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View Full Version : Temporary Outfitter Guide Permit????



TDawg
05-02-2006, 01:40 PM
At Lincoln Woods before we started our overnight to the Bonds we were mildly hastled by ranger Fred at the station there.

He made me fill out this temporary permit (http://www.parazz.com/photos/99922835272_12565.jpg) to take my group of 10 (inculding me) into the forest. After I filled it out and he saw we weren't a bunch of assholes, his tone softened up a bit and took a group picture for us.

I wasn't aware of anything like this and my question is if anyone else has had to fill it out also? Or was he just hastling me because I had a large group of twenty-somethings? :) I was thinking it is the latter, and he figured there was a good chance we would trash the place or burn it down (we did neither), and needed to hold me accountable by getting an address.

Among other things it says on the temporary permit, it mentions if I fail to get the permit I will be fined heavy and/or get thrown in jail. Seems a little ridiculous for a forest we all pay for through our taxes.

It says something will be sent to my house in MA, and if needed, I will be charged for a real permit? Any advice is welcome because this is new to me. :o

sapblatt
05-02-2006, 01:43 PM
It looks unnecassary unless you are a professional guide...there may be regs about no groups larger than 10...not sure about the rest...

giggy
05-02-2006, 02:00 PM
there was problems lately over that way - forestknome (sp) made mentions of the slobs at a trailhead near there on the kanc and they even took a dump and left it on display or somehting - wonder if this had something to do with that

I think there is technically a group limit for the WMNF - but I don't pay attention to silly regulations like that - where if 3 people leave 15 minutes later - now you have a group of 7 and 3. I would just leave with the 10 and be done with it.

but he was probably just trying to do his job - can't fault the guy for that- of all the rangers I have run into about 50% are dicks and 50% are great guys. he was probably trying to suss you out - but I hate the idea of hassle/punishment before you do anything wrong. contact the ACLU and sue for age discrimination!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would not lose sleep over the permit use it to start a fire tonight in the stove. - hope you made some cash from that guiding!!!

David Metsky
05-02-2006, 02:40 PM
Any group that is led may require a guide permit. All AMC trip leaders, for example, are issued guide permits that are required for leading any trip in the WMNF, no matter how many or if any money is exchanged. Guided groups are required to be 10 people or less, IIRC, but am not sure about that.

Since Lincoln Woods serves a lot of Wilderness Area where any group is required to be 10 or less, it makes sense to check on large groups. But if you were leading a trip for any group or organization, regardless of whether it was commercial, you are supposed to have a guide card. Friends getting together for a hike wouldn't trigger it, but it's hard to distinguish exactly what would be the dividing line.

-dave-

Tim Horn
05-02-2006, 02:52 PM
This is the same ranger to whom I turned in 23 empty corona beer bottles.(Could not find the last one in the case). Sorry you found it disconcerting to be stopped and questioned, but 10 people in that age group should set off the bells in the rangers head. Each time I have gone in at Lincoln woods I have been asked where I was heading. Whether I am alone or with another person. So I would not take it personally just a guy doing his job looking out for the well being of our forest. Hope ya'll had a blast.

bill bowden
05-02-2006, 03:09 PM
If I read my card correctly, it is not an "outfitter/guide permit card". It is a card which says I don't have to carry the guide card because the requirement has been waived.

I think the outfitter/guide etc. is for individuals who charge some kind of fee and are accordingly charged for their card by the forest service, while the unpaid volutnteers get the card saying the requirement is waived.

Obviously no one in the bureaucracy cares what I think but the absurdity of having to carry a card that says you do not have to carry a card appears obvious.

TDawg
05-02-2006, 04:16 PM
Yea, I'm sure not losing sleep over it.

It was a great trip and I know he was just doing his job, thats why I was more than cooperative with him. I told him I knew of the 10 person regulation and the 200 ft. rule from trails or water, and agree the forest needs at least a few rules.

He turned out to be pretty friendly anyway.

sleeping bear
05-02-2006, 05:25 PM
[QUOTE=bill bowden]
I think the outfitter/guide etc. is for individuals who charge some kind of fee and are accordingly charged for their card by the forest service, while the unpaid volutnteers get the card saying the requirement is waived.
QUOTE]

Yeah, I just finished filling out all that crap to send one of our camp groups to the Whites this summer. It's all based on fees charged. You have to sign saying you've read and understand the wilderness rules, but there isn't anything seperate for that. I did briefly read something about in order to visit Franconia Falls you have to register in the morning and they only let a certain number of people go. ??

I'd agree that he just saw group of kids and wanted to have someone to hold responsible if you trashed the place. He probably figured you guys wouldn't challenge him on the permit and he'd get your name and address. Especially on the heels of that other incident that's also been mentioned. They're probably just tyring to crack down. Can't really blame them much I guess, other than it's a pain in the butt.

