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boombloom
02-25-2004, 06:21 PM
Whoops! I was about to post and something went horribly wrong. I wonder if maybe my previous attempt will end up here anyway....

Well, I'm wondering about the leash laws in the Adirondacks. I understand why they exist. But every once in a while I like to let the pup run. I know that the rules are enforced in the area around Marcy Dam. I wonder though, can I let him go free on Big Slide? Giant? Hurricane? Cascade? After all, he is a VERY good dog.....

rdl
02-25-2004, 08:55 PM
From this (http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/regs/190b.htm#top190.13) web site(NYS DEC) the following regulations apply:
In the Eastern High Peaks Zone, no person shall fail to leash pets on trails, at primitive tent sites, at lean-to sites, at elevations above 4,000 feet, or at other areas where the public congregates

There's more but that about covers it.

The Eastern High Peaks are "that portion of the High Peaks Wilderness Area located to the east of the ridge line immediately west of the Indian Pass Trail" from the same web site.

So in English, I guess it means that dogs(pets) must be on leash at all times in the area between Indian Pass and the AMR property.

MrOysterhead
02-25-2004, 09:48 PM
Like rdl said - as long as you are below 4,000 feet and not near a campsite, lean-to, or area like Marcy Dam - your dog dosen't have to be leashed. Also, I don't think dogs are allowed at all in the AMR. So - let him run free on trail - you should be fine. :D

peace,
Oysterhead

porky
02-26-2004, 12:50 AM
Hmmm.... It *says* that you have to keep your dog leashed on trails, so that seems to *mean* that you have to keep your dog leashed on trails. I dunno, I've only been readin' an' writin' English for fifty-odd years, but that's what I get out of it ;o)

Hikers with dogs are definitely not permitted on AMR property,

porky pine

MrOysterhead
02-26-2004, 05:56 AM
Funny how I totaly misread that. Must have been way more wiped last night then I thought I was. Sorry boom - no unleashed dogs allowed.

peace,
Oysterhead

Pete_Hickey
02-26-2004, 07:16 AM
The rules are SLIGHTLY different on Giant (Which is not in the High Peaks). The rules for Giant state, "All pets, except for hunting dogs in the appropriate season under the control of a licensed hunter will be required by regulation to be leashed at campsites and lean-tos, elevations above 4,000 ft, or at areas where the public has congregated."

Note that "on trails" has been left out. Will this cause confusion? (different rules on each side of Rt 73). In general, the DEC has less restrictive rules in lighter used areas, which is probably good, but will things change to avoid confusion?

Grumpy
02-26-2004, 10:29 AM
Well, that bit of ambiguity caused by subtle differences between leash rules for the Adirondack Eastern High Peaks and the Giant area really should not be a problem for conscientious people who are willing and ready to take real responsibility for and control over their pets.

I observe that leashes are good things, whether strictly required or not. Good for Roverís owner, good for people whom Rover & Company meet while hiking, and good for Rover him/her/it/self. We probably would have little need for leash rules or laws, and doggies would be welcome in a lot more places had more people used leashes in the past. Water over the dam now, but something to contemplate as a lesson for the future.

(Iím a dog owner and dog lover and I hike with my dog.)

Sometimes I wonder if we shouldnít have leash laws for children, too . . . but thatís another topic altogether. :p

G.

rtrimarc
02-27-2004, 09:50 AM
I too am a dog owner and lover and hiker with a dog. But i am terribly conflicted. Having to leash my dog on the trail certainly diminishes the enjoyment for me and her. Not a lot, but some, and i would prefer to let her run. BUT, i have been camping too many times - ironically at the top of Roaring Brook Falls twice - when i was literally assaulted by free running -friendly(overly) - but still unleashed dogs. While cooking on my camp stove, they came thru and knocked over the stove, spilling the water i was boiling, and generally disrupting the campsite. Not that i expected to have a quiet wilderness experience in a campsite near a popular waterfall. But i didn't expect or appreciate THAT.

Also, when hiking and a dog runs up from the other direction owners trailing, one has no idea of the dogs intent, or temperment. It can be a little nerve racking. So i ALWAYS leash my dog. Wouldn't have it any other way. My buddy is a rafting guide in Moab Utah. He took his Blue Healer hiking out there, and the dog ran ahead, tried to hop up a boulder, and ended up with a spiral fracture in one of his rear legs. Freak thing, but Blue Dog taught me a lesson - it is good for the dogs safety too.

Really no point here, just my experience/opinion. Leash your dogs.

RVT

Rik
02-27-2004, 03:32 PM
These laws are enforced!

I was ticketed almost two years ago for having my dog off leash in the High Peaks. The ranger was very friendly about it but said he had to give me a ticket. It cost me $15. It was a weekday in March and the ranger (on skis) was the only person I had seen that day. I knew the rule and that I was breaking it but I also know my dog and didn't think I would see many people. His leash was in my pocket. I usually only take him when I don't expect crowds and always leash him when I come upon others. He has never had a conflict on the trails and has about 38 high peaks to his credit. Not to mention most of the Catskill 35 and about 20 of the NH48. He stays right next to me but I don't think it is as fun for either of us when he can't at least spend part of the day off leash. I also think that it can be just as unsafe to have him on leash if one of us falls. I don't bring him to the high peaks much now as it is not worth it to keep him leashed all day.

