Wind turbines in GMNF

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Based on my casual observations of the Searsburg wind farm, there is no way that those blades are moving anywhere close to one rotation per 3 seconds. Probably more like one rotation per 10 seconds on average. Maybe 20 rpm is a maximum speed.
 
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RE; Wind Turbines

On 7/19 Tony replied:
Offshore really is the location for this experiment. Much more area to be used, out of site of most people, proximity to the users of the power and generally away from migratory routes.

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That is easy for you to say from where you stand.
Out of site out of mind?
Fact is, most Cape beach recreation will see the not-so distant towers in the same perspective as on a mountain ridge. These towers are 247 ft tall and proposal is for 130 units covering many square miles.

Cape Cod, home to the National Park Service’s National Seashore, is in fact one of the largest migratory stops for birds along the east coast.
Arctic Circle bird migration moves south to this location each winter and then returns north in summer, meanwhile the Southern geese move in to replace the winter groups departed. The Cape is one busy place of both bird and fish migration.
Cape Wind has studied this ecological pattern and provided the public forum with acceptable risks.
Any local community airport probably does more damage in reality.

Please don't get me wrong here, I am a conservationist by the long haul, but our natural resources are dwindling and wind power is an acceptable and practical alternative.

I don't see any proposals for building these on the NH48.

Jeff
 
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Mark S said:
Based on my casual observations of the Searsburg wind farm, there is no way that those blades are moving anywhere close to one rotation per 3 seconds. Probably more like one rotation per 10 seconds on average. Maybe 20 rpm is a maximum speed.



The windmills that are spinning at 29 rpm are the ones that are connected to the grid. The rest are just free-wheeling and not generating.
 
DougPaul said:
But the peaking units have to be online and spinning while the wind units are operating to be able to fill in any gaps.

Not really, they get started remotely and get up to speed quickly.

Peaking Units

You seem to be confusing peaking units with spinning reserve:

Spinning Reserve
 
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Tom Rankin said:
It's actually 2x that, 190 mph. But that is the tip. The closer to the inside, the slower it's going.

(133*2*Pi) * (20/60) = 278 fps = 190 mph


I come up with the same at 20 RPM's.

Pi*Diameter*RPM*60/5280 = 189.9MPH

That speed does seem to be very, very, fast. Tremendous stresses would be induced in the prop. I know that Hamilton Standard had an experimental blade explode in VT a decade or so ago and threw a part of the blade that weighed several hundred pounds, 1/4 mile away. Luckily it landed in the middle of a farm with noone around.

Keith
 
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Brownie said:
That is easy for you to say from where you stand.
Out of site out of mind?
Your reply has me totally baffled. Did you look at the wind map I provided a link to? If you believe wind power is a viable alternative, then land based units are very limited in where they can be productive. All of these places are on mountain ridges and peaks. Also, very few of them are within reasonable distances of the customers (a major cost and efficiency factor for energy production).

I know very little about the Cape Wind program, nor was I advocating a specific site. I based my comments on looking at the wind map. Viirtually everywhere more than a couple of miles offshore has productive wind energy. Places can be chosen out of sight of land, away from migratory routes and within reasonable distance of the end users.

I personally don't find windmills to be visually objectionable, in fact I find them fairly soothing to watch. I do find the roads, transmission line right-of-ways, safety setbacks for ice throws, etc. to be very significant detriments to cohabitation of these same land areas I enjoy. All of these factors are minimal/non-existent with offshore sites. In fact, marine opportunites for diving and fishing may actually improve around the support structures.

But, back to my original post. Am I the only one to find it objectionable to continue to expand our energy production (and no energy production is truly green) when we have made no attempt at conservation?

Tony
 
tonycc said:
But, back to my original post. Am I the only one to find it objectionable to continue to expand our energy production (and no energy production is truly green) when we have made no attempt at conservation?
Tony

No, you're not the only one. :) I conserve energy and resources everyday.

The off-shore wind proposals for Long Island had the turbines 10 miles off shore IIRC. No idea what happened to them.

The continuous and exponential advances in technology make alternative energy production more efficient and profitable (the only way it will ever become a reality in this day and age). Wind production has seen incredible strides, solar is much more efficient, bio-mass, bio-diesel, non-displacement hydro, green nuclear, pebble bed nuclear, tidal capture, hydrogen, fuel cell, off the grid full systems, reverse osmosis, depolymerization. All are close to leaving their baby steps behind. None alone are the silver bullet, but as a mix in the overall picture they are the future that may be, could be, and hopefully will be. It's not called "fossil fuel" for nothing...
 
