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Thread: Hiker to be Charged for Rescue

  1. #76
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    What's with all the hostility toward out of state "flatlanders"? There are ass hats from every state that travel to other states and expect the royal treatment. Ever been to Newport? NYC? Obnoxious entitled people travel to plenty of places other than NH and demand the world and complain about everything. There are many of us that travel from out of state into NH that are very appreciative of the opportunities in the state, spend our money there and expect nothing in return but the enjoyment of it. I've been going to NH for over 40 years and my perspective on issues in the state is probably far more like yours than someone from MA or CT. Tourism is a substantial part of NH revenues and out of state travelers make up a big chunk of that pie whether you like it or not. That doesn't make us all a**holes. That is just a fact of economics and is nothing special to NH.
    Totally agree. Never said everyone who comes to NH is an ass hat. Nor does everyone whom leaves NH are ass hats. Just some of them.
    Last edited by skiguy; 07-18-2018 at 09:16 AM.
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  2. #77
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    That is awesome....and maybe not a bad idea!
    That might encourage a different kind of "gross" negligence. I am all for it.
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  3. #78
    Senior Member Raven's Avatar
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    Before we continue to pretend hikers don't spend money in NH, consider this:

    Lakes of the Clouds Hut has 90 bunks. They cost $127 a night. They will be sold out Saturday night purchased 100% by hikers. That's $11,470 in ONE NIGHT at ONE HUT. There are 8 huts and many, many nights. I would guess at 8 huts on a Saturday bring in near $50,000. One night. All hikers. Cost of the beds only.

    Hikers don't spend money in NH? Please. I would say they're the top spending recreation group hands down. Is there another group dropping $50k a day here? I'm happy to listen.
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  4. #79
    Senior Member dug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven View Post
    Before we continue to pretend hikers don't spend money in NH, consider this:

    Lakes of the Clouds Hut has 90 bunks. They cost $127 a night. They will be sold out Saturday night purchased 100% by hikers. That's $11,470 in ONE NIGHT at ONE HUT. There are 8 huts and many, many nights. I would guess at 8 huts on a Saturday bring in near $50,000. One night. All hikers. Cost of the beds only.

    Hikers don't spend money in NH? Please. I would say they're the top spending recreation group hands down. Is there another group dropping $50k a day here? I'm happy to listen.
    Skiers......

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven View Post
    Before we continue to pretend hikers don't spend money in NH, consider this:

    Lakes of the Clouds Hut has 90 bunks. They cost $127 a night. They will be sold out Saturday night purchased 100% by hikers. That's $11,470 in ONE NIGHT at ONE HUT. There are 8 huts and many, many nights. I would guess at 8 huts on a Saturday bring in near $50,000. One night. All hikers. Cost of the beds only.

    Hikers don't spend money in NH? Please. I would say they're the top spending recreation group hands down. Is there another group dropping $50k a day here? I'm happy to listen.
    Hunters/fishermen spend $9.5 million just on licenses. That's $25k a day 365 days a year. 100% to the state. Those huts only operate for 3-4 months and the state only sees a small percentage of that $50k.

  6. #81
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshandBaron View Post
    Hunters/fishermen spend $9.5 million just on licenses. That's $25k a day 365 days a year. 100% to the state. Those huts only operate for 3-4 months and the state only sees a small percentage of that $50k.
    I was wondering if the AMC pays the full 9% R&M tax, or if they get some tax benefit. Regardless, it seems as though that money goes into the general fund. As for hunting and fishing licenses that money does go into the F&G budget. I found an interesting revenue/expense breakdown from 2016 that supports that $9m figure for license fees. If 2-3% of the budget comes form general funds, then it looks like at that number is $.5m - $1m annually. My estimate from before for MA day hikers falls between that - and I think it's safe to assume that MA day hikers are less than half of all users benefiting from NH F&G as for this purpose, we should include everyone (including NH residents) generating income to the general fund for due to hiking, fishing, hunting, etc. that they otherwise wouldn't have (NH residents obviously contribute when they eat out locally vs. when they travel to recreate). To people who argue that people needing search and rescue aren't contributing, I think I would have to disagree.

    What this boils downs to is that the NH F&G department likely contributes to far more money going into the general fund than it gets back in its budget. Of course, this is based on estimates and assumptions, but the analysis can be done. Hopefully it has been, but I have doubts. I suspect that NH F&G could make a strong argument for NH to fund S&R from the funds the user pool creates. Although the NH legislature is pushing for anyone who does anything that costs the state money to be forced to reimburse the state? Car goes of the road in winter? The driver has to pay for all the emergency responders' time. A student fails a class? Their parents are charged a prorated costs of the teachers salary, along percentages of with overhead and transportation.

    These are meant to be absurd examples, which the larger point being: if we live in a prosperous society, we accept that sometimes things will happen and people need help. The question is really: do you want to live in a society with emergency services, education, social services, etc? The idea of 'personal responsibility' doesn't negate 'social responsibility'.
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  7. #82
    Senior Member CaptCaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJsName View Post
    I was wondering if the AMC pays the full 9% R&M tax, or if they get some tax benefit. .
    The Appalachian Mountain Club is a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. Donations to the AMC are tax-deductible.

    All that money goes some where butnot to the volunteers, state or F&G. Regardless hikers use up most of the money of F&G funds and contribute the least as far as income into F&G
    Last edited by CaptCaper; 07-20-2018 at 06:40 AM.

  8. #83
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    I'm pretty sure the huts are subject to the room and meal tax. All the rate literature states "taxes extra."

  9. #84
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCaper View Post
    The Appalachian Mountain Club is a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. Donations to the AMC are tax-deductible.

    All that money goes some where butnot to the volunteers, state or F&G. Regardless hikers use up most of the money of F&G funds and contribute the least as far as income into F&G
    Do you disagree with the notion that hikers contribute to the general fund significantly, but that those funds are not passed along to F&G?

    Also, if you look at the 2016 expenditures, I would be hard pressed to find an argument that supports F&G spending more on hikers than they do on anyone else. I would agree that hikers contribute less per trip money-wise than anyone else, but I would argue that the sheer number of hikers out numbers other recreaters significantly. My guess is that skiers would be second and probably only half of what we have for hikers. Of course skiers probably spend five times as much out of pocket I'm not sure how much of that makes its way into the state's coffers.
    Last edited by TJsName; 07-23-2018 at 12:28 PM.
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  10. #85
    Senior Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCaper View Post
    The Appalachian Mountain Club is a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. Donations to the AMC are tax-deductible.

    All that money goes some where butnot to the volunteers, state or F&G. Regardless hikers use up most of the money of F&G funds and contribute the least as far as income into F&G
    Donations to the AMC are tax-deductible, but (as with all 501c3's) only the amount over and above the value of any goods or services you receive. So I can't legally use the cost of a Hut stay to get a tax deduction.

    And those Hut stays are subject to New Hampshire's R&M tax. Because the guests are the one's that pay that, not the AMC.
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  11. #86
    Senior Member Raven's Avatar
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    So yes, other groups spend a lot of money. Ski season is short and getting shorter. Hunters are not real common most months of the year.

    I get tired of hearing hikers don't contribute. And without data on meals, rooms, gear and equipment, we are guessing at best. I spend a lot of money on meals and supplies when hiking.

    Heck, some hikers even stay at the Omni.

    Contributing to the economy of NH and contributing to F&G are not the same.
    Last edited by Raven; 07-23-2018 at 07:05 PM.
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