TomEske
02-27-2004, 05:21 PM
Bring your dog to the Catskills and enjoy yourself. Tooo many rules up north!
I've met dozens of dogs on the trails and never had a problem, and never heard a complaint, although some folks would complain if you hung them with a brand new rope.
Hiking with a dog on a leash in mountainous terrain is dangerous for the dog and the owner.
Of course it should go without saying that some dogs are not trained for hiking and should be left home. I've had dogs that did well on the trail and dogs that don't mind me, like the one I have now. I love her dearly, but don't think I'll ever get her out on the trail because she doesn't mind me well enough.
My 2 centavos.
Tom

alone
02-27-2004, 06:27 PM
Yeah right...good doggy, until it bites someone, or shits on the trail, or in a stream. There are very very good reasons dogowners MUST be required to keep their pets on a leash; those are only two. If ppl like you cant abide by the rules, then why not cut down trees and burn them? Well gee whiz, I was cold! Or how about postholing up a ski or snowshoe winter trail, cause yur too cheap to rent or buy snowshoes...and too lousy a skiier. Hey, let's bring our battery powered boomboxes and play Def Lepperd all night long. See boombloom, this is why there are RULES. And they apply to every dog, even the so-called "good" ones. Get a leash and USE it!! Us petless hikers demand it.

Pete_Hickey
02-27-2004, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by rtrimarc
I too am a dog owner and lover and hiker with a dog. But i am terribly conflicted.

I know what you mean, even though I'm not a dog owner.

My son had a great example in filling out his questionaire for the 46ers.... (Note that this was written by a 10 year old) When asked his favorite and least fovorite, he listed Gothics as his least favorite. As he neared the summit, he was chased by a (not friendly) dog. He spent his time on the summit crying. His favorite summit was Allen. This because there was a nice friendly dog (unleashed) on the summit.

The fact taht a 10 year old listed a dog as what made his favorite and least favorite trip, says a lot of the conflict.

DeadFred
02-27-2004, 08:05 PM
Yes, a very conflicting topic.

But "alone", if you want to flame like that go somewhere else. Thoughful people are interested in having a thoughtful dialogue on this issue. Take your flames elsewhere. Know the rules before you cite them. Dogs are permitted leashless in many areas of the Daks, Cats, Apps. and Whites.

Pete, great story. Like people, good and bad dogs abound (often a reflection of the owner, as the saying goes). On balance most I've come across are great.

And for what it's worth my dog's a 34'er and she's leashed (reluctantly) where the rules dictate such. (And left at home when hiking in restricted areas like the AMR-no cheating here.)That's why I try to climb where the leash laws don't apply. We both enjoy it much more and it's safer than having here strangled (which has occured a few times).

Peakbagr
02-27-2004, 08:28 PM
Folks, almost every other dogs-hiking thread I've seen eventually takes a hard turn for the worst. Lets keep this discussion civil.
Fred, you and I usually agree on things. In years of leading trips, I've seen enough bad dog and dog-owner behavior to make me want to keep my dogs leashed, regardless of the diminished fun for all.
As to the Catskills, a friend and were nearing the last drop to the car from Wittenberg this Fall. Smiling couple coming up late in the day had a HUGE unleased dog. I stepped aside to let them pass, and in doing so, my hiking pole came up. The dog thought I intended to do harm to it, and charged me, growling with teeth bared. I've owned enough dogs to know when they mean business. It was only my putting the business end of the pole between the dog's muzzle and my friend and I that kept us from getting chomped. As to the dog's owners, a weak "here Fido" as they snagged the collar, looking irritated, and made my friend and walk off the trail to avoid the dog. An apology would have been nice.

alone
02-28-2004, 08:21 AM
flames?
The reference to lighting a fire was an example of rule-breaking.
I have as much right as you to reply and when I want to, I will! The choice of words I use is up to me not you, and if you dont like what youre reading, dont read it! So, why dont YOU keep YOUR opinions to yourself there bubba.

As far as the areas of the 'Dacks where poochy is allowed untethered, thats fine with me. I too have a dog, but I keep him home so as to NOT bother or otherwise disturb other hikers. The word for this bubba is CONSIDERATION, something some pet owner's have omitted from their vocabulary while hiking. My dog would probably not harm anyone, but since we are humans and not canines, it is IMPOSSIBLE for ANYONE to know what their dog is going to do.

The mere sight of a dog running whilly-nilly towards someone is enough to freak some ppl out. Do what we must do more of before you spout off again..............THINK ABOUT IT.

Doc McPeak
02-28-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by alone
The word for this bubba is CONSIDERATION ...

I believe CONSIDERATION also relates to forums.

Rik
02-28-2004, 05:53 PM
My dogs had such fun hiking unleashed in the Catskills today!

To "Alone": If you can't say something nicely...