Deematic said:
Global warming is changing our climates, Acid rain is killing our forests, and high fuel cost are hurting local, state, and fed economies. Lets get a grip. We as a nation and world community need to start doing something and this is a step.
Do they look pleasing to the eye? NO Will it help, YES

Global warming has been happening for about 15,000 years, and it will continue untill Earth wants to begin cooling again. Then it will warm up, then cool down, etc., as it has for millions of years. We have little, if anything to do with it. This is a good thing. I'm glad that the forest isn't a big sheet of ice.

Acid rain is not killing the forest. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought acid rain has been reduced. It would be great to reduce it further, but are we going to be hysterical about it and line every ridge and summit with 230 ft towers? Wind will never generate enough juice.

I think modern technology makes nuclear the best choice. It's clean. We wouldn't put money into terrorist nations, we would nearly eliminate risk of oil spills, we wouldn't have acid rain. We wouldn't have brown-outs, we'd have plenty of clean power. Best of all, we wouldn't have sprawl on the ridges and peaks of the forests. 230 ft towers on ridges and peaks would render the forest ugly and urban.
 
forestnome, Wind can work, it has the potential. The key word being potential. Its not the cure all, but its a step in the right direction.
Hey are you a enviornmental scientest as well as a forest nome wow you rock!! :D
 
RE: Wind Turbines

HTML:
TonyCC wrote:
Your reply has me totally baffled. 
Did you look at the wind map I provided a link to? 
If you believe wind power is a viable alternative, 
then land based units are very limited in where they can be productive.


I saw your wind map and know it quite well, living here on Cape Cod, the East Coasts most windy location!
....which is why I windsurf here….if that helps explain anything :cool:

Thanks to superior engineering, many new wind turbines can operate efficiently to produce energy in wind fields less than 8 miles per hour and up to 55 mph.
What is most interesting about these designs is that the generator produces nearly a constant rate of megawatts regardless of wind strength.
Therefore, locations based on regional wind strength data is really not a major issue, but the coastal sites are likely to produce more overall long term power due to nearly endless wind resources.
Mountain based turbines can prove to be an effective source of power with minimal, regional wind patterns available.

The coastal sites have a fair amount of logistics to overcome as well.
Transfer stations must be land based, in communities where there is little room for development.
The coastal wind patterns may seem like a “most logical” location, but remember coastal storms can damage equipment more severely than inland locations.
Service to these offshore sites really is no easier than a mountain location as well, requiring scuttle barges, support boats and berthing on shore.


Again, please support wind power! ;)

Jeff
 
Deematic said:
forestnome, Wind can work, it has the potential. The key word being potential. Its not the cure all, but its a step in the right direction.
Hey are you a enviornmental scientest as well as a forest nome wow you rock!! :D

Admididly, not quite. Although I took lots of Earth-type sciences, I'm more the tree-hugging-artist type. I just feel really close to the forest and I'm afraid of encroaching sprawl of any kind. Aren't the best views the ones with the least buildings and such stuff, like BondCliff?

Sorry if I sound pesamistic about wind power. I just cannot accept towers on the peaks and ridges of WMNF. There must be another way.

Your love of the forest comes through, and I hope not to dampen your spirit. :)

Right now I'm heading for Franconia Ridge for a moonlit hike. Jupiter and Mars will be out there, and I'll also enjoy many meteors, being late July. I'm in the clouds already!!! :) :) :)

Happy Trails, freind!
 
The GMNF is considering a proposal for wind research towers on Hoosac, Grass, and Corporation Mtns, presumably with wind farms to follow

Activists may wish to comment to GMNF, peakbaggers may wish to tag them before they become off-limits
 
