, I have already tried and like the system and it works for me. I'm not sure why my question keeps coming back to that. My question is does anyone know of a cheap version of the Dri Clime shirt and apparently the answer is no.
    You could try Sierra Trading Post and look for cycling jackets. https://www.sierratradingpost.com/pe...hing~d~2379%2F
    Last edited by jfb; 11-17-2017 at 08:17 AM.

  9. #24
    Senior Member jniehof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    My question is does anyone know of a cheap version of the Dri Clime shirt and apparently the answer is no.
    We're trying to figure out what exactly it is about the DriClime that works for you so we can recommend something similar in the relevant parts of the design. You said in the first post you want "without the water repellent finish" but the DriClime has DWR.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post

    Did he explain what else he tried and why DriClime worked best? For example, did he try a VBL? Or just a cheap nylon windshirt? Or did he just try this and nothing else?
    If I was a professional mountaineer, I'd wear whatever my sponsors told me to wear.

  11. #26
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    You could try Sierra Trading Post and look for cycling jackets. https://www.sierratradingpost.com/pe...hing~d~2379%2F
    Thanks. I was looking at some Pearl Izumi stuff on clearance on various sites last night. Cycling does seem like a category with comparable shirts.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  12. #27
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    If I was a professional mountaineer, I'd wear whatever my sponsors told me to wear.
    I'm not sure who sponsors/sponsored Twight but the book is not at all a sales brochure for a particular brand. He offers positive and negative criticism of a wide variety of brands throughout. In the particular section discussed above he mentioned shirts like the DriClime and Patagonia Zephur. He didn't specifically say "go get yourself a DriClime shirt ASAP". I found the book pretty unbiased. He just tried to provide actual gear examples of stuff he was talking about rather than just leaving it to the readers imagination.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  13. #28
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jniehof View Post
    We're trying to figure out what exactly it is about the DriClime that works for you so we can recommend something similar in the relevant parts of the design. You said in the first post you want "without the water repellent finish" but the DriClime has DWR.
    I only mentioned that because I was under the impression that DWR coatings did have some sort of impact on the permeability of garments so I thought that was a factor. As TrailBoss elaborated on above though this impact is minimal and likely not the reason for the luck I have had with it.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  14. #29
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Boss View Post
    If it works for you great but the theory behind it isn't due to any magical properties of DriClime. Use any cheap synthetic garment with decreased air/vapor permeability. A garbage bag full of holes would work the same way.


    Not that I'm aware of. FWIW, Durable Water Repellent (DWR) causes water to bead on the fabric's surface. It doesn't significantly change the fabric's air or vapor-permeability (unlike a PU coating or other form of "membrane"). The fabric's tight weave is what does all the work.

    The tricot lining is to absorb sweat and spread it out over a larger surface. It's very permeable to air and moisture and provides some insulation. The moisture is ultimately absorbed by the outer polyester layer where, in contact with air-currents, it evaporates. That's the operating theory of two-layer DriClime and VR garments. The outer layer is wind-resistant but not wind-proof. In other words it's both air and vapor permeable but far less than say the tricot. Twight is leveraging the outer layer's lower air/vapor permeability to act like a substandard VBL. Any tightly woven synthetic garment will do the same thing.


    "Not very wet at all" In other words, not really dry either, huh? DriClime is vapor-permeable. Your body's moisture is passing through it and into other layers. If that layer can lose the moisture through evaporation then it'll feel dry. Otherwise it won't. That's why Twight is saying to wear outer layers that allow the moisture to evaporate. You're still moving sweat through all the layers you're wearing. In my opinion, slowing the rate of vapor transmission is, frankly, of dubious merit (stopping it entirely, like with a VBL, has greater benefits as does accelerating it).


    Did he explain what else he tried and why DriClime worked best? For example, did he try a VBL? Or just a cheap nylon windshirt? Or did he just try this and nothing else?


    If by "breathes" you mean vapor-permeability then no it has limited influence on heat retention. If by "breathes" you mean air-permeability then yes it influences heat retention. High air-permeability allows for convective cooling and accelerated heat-loss. Fleece has high air-permeability and that's why it feels chilly when windy. In comparison, an eVent or Gore-text jacket has near-zero air-permeability but comparatively high vapor-permeability.


    Anyhow, I suggest you look for a cheap nylon windbreaker ... or just pick up a spare DriClime jacket the next time one comes up for sale.
    "Not very wet at all" means pretty dry (like on a 1-100 scale with 100 being Death Valley on an August afternoon we're probably talking in the 70's). As previously mentioned, the wicking layer and inside of DriClime definitely get soaked. But outside the DriClime shirt there is minimal moisture, far less than I would have if I wore the traditional layering set up. Despite that wetness near the skin though I never get a chill and as effort declines the whole thing dries out super fast, much faster than otherwise. The first time I did this when I got back to the car and took all the layers off everything was completely dry. Not a little damp. Dry. I always attributed that to the heat trapped underneath but I'll defer to your experience on exactly what is making this all happen.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 44/48; NY 46: 5/46

  15. #30
    Senior Member hikerbrian's Avatar
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    DayTrip - that's awesome that you've found a layer system that is working for you. I too am one of those lucky individuals who can simultaneously be cold and sweating. I don't think it's worth going into a doctoral-level discussion on why, physiologically, my body produces sweat in response to heavy exertion, even when cold. It just does. The most difficult (and so far unresolved) situation for me is long runs in the winter. No matter what I wear, by mile 12 or so I'm freezing cold and sweating. Kinda sucks. Hiking isn't dissimilar, but my exertion is somewhat less while hiking so I seem able to manage it all better.

    Anyway, I've experimented with a few versions of your system: various base layers (extremely thin polypro base layer, or thicker polypro base layer, or wool base layer / paired with shell materials of varying wind, vapor, and water resistance). In my experience, there are real differences between the options, and there's not a universal system that works for everyone. I know people well who swear by thick base layers, which I have found universally and consistently to make me cold quickly. I've also had poor luck with wool [edit: as a base layer; I love merino wool sweaters]. Even the expensive new stuff. Doesn't 'feel' warm next to my skin when I put it on, gets wet when I sweat, then I get cold.

    That was a long-winded preface for what I'm about to say, which is: you might want to simply experiment with various cleaning methods. It's possible, even likely, that you're just not going to find something that works better than your DriClime. It's quite unlikely you're going to find something cheaper that works equally well. Base layers are kind of expensive, as are various wind shirts. And those won't last forever either.

    A guy I do overnights with regularly (and consequently have shared a winter tent with many times) has had his DriClime for at least 10 years, and it's not especially funky at this point. And he is a sweaty bastard. That's his go-to system as well: thin base layer plus DriClime. I can pick him out of all of my photos because he's always wearing the same thing, at least below treeline.

    The DriClime isn't super hi-tec fabric. Everything degrades with time and with washings, but I wouldn't expect the DriClime to age particularly poorly with washings. Try some pre-soaks (OxyClean vs. 'athletic wear' soap vs. regular laundry detergent) and see how it works. If you find the right funk-removal method, you're good to go.
    Last edited by hikerbrian; 11-17-2017 at 12:09 PM.
    Sure. Why not.

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