Your opinions would get much greater respect if they didn't sound so insulting.

shadowcat
03-01-2004, 10:05 PM
this thread reminds me of the twists & turns the discussion on postholing took. i think all these conflicts could easily be resolved if:
1. Hikers: instead of thinking (or not) of what WE want to do - take a minute to think about whether or not OUR choices are going to cause problems or conflicts with others you'll be sharing your day with. Really, do these things have to be such problems? Isn't the whole point of "escaping" to the mountains to get away from the petty bs? I know I don't want to come out of the woods more stressed than when I went in - do you? I don't think so. So come on people -- just use some common sense, courtesy & respect - after all we have to share these mountains like it or not.
2. Rangers/ADK etc: I do believe with more & more people hiking, there needs to be more education on the rules & laws. A suggestion would be for rangers to be out & about more, not just around the Adk lodge but randomly visiting other sites too. (I have never seen a ranger anywhere except around Marcy) I did some hiking in Vermont & there were rangers around to educate folks on respecting the fragile environment, leash laws, etc. They weren't overbearing or anxious to fine people - I actually thought they were really cool & helpful. I don't think, we as hikers should be having to police the trails that's not what we are there for - but is sure seems to be the direction things are going. (even at the sign in sites there's little or nothing posted on trail rules)

What's the deal with the rangers anyway? Do they need more Volunteers? Why aren't they out more. You'd think with all the complaints posted this winter about postholing for example they'd jump at the chance to get out there and try to make some changes or some money. Even a few warnings I'm sure would make a difference.
Oh well....

KZKlimber
03-02-2004, 08:26 PM
If you click on "user CP" and "ignore list "you can automatically delete posts from people whose opinion you do not value.

You will never see their posts again.

Hence the name "Alone"

Stone Hiker
03-04-2004, 05:33 PM
Thank you for an insightful post. Too many times, the debate on dogs is strictly black and white. You are either a dog lover, and dogs have the same rights to the trail as any other breathing creature; or you are a dog hater, and wish all canines to be banished from the trail. It's nice to see a dog owner who can see it from both sides.

If people always had control of their dogs, then leashes could be optional. But I've personally had several occasions where a dog has misbehaved (growled, left a little dog-snot on my sandwich, jumped up one me, etc.), and the owner simply said to me, "Hmmmm, he's never done THAT before." Perhaps the most offensive is when a dog is left to run amuck on a summit, peeing on alpine vegetation, treading on dangerous ledges, and generally becoming the focus of the summit experience, as I hear the owner fruitlessly yelling, "Here, boy. C'mon, Snaps. Come back here."

The problem is this: There are many dogs that would be perfectly fine on the trail with no leash whatsoever. They "know" how to act, and their owners know this. So in reality, these owners are perfectly justified in keeping the dog unleashed. However, there are a lot of folks who *think* that their dog behaves fine, when in reality, the pup can use a bit more training or experience. So as a result, they have to make universal laws to cover for the inconsiderate dog owners, and these rules unfortunately hurt the considerate ones.

It's a tough debate, but these universal laws also apply to other backpacking restrictions (campsite rules come to mind). You have to set a standard for those who are not courteous to do so on their own.

Now, if we can only set up a rule for cell phones on the summit. If I hear "Guess where I'm calling from" one more time, I'm gonna smash a Motorola. I promise you.



Originally posted by rtrimarc
I too am a dog owner and lover and hiker with a dog. But i am terribly conflicted. Having to leash my dog on the trail certainly diminishes the enjoyment for me and her. Not a lot, but some, and i would prefer to let her run. BUT, i have been camping too many times - ironically at the top of Roaring Brook Falls twice - when i was literally assaulted by free running -friendly(overly) - but still unleashed dogs. While cooking on my camp stove, they came thru and knocked over the stove, spilling the water i was boiling, and generally disrupting the campsite. Not that i expected to have a quiet wilderness experience in a campsite near a popular waterfall. But i didn't expect or appreciate THAT.

Also, when hiking and a dog runs up from the other direction owners trailing, one has no idea of the dogs intent, or temperment. It can be a little nerve racking. So i ALWAYS leash my dog. Wouldn't have it any other way. My buddy is a rafting guide in Moab Utah. He took his Blue Healer hiking out there, and the dog ran ahead, tried to hop up a boulder, and ended up with a spiral fracture in one of his rear legs. Freak thing, but Blue Dog taught me a lesson - it is good for the dogs safety too.

Really no point here, just my experience/opinion. Leash your dogs.

RVT :p

crazymama
03-06-2004, 09:19 PM
So far I've been lucky...all the other dogs I have encountered off-leash have been well behaved. My usual reaction is envy, as I have one of those dogs which I don't dare take off the leash because he doesn't listen when he's off.

He would definitely be the one to happily jump up on folks with his muddy paws, or accidentally knock over someone's stove, if he had the opportunity.