Peaks
05-02-2006, 05:58 PM
I believe that any group that goes into the WMNF technically needs to contact Jennifer Batt ahead of time. This includes not only AMC, but Boy Scout, college groups, summer camps, etc. Nothing new. It's been a requirement for a long time.

I recently contacted them about a couple of trips I am leading. Jennifer asked me to email her some information about where and when, and the type of group I was leading. She promptly emailed me "Outfitter Guide Contact Cards" for all adult leaders on the trip, along with Backcountry Camping Rules, and Hike Safe cards. The cards state that "permit waived/not required." because "there are no customer charges, direct expenses are shared by the group, guides are not compensated, and your program is non-commerical and acts to further the health, safety, and welfare of a broad segment of the population."

David Metsky
05-02-2006, 06:12 PM
Boy, I gotta read that card again...

What everyone else said.

-dave-

sleeping bear
05-02-2006, 06:28 PM
I believe that any group that goes into the WMNF technically needs to contact Jennifer Batt ahead of time. This includes not only AMC, but Boy Scout, college groups, summer camps, etc. Nothing new. It's been a requirement for a long time.

I recently contacted them about a couple of trips I am leading. Jennifer asked me to email her some information about where and when, and the type of group I was leading. She promptly emailed me "Outfitter Guide Contact Cards" for all adult leaders on the trip, along with Backcountry Camping Rules, and Hike Safe cards. The cards state that "permit waived/not required." because "there are no customer charges, direct expenses are shared by the group, guides are not compensated, and your program is non-commerical and acts to further the health, safety, and welfare of a broad segment of the population."

So what constitutes a "group"? More than one? If someone else goes with you you need a permit? That seems ridiculous.

To be a group, does it need to be organized? As in waivers, leaders etc? Even if no fees are charged?

Dr. Dasypodidae
05-02-2006, 06:36 PM
Ranger Freddy is one of the good guys, has hiked the Franconia Loop in less than 3 hours, and is not to be confused with Ranger Dick(head), who is trying to eliminate all evidence of the trail to Owls Head, tearing down cairns such as the one atop West Bond, etc.

TDawg
05-02-2006, 07:33 PM
So I fill out what they are sending to my permanent address (for now) in MA. And then I have a permit for how long? A year? Forever?

jade
05-02-2006, 08:45 PM
This is all very disturbing to me.....
....George Orwell :(

Jaytrek57
05-03-2006, 07:10 AM
I have been getting the OFG cards for my youth groups for years. It is one of the many ways to monitor use.

Any group (orgainization) that is "led" in the WMNF needs them. This includes "educational" purposes. The cards are good for the year. At the end of the year you are suppose to send in your stats (trips), at least I use to do this. ;)

Groups, let's say from this board as an example, that meet up at a parking lot do not fall into the OFG standards. Actually, a few years ago, at LW, a bunch of us were asked for the cards.

As mentioned earlier, this practice has been around a long time, and IMHO, serves a purpose in monitoring use, particularly by groups.

peace.

4000'er
05-03-2006, 07:27 AM
After I filled it out and he saw we weren't a bunch of assholes, his tone softened up a bit and took a group picture for us.
Sounds like he is collecting evidence to be used against you at the trial.

Bob
05-03-2006, 09:25 AM
Our parking fees at work...

TDawg
05-03-2006, 10:25 AM
Any group (orgainization) that is "led" in the WMNF needs them. This includes "educational" purposes. The cards are good for the year. At the end of the year you are suppose to send in your stats (trips), at least I use to do this. ;)


Thanks


Sounds like he is collecting evidence to be used against you at the trial.

HA!

Well I might as well jump through some hoops and get mine. :cool:

Chip
05-03-2006, 10:54 AM
I'd like to know more about the rangers, trails, parking, etc. and how they are financed. WMNF, AMC, RMC, and all. I'm always amazed at the available parking, condition of the trails, facilities, etc. (in a GOOD way !)

Nobody likes being told what to do and how to do it, but if the alternative is no parking, no trails and hoards of sapling burning, littering drunks roaming the woods, I'll take "Big Brother".

BTW, TDawg, no trial will be required - you pretty much agreed to being fined $5000 and spending 6 months in jail. ;)

MadRiver
05-03-2006, 11:31 AM
Being slightly left of Marx politically speaking, Iím not a big fan of abusive regulations, be it federal, state, or local. However, I always stop in the ranger station and mention where I am headed when I do a multi-day trip, as well as stop and chat with any ranger I happen to meet on the trail. I have found that being courteous to the rangers and letting them know that LNT ethics flows through my veins will be rewarded in the long term. As much as I do not cow tow or simply acquiesce to anyoneís dictates, I also do not cop an attitude because some regulation exists that I do not agree with. I personally have no problems with the current level of regulations. In fact, some I hope never change like prohibiting ATVís from the Wilderness Protection Areas.