Wilderness benefits

Those of us who disagreed with the recent change in the status of the Wild River area might now see a benefit to protecting the area with Wilderness status, if it keeps towers from being built there.
A reasonable trade off will be to accept these energy sources on less significant peaks. I'd rather see a windmill at the summit of a 2,800-ft. mountain than a coal-fired power plant down in the valley, from that summit.
I agree with those who say a more comprehensive national policy is needed: tax breaks for installing home solar systems; tax breaks for low-cost individual windmills that power homes and can contribute excess to the grid; re-establishing dammed town ponds with small electric generating systems.
To do that, all you'd have to do is overcome the power of some of Wall Street's biggest firms, oil companies and utilities.
Why aren't these windmills being placed on tall buildings in cities, where the need for power is greatest? Danger of falling on crowded populations?
Re: more nuclear power? Too much hubris by this industry 30 years ago. Building Indian Point on the Ramapo earthquake fault seemed to be the final straw for most of us. The peoples' negative reaction led to the already built Shoreham plant being decommissioned at a cost of billions. The fault runs at least 120 miles south, to within 15 miles of my house. At least three other aging nuclear plants are having trouble meeting modern seismic standards. Yet, monitoring stations around Indian Point have been closed. Can't trust the industry or the government (either party) that monitors it.
I have an evacuation route for each of the nuclear reactors surrounding me, since one of them, Three Mile Island, had a major event. I have no evacuation routes for the fossil-fuel plants.
Finally, a news story today predicts significantly higher food costs and more small-farm failures, resulting from higher feed-corn costs, now that we are subsidizing the ethanol industry. How does that help us? And, ethanol gums up small engines.
 
I find it a little funny that "people" want to be see scientific evidence showing the environmental impacts of windfarms. But as soon as the studies show them little or no harm thye still say no because they look "bad" or as I saw "not in my back yard" This is more toward the negative attitude toward CapeWind. sorry

Off of rt 81 in PA (near Scanton) there are two windfarms and I though they were pretty cool to see.
 
jjmcgo said:
Those of us who disagreed with the recent change in the status of the Wild River area might now see a benefit to protecting the area with Wilderness status, if it keeps towers from being built there.
I think that the boundaries of both Wild R & Sandwich addition are such that they don't include any ridgetops suitable for wind farms, the designation will prevent snowmobiling and logging and make hiking more rustic but probably there would be no ski areas or wind farms anyway.
 
brianW said:
I find it a little funny that "people" want to be see scientific evidence showing the environmental impacts of windfarms. But as soon as the studies show them little or no harm thye still say no because they look "bad" or as I saw "not in my back yard" This is more toward the negative attitude toward CapeWind. sorry

Off of rt 81 in PA (near Scanton) there are two windfarms and I though they were pretty cool to see.

I suppose I'm one of those "people" you mention...

I've seen the wind farms between Scranton and Wilkes-Barre. This is a fine example of a PROPER site for wind industry. Seeing wind turbines in an industrial area is a nice thing to see.

What I (and others) have a problem with is proposed wind industry where there is little or no industrial development.
 
I just received the Draft EIS for this project and turbine E-5 appears to be spang on the summit of the E peak, with W-6 and W-7 spanning the W peak. The GMNF intends to close these areas to public access:

"A forest closure order to limit unauthorized public access (foot traffic) along roads and surrounding ridge top areas adjacent and underneath the turbines; exceptions allowed for administrative used and approved public tours."

Some people might like to comment, others to bag them first.
 
My comments are below, if you want to read & comment (by Friday :) this is where:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/greenmountain/htm/greenmountain/links/projects/deerfield_wind.htm

November 26, 2008

Bob Bayer
Project Coordinator
USDA Forest Service
2538 Depot Street
Manchester Center, VT 05255

Gentlemen:

Although I am generally in favor of wind power, I support the No Action
alternative to the Deerfield Wind Project proposal. The treatment of
recreation in the Draft Environmental Impact Statement is so superficial
as to invite an appeal if this project is approved without recreation
mitigation, and the unreasonable and irrational consideration given to
one special interest group is enough to call the impartiality of the DEIS
into question.

To deal with the latter issue first, the DEIS Section 3.12 says that
Vermont Fish & Wildlife estimates the recent number of bears in Vermont
at 4,600 to 5,700. This is 130% to 190% of what it was in 2003 which
itself was more that it has been any time in 200 years. Obviously bears
are doing well in Vermont and whatever happens in the project area will
make little difference in their numbers.

Since the human population of Vermont is much greater than Colonial times
and the land much more developed, a more impartial judgment might be that
with the present bear numbers there are far too many predators at the top
of the food chain and that bear numbers should be drastically reduced so
that other species don't suffer. Even Vermont Fish and Wildlife proposes
to stabilize the population and harvest surplus bears. Instead, the
Forest Service is proposing a vast recreational closure to pedestrians
that was not even reviewed by the bear panel. This closure is unnecessary
and irrational and the Forest Service either carelessly or deliberately
skimped on the recreational analysis so it could be proposed.