But I know he would rather be on the trail on a leash, than sitting at home while I hike. So I take him when I can, on-leash.

shadowcat
03-07-2004, 05:49 AM
one thing that kind of bothered me this winter was the number of people i saw who had their dogs out in the frigid cold hiking. i mean i was cold even with insulated boots and these people had their dogs out - only 1 had any protection on their paws. don't their pads get frostbiten - these weren't huskies or other dogs bred for winter conditions either - what's with that?
and if you read the trail review about poop on the trail - don't they have to pick up the dog poop like they do in the city? just curious.

crazymama
03-07-2004, 07:36 AM
I always pick up my dog's poop whether I'm in town or on the trail. To me, its just common courtesy. I wish everyone felt this way.

I can't think of anything more disgusting than stepping in dog poop.

truepatriot09
03-07-2004, 08:53 AM
most dogs do fine in the winter as long as they keep moving. my pups prefer that snow than warm weather hikes. however if it were dangerously cold out i'd probably invest in some bark n' booties.

i used to hike with my dogs off leash but have since realized the havoc they can create even though neither of them would ever hurt anyone. in particular one of the pooches beat me to the summit of lafayette in the whites and proceeded to beg for food from those having their lunch. i've since kept them leashed and i find we have a few moments of privacy i'll let them off for a scamper in the woods (unless it's a particularly busy day on the trail) so they can stretch their legs. but like crazymama said, i'm sure they'd rather be hiking on leash than laying at home on the couch. it's a small price to pay.

KZKlimber
03-07-2004, 11:21 AM
At the base of an ice route the melting snow uncovered some dog poop which we noticed after my partner stepped in it with his crampons. Fortunately, the rope was several feet away. It would be pretty bad to get it on your climbing rope.


I must add this was a local place where non-climbers frequently walk with their dogs and probably don't realize the impact.

:mad:

Pete_Hickey
03-07-2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by KZKlimber
At the base of an ice route the melting snow uncovered some dog poop .....

Similarly, when skiers talk of springtime conditions and brown klister, they are not talking about wax.

ecc
03-07-2004, 08:57 PM
Here's a new twist on the familiar dog off a leash story. I was skiing back from Pine Orchard in the southern Adk's with my dog attached to my padded pack belt by a retractable leash, when 2 unleashed dogs came bounding down the trail ahead of their snow shoeing owners. My dog being leashed felt threatened and as the other 2 approached, started to growl and bark. Undeterred, the other 2 kept coming until my guy started snarling, then they got the message. Their owners, in the meantime, could not persuade them to come back or heal and had no control over them.
Here' s funny part. They told me I should keep my dog off the leash so he wouldn't be so intimidated when unleashed dogs approach! What can I say? I just had to shake my head.
ecc

rondak46
03-08-2004, 05:43 AM
.... And points out the impossibiity of the situation; although this thread seems to be staying civil.

Mike

Jake
03-08-2004, 08:22 AM
ecc's story justy proves the fact that you can't legislate against stupidity. I beleive the rules are that even in areas where you aren't required to keep your dog on a leash you are responsible to control your dog. I've too been subject to the encounter between a leashed dog and un-leashed uncontrolled dogs.

I most always keep my dog on a lead, and she's a small terrier. On the rare occasion that we've had an unpleasant encounter between my dog and unleashed agressive one, I'll tell the owner straight off, unless you want your dog whacked on the snout with a ski pole or hiking staff, get your dog under control. I can't count the number of times I've seen the owners try the "stop Fido, comer here Fluffy" routine to no effect. And then offer the tried and true, gee he/ she never does that....

I've never abused an animal, but I'm damn sure going to protect my little one. You just can't reason with a moron.

dug
03-08-2004, 09:37 AM
I keep my dog unleashed unless I'm nearing a known lunch spot, summit, trail intersection, etc.

That won't change, so please don't think you will change me.

Yes, I pick up her crap if near the trail. No, she won't go specifically in the trail, but if it's visible from the trail I'll pick it up. No, I don't pick up all the human crap and toilet paper I see.


I hike almost exclusively in the Whites.

Yes, I will return any pain inflicted upon my dog ten-fold.

rondak46
03-08-2004, 09:39 AM
thanks dug....

maineguy
03-08-2004, 01:12 PM
Wow, we got one guy promising to inflict pain on others and another who quotes a Nazi.

And the hiking with firearms thread was pulled?

Ted

MrOysterhead
03-08-2004, 01:43 PM
Maineguy - I don't think rondak was trying to emulate the Nazi Party with his quote. It seems to be more of a satire of the current US Administration's road to war. Very chillingly similar if you ask me. I do agree that this thread has gotten a little out of hand.

Just my opinion though.

peace,
Oysterhead

dug
03-08-2004, 01:47 PM
"we got one guy promising to inflict pain on others..."

Only because of some of these comments:

"...unless you want your dog whacked on the snout with a ski pole or hiking staff,"

and


"I've never abused an animal, but I'm damn sure going to protect my little one. You just can't reason with a moron."

Yes, if my dog is struck, I will defend her.