In contrast to the multiple studies and years of data on bats, bears, and
birds, the Forest Service apparently made no attempt to collect
recreational use data. They did not contact hiker, skier, and hunter
groups for participation data, install register or card systems at likely
access points to the project area, or use researchers or cameras to
estimate user numbers over a period of years. Backcountry glade skiing is
not even mentioned as a recreational use. Thus the whole DEIS is based on
poor assumptions which tend to minimize and ignore recreational use.

The lack of attention paid to recreation is evidenced by the many
conflicting statements regarding recreational use:
* Section 1.4.3 states "Public access to public lands would not be
restricted, except in the immediate vicinity of the wind turbines and the
ancillary facilities."
* Section 3.12 states "a forest closure order would close the proposed
wind facility roads and surrounding ridge top areas adjacent and
underneath the turbines to all public uses, including foot traffic..."
Depending on the amount of ridgetop land included, this would directly
eliminate access to a substantial part of the area and indirectly limit
access to Forest land that would no longer be accessible except across
private land.
* Section 3.17.2.2.2 states "A public access control plan similar to the
plan in place for the existing Searsburg Wind Facility would be
developed." That private land bans recreational use entirely which would
be totally unacceptable on National Forest lands.

Different recreation user types will be affected differently by the
proposal. Skiers are probably the least affected. If the project roads
are plowed, this will cut off some runs even in the absence of any
closures. If the overhead powerline swath is closed, access to most of
the open area will only be possible via a dangerous walk down VT-8 from
the parking area.

Hunting potential in the area will automatically be restricted as no
reasonable hunter will shoot near or in the direction of the turbines.
Banning hunters from roads and ridgetops will further reduce the area
available to hunters, including areas of National Forest land that would
be inaccessible without crossing roads or private land which have
apparently not been noticed by the DEIS preparers. If game is wounded, it
will become illegal to follow it if it crosses project roads. Due to the
overabundance of bears statewide and the notation in Section 3.12 that
bears presently coexist fine with hunters in the project area, there is
no reason for the irrational road closure.

Hikers with no particular destination in mind will be less affected by
the project than peakbaggers who care mostly about summits. In
particular, peak 948+m is one of the 100 highest peaks in Vermont and
continuing numbers of hikers will wish to climb it. If the Forest Service
unreasonably bans access to this peak, some hikers will continue to climb
it illegally and will develop a general disrespect for Forest Service
rules and policies. The more law abiding will probably not bother to
start a list of peaks they can't finish and may choose to climb the 100
highest of the Adirondacks or New Hampshire instead. At perhaps $50 per
day spent in the local economy, Vermont hospitality providers may not
wish to lose those 100 visits per hiker.

So what do I consider reasonable recreational access? Here is a suggested
plan:
* Substations and the .065 acre permanent footprint of each turbine would
be closed to the public except as allowed by the permitee and the Forest
Service, see below for summit access.
* Project roads would be closed to public vehicular use and would not be
used as part of trail systems, but pedestrians could cross them and walk
short portions. Wounded game could be tracked on roads as far as it goes.
* Ridges and cleared areas including assembly areas near turbines would
remain open to the public. Only specific proven safety hazards and
drastic reduction in bear numbers would allow for review of this item.

The statement in section in 3.13.2 that "No significant issues were
raised during public scoping in regard to the direct impacts of the
Proposed Action on developed and dispersed recreation..." is simply not
true. I expressed my concern about continued hiker access to the high
points of both the East and West ridges (peaks 948+m and 888+m) in an
e-mail comment 8/19/2005 (duly receipted by the Forest Service) but the
bear-bedazzled Forest Service chose to ignore this issue. It would have
been a zero-cost option to shift the turbines slightly at design stage to
avoid summit encroachment but would probably be considerably more
expensive to change things now. In lieu of adjusting turbine locations, I
propose that the following Recreation Mitigation Requirement be written
into the Record of Decision:
"Forest visitors will be allowed access at no charge to summit areas at
reasonable times by appointment with the permittee. To preserve the
previous hiking experience, they may be required to hike without trail
from VT-8 as before, or for safety reasons they may be required to follow
reasonable designated routes at the option of the permittee."
 
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