I actually agree with the concerns about overly-aggressive dogs, stepping in dogcrap, etc. I'm on that side. In reality, I am about the most-mild mannered person around. I just love the crap out of my dogs, and I do take them hiking when I can. My lab, god rest her soul, I took everywhere and in all seasons. It was a different time. My current dog (pictured at the left) is much too lazy to always go. Getting her out of bed in the mornings can be a chore. She is extremely gentle. However, I won't take her on certain peaks due to the crowds. It isn't as enjoyable for me if I have to keep an eye on something else.

This argument is tired. It crops up on here every 3 months, almost like clockwork. I only posted just to notify everyone that all the amount of complaining in the world really won't make me change my mind. As long as it's legal, I feel up to it, and Millie feels up to it, too, she will come hiking with me. If I am on the trail, she will be off-leash. Period.

I am not trying to be argumentative, controversial, or looking for a fight. Just stating the facts, ma'am.

Peakbagr
03-08-2004, 01:52 PM
If your dog is off-leash in the Western Adirondack H.P.'s, it will have to be on a leash or someone like me will be sure to report you to the rangers for a ticket and the inconvienience.

maineguy
03-08-2004, 02:08 PM
quote:

"Maineguy - I don't think rondak (and I may be wrong) was trying to emulate the Nazi Party with his quote. It seems to be more of a satire of the current US Administration's road to war"

Yes, I know. A nice touch. Mixing politics into every thread. And, anyone who compares ANY US administration with the National Socialists (NAZI) must have slept thru history class...or went to some "elite" university.

How about a thread about hiking with dogs AND firearms?

Ted

dug
03-08-2004, 02:10 PM
Disturbing, maybe. True, definantly.

Years ago, after my lab was about 3/4 of a mile from finishing a marathon 22-mile hike in which she protected our entire group by alerting us to a bear, then keeping the bear out of our camp. While walking by a family, a young child began screaming hysterically about the dog. Her father, PROTECTING his daughter, raised his hand and made a motion to hit my dog.

My dog was so friggin' tired at that point, an aggressive act was completely out of the question. All she wanted was some sleep.; It wasn't in her nature anyway. Yet, because she was within site of this little girl, it was deemed an aggressive act and was almost struck. The whole thing was surreal. My dog was just slowly walking past with a look on her face like "what's your problem, where's the car? I just need some sleep!" I walked past them and ensured my dog kept with me...I left it to the others in my party to "discuss" the father's actions.

If my dog jumped up on you, you would have every right to give her a whack. That isn't the point. The point is how do we often define an aggressive act? Is it a phobia? I do not make light of the little girl and how scared she was. But I also know that my dog did nothing wrong (in this particular case), and any aggressive action toward her would be returned. That is defending my family. I don't have any children, so my dogs are my family and are treated as such.

If this thread has gotten out of hand, it is completely my fault and I do apologize for it. I just think that everyone should fully realize the consequences of their actions before they take them. Slapping or whacking a dog because of an "aggressive" act may not be taken lightly. Again, the problem is what is "aggressive"?

rondak46
03-08-2004, 02:14 PM
.... your dog should be on a leash....


..your threatening comments are unnecessary.

Mike

Mark
03-08-2004, 02:15 PM
I like to see dogs out enjoying the outdoors with their owners, but on leash please.

If a dog is off leash and jumps up on me, I don't know if it is being playful or trying to bite me. Having been bitten once already by a dog that showed no indications that he was going to attack me, I'm probably going to err on the side of caution and defend myself with my hiking poles.

I don't want to see a dog get hurt on the trail, but I'll defend myself if necessary.

dug
03-08-2004, 02:23 PM
Thump! Thump! Thump!

That is the sound of my pounding my head against me desk...

1) If a dog jumps up on you, of course you can defend yourself!

2) There is no leash law in the White Mountains, so if I do take my dog, she generally won't be leashed.

3) My threatening comments were in REPLY to threatening comments.

Folks, it ain't changing. Sorry.

Grumpy
03-08-2004, 02:35 PM
Can it, please.

G.

dug
03-08-2004, 02:39 PM
Thump! Thump! Thump!

Jake first mentioned whacking the dog, I quietly sat on the sidelines until that. THEN, I jumped in.

As for the sniffing, since the dog would be right next to me (or more likely behind me), yes, I would be OK. She would be sniffing you from between my legs. Wait...am I on the wrong board? This sounds like something I wrote in one of those "other" boards.......

Peakbagr
03-09-2004, 07:40 AM
dug,

Your reactions are one of the reasons why there is a leash law in some areas of the High Peaks....
What appears to you aggressive behavior towards your pet may be defensive actions by someone who feels threatened or thinks your dog may be coming at them. If the unleashed dog is not there in the first place, the dog doesn't get hurt, the hiker doesn't get hurt, and you don't risk a felony arrest for assaulting a human being for defending himself when he thinks he or a loved one is in jeopardy.
I have been a hike leader for 25 yrs. In that time, I've seen every sort of bad behavior and manners imaginable, some of them by dogs, and their owners. Over all those miles, I'm still waiting to see a good reason for letting unleashed dogs run all over trails and summits. I'm a person who has had dogs all his life and am not against having a fun day in the woods with Fido. There are thousands of miles of trails with nary a hiker. Given your comments, it would probably be best for you (and us) if you sought out some solitude.

Jake
03-09-2004, 08:16 AM
When my 22lb terrier, on a leash, being restrained by my side is being pinned to the ground or mauled by a snarling, barking, 40, 50...lb, lab, shephard, retriever, take your pick... and the idiot owner is 20 yards away, standing there going "stop Fido-come here" and nothings happening, that's threatening behavior.

Clear enough?

Grumpy
03-09-2004, 08:30 AM
One of the great advantages that Iíve discovered in keeping my dog on a leash while hiking is that it gives me complete, absolute and perfect justification for hissing ďBUZZ OFF!Ē back at the self-appointed critics who want to lecture me about the evil of dogs in the boonies . . . and whom I inevitably meet somewhere along the line.

It can be very rewarding, at times, to stand on the right side of an issue.

Smugly yours,

G.

Maddy
03-09-2004, 09:08 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grumpy
[B]One of the great advantages that Iíve discovered in keeping my dog on a leash while hiking is that it gives me complete, absolute and perfect justification for hissing ďBUZZ OFF!Ē back at the self-appointed critics who want to lecture me about the evil of dogs in the boonies..."

Excellent point!
I have hiked for years with my dogs. I am very protective of them and always will be. For this reason I leash them.
In my younger years I used to firmly believe that dogs had a "right" to be running free in the woods. Live and learn, the hard way. Many folks are terrified of dogs and think that every dog they meet is a potential killer. Perhaps they have been bitten in the past. Others are trying to protect their offspring.
I knew that my dogs would not hurt anyone but they did not. My previous dogs were mongrels/ about 45 lbs. They got themselves into a little trouble so I learned my lesson. I also do not trust children I do not know around dogs. Some of them can be downright nasty and hurtful.
I now hike with my 100lb Akita on a leash. She is very highly trained and obeys all her commands but I will not take that chance. We have encountered many very large breed dogs off leash (Rotties and Pit Bulls). I have aborted hikes and moved on to a different less populated location. I don't want any trouble and go out of my way to avoid it.
I also feel very safe hiking with my dog and if I am camping alone I keep her tethered to me on a special leash. I often think of that unfortunate 50 year old female hiker who was stabbed to death on the Glen Boulder trail just a few short years ago. Perhaps if she had a nice big dog with her she would still be hiking. I have met a few unsavory characters hiking over the years. Why take a chance!!!!
Maddy :D

Peakbagr
03-09-2004, 10:47 AM
I wouldn't take my son's Staffordshire Terrier off leash on a trail.
While a gentle sort, she is 70 lbs of muscle and would terrify most hikers if she came bounding up the trail to say hello. The consequences of another canine, regardless of size going after her would be too terrible to contemplate.
She would just love to romp along a trail, unfettered all day. Out of consideration for others and their pets, she stays on a retractor leash, and on trails with few hikers.

shadowcat
03-09-2004, 11:19 AM
as a female hiker i would love to have a nice big dog to accompany me and give me an "edge" of protection & help me at least feel safer being out there alone. i love animals and i can certainly see why people like to take their dogs out with them. lets forget for a minute there are any laws out there at all. for many reasons it just seems to me that having your dog on a leash just makes sense for so many reasons; as mentioned over and over again on this thread. it's not like they need to be off-leash to let them get some exercise, like when you take them to a park. they are hiking and that in itself is good exercise. and some of the hikes are dangerous, rocky etc. i've seen folks with dogs on & off leashes on climbs that were hard for me to get up and over much less the dogs - i could go on and on but it always boils down to the same thing. doing what's right for EVERYONE & quit being a bunch of "i want this & i want that" crybabies. Besides, the heck with dogs - cats are better. Several of mine are leash trained and could use a good hike - and best of all - they bury their own poop! :D

rondak46
03-09-2004, 08:08 PM
... is a quiet discipling. I don't chat much when hiking with someone. I also pay close attention to my breathing. Dogs really break all that up if they are not on a leash.

Iguessyoucouldcallitabuzzkill

Mike

Adi
03-10-2004, 07:23 AM
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest as like many out there, this topic is very important to myself as well.

A few people have talked about being threatened by other dogs, what constitutes a threat. I've got a 38 lb border collie that barks every time she encounters someone new on the trail. She's got a nasty sounding bark but knowing my dog, I know it's her way of saying hello. And believe me, we've tried everything to stop the barking, even the shock collar, and it just doesn't work.

I used to be adament about my dog having the right to come hiking with me and being off-leash. In the last year or so, I've taken the opposite route and realized that for others who are threatened, it's not that much of pain to have her clipped on to my hip belt. I now have her on leash all of the time unless I'm off trail.

My big issue however is that non dog lovers, or the people who are afraid of dogs, in my opinion would educate themselves a little more on dog behaviour. I'm sure more people on the hiking trails have read about bears than dogs, but I'm also sure those people meet a hell of a lot more dogs that they meet bears.

And for the people who won't leash their dogs, you should maybe think long term to try to avoid a situation like Quebec, their parks allow 4wheelers, snowmobiles, but not one of the provincial parks in Quebec (and there something like 25 of them) allow dogs, on or off leash. To me, that sounds threatning!

rondak46
03-10-2004, 07:28 AM
Very good point. A good analogy is the smoking ban in NY. If bar owners had been proactive, and installed air cleaners, and made more prctical accomodations for smokers and non-smokers, there probably would'nt be the strict ban that there is now.

Mike

keb
03-10-2004, 07:54 AM
wow, I am not sure what I am getting into here, but I need to say something. Adi, do you really mean to say......

"My big issue however is that non dog lovers, or the people who are afraid of dogs, in my opinion would educate themselves a little more on dog behaviour."

Please think about that statement. I am a dog lover and I can't even believe that you could say that. No one can be educated enough to know the intentions of a large animal running at them (ok, well maybe a big lab or golden wagging it's tail madly) but otherwise.....and you even reference people "afraid of dogs." That is not necessarily a completely rational fear, but it is fear all the same and cannot be "educated" away. Much like someone who has been mugged (or worse) in the dark is fearful of the dark, someone who has been bitten or scared by a dog, will be fearful of a dog, any dog, unleashed, running at them. It is a fact, and no "education" will change that.

rondak46
03-10-2004, 07:57 AM
.... Is when a dog owner tells you that YOU upset the dog by looking it in the eyes! Sorry, but if your dog is off leash, and approaching me, I'll be staring it down; If it does not like that well...... nuff said.

Mike

Mark
03-10-2004, 08:36 AM
Adi,

You sound like you have learned that your barking dog may be taken as a threat to some on the trail (even if she isnít) and now keep her on a leash. Even if she was just showing off her "happy" bark, having her on leash will come across as less of a threat to others on the trail.

Regarding your big issue, what would you have hikers learn about dog behavior? Do you want hikers to become educated on reading a dogís body language? A dog growling and showing its teeth is not always threatening and a dog wagging tail and bouncing around is not always friendly. The Mastif that bit me showed absolutely no signs of aggression. He didnít take an attack posture. He wasn't growling or even looking at me. He just walked by me as I stood off the side of the trail and turned and bit me as he passed. He was off leash and his owner was no where in the vicinity.

So what I learned about dog behavior is you never know for sure when a dog will attack. This doesnít mean I assume every dog is an imminent threat now, but they are a potential threat. I will remain cautious about every encounter. I donít do anything threatening to the dog and donít even look them in the eyes. I will be ready to defend myself if necessary. If I am hiking with my young children, that level of caution and preparedness jumps tenfold.

Before everyone jumps of me for being a dog hater, Iím not. I donít have any problem with well behaved dogs on the trail. Iíve hiked with dogs in the Whites in the past and had a great time. Iím sure your dog would never do what the Mastif did. However, I now really understand the origin of the saying, ďOnce bitten, twice shy.Ē

Mark
03-10-2004, 08:40 AM
After getting snapped at by a dog, the owner chose to forego an apology and offer instead, "He doesn't like your hiking poles."

(I just want to go for a quiet hike!)

Adi
03-10-2004, 08:57 AM
With regards to all the posts following mine, this is why it's a good thing this thread was not removed.

Keb, I understand a fear is a fear and I think you are right that education will probably not change that.

Rondak, I would never blame someone else for making my dog bark at him/her.

Rondak and Mark, my dog will bark at you if it sees you on trail, and it will most likely be on leash, I hope everyone reading this thread understands that a bark is not necessarily a sign of aggression and Mark I apologize:

"(I just want to go for a quiet hike!)"

It'll get quiet again 10 seconds after we pass on the trail. I definitely understand wanting peace and quiet while trying to enjoy nature.

shadowcat
03-10-2004, 09:16 AM
after reading all these threads i have come to the conclusion -

all dogs should be allowed to run free
it's the hikers who should be on leashes!

(just kidding......)
maybe

ps: and cats are still better than dogs.

Silverback
03-10-2004, 09:19 AM
Wow! This is quite a thread!

I love dogs and they seem to love me, more than most people. I have no fear, but a healthy respect for them, and consider some humans far more dangerous and unpredictable.

That having been said, I believe that leashing one's dog on the trail, or on the street is a simple courtesy, laws, or lack thereof, notwithstanding. As pointed out many times in thread, many people fear these noble animals and, many times, for good reason. But a leash also serves to protect the dogs from the impulsive behavior that they tend to exhibit. How many dogs have been hit by cars, or broke a leg on the trail, or fallen into a bad spot because of their reactive nature to a stimulus?

One thing that has not been mentioned is the fact that an unleashed dog (in fact, even a leashed one), has a disturbing effect on the fauna and flora on the trail, much more than a human does. Chipmunks and squirrels, for example, will, continue to do their dances through the forest around humans, but the presence of a feared predator will send them into hiding. I have encountered deer many times while hiking with humans, but never with my dog. Alpine vegetation, while recognized as fragile and, therefore, avoided, by most experienced hikers is at risk from the trampling of dogs, leashed or unleashed.

My German Shepard is one of the best companions on the trail that I have ever known, but we have quit hiking the backcountry together because of all the reasons I have mentioned. I owe it to my fellow hikers and I owe it to the ecology of the backcountry I so love.

This obviously is a very emotional issue for everyone. These are just my thoughts, no judgment of anyone else intended.

Thanks for the vine.

Oh yeah, and cats are NOT better.

:D

truepatriot09
03-10-2004, 12:05 PM
true, true. cats are no comparison to a dog.

crazymama
03-10-2004, 01:15 PM
I make a special effort to shorten the leash and keep my dog to the opposite side of me whenever I pass close to other people on the trail or on a sidewalk.

I'm sure that there are people out there who appreciate this (dog phobics, people with small children, etc.) and I don't mind doing it.

boombloom
03-10-2004, 09:22 PM
Hi. It's me. I'm the person who got this ball rolling. I know this thread comes up from time to time, but it'd been a while and it was on my mind.

I moved up to the ADK region almost 10 years ago with my dog. It was just the two of us and we covered a lot of ground back then. But he got old and eventually stopped hiking. His last winter peak was Hurricane at age 12. He passed away last summer at age 15, but every time I took down my pack he'd stand by the door ready to go. Great companion. I've got his ashes in a box and one windy day soon I plan to let them go on one of our favorite peaks. I hope no one minds.

I started hiking in the high peaks about 15 years ago and never really gave the leash laws much thought. My dog never gave anyone any trouble, although he did wander off from time to time. Pete Fish used to greet us with a smile on the trail and never said anything about the rules. One day though, a summit steward asked me to use a leash above treeline. Luckily, I had some rope in my pack.

George Carlin said "life is a series of dogs." About a month after my dog died, my wife took me to an animal shelter and told me to get on with it. We brought home a little puppy and by now he's filled the space that my last dog had left. Great dog. Smart and sweet and lots of fun. I started him hiking when he was very young. We went on little local trails you'll likely never see. He stays right with me. Sits when I stop. The joy of canine companionship is back in my life.

So I began to wonder if there were any trails that were "dog friendly." I really do enjoy having him along. I started this thread innocently enough. The response has surprised me--and not just in terms of volume. People are writing passionately about leash laws. What really surprises me most though, is the apparent preponderance of leash supporters. I brought my question to VFT because I know there are lots of dedicated hikers and thoughtful folks here. I wanted to know what you think. What I'm learning is that most folks here really would prefer that dogs be leashed. It's giving me a lot to think about. Thanks everyone, for your input.

Now I'd like to move on to my next question.... For those of you who leash your pets while hiking or skiing, have you got any tips? I'd prefer go hands free if possible. Arguments for or against retractable? Harness vs. collar? How best to tether while camping or resting?

dug
03-11-2004, 06:16 AM
Bloombloom,

You will always seen more pro-leash posters, as many don't bother to get into an argument any longer as the topic just incites fury. It's been so beaten to death over the years that most just pipe-down. I wish I had, as well. I would bet a majority don't necessarily feel you should always leash your dog. I would have no desire to prove that one way or another.

I use a retractable leash that I hook to my pack via a carabiner. It gives them a little room, that can be easily tightened up. You can keep your hands free while they are tied up. After you have passed the area where they need to be leashed, just unhook them and let them go until it's required again.

As for camping, usually the pup is so tired by the time we pull into camp I just feed her, give her a drink, and she will crawl into the tent and go to sleep. I usually don't bother tying her up in camp because she's in the tent. I do keep her collar on, with a short leash hanging, while she's in the tent in case she smells something and tries to get out I can hold on to her. Never really been a problem.

I know the feeling about them always wanting to go. I used to wear the same hat, and every time I put in on my head she'd go nuts. She knew. If I ever did not take her, when I'd get home she would smell my pack, then ignore me for the rest of the night.

As I stated previously, I hike almost exclusively in the Whites, so the laws are more relaxed than you may find in New York.

audrey
03-11-2004, 07:55 AM
Boombloom,

I'm not pro-leash but I just don't argue about it any more. I won't hike where my dog can't go free. It isn't fun to be tethered to each other on a steep rocky slope, and we've had to do it a few times.

I too just lost my dog (Lab) at the age of 15. We plan to scatter her ashes on each of the NE 100 peaks, most of which she climbed with us. There'll be a new puppy arriving in October to fill the void. My husband says he can barely make it till then!

Adi
03-11-2004, 08:02 AM
I tele with my dog, and while on trail, she's on leash.

The only tip I have is to lookout for the surprise yank from your dog while skiing with a large pack. It's only funny for the people watching and laughing at you. :)

ADackR
03-11-2004, 08:06 AM
i agree with dug and audrey,

this debate goes back and forth so much that it just makes sense to let it die. when this first came about i wrote a long winded post in which i stated that i don't leash my dog BUT i also only take my dog to areas where such a law does not exist. i'm afraid of the day when it will be rule throughout the park to have a dog on a leash.

that said, let it go. and just enjoy being out in the wilderness. if it so happens that a dog comes along with out leash, god forbid, just say your opinion and let it go. it's pretty sad to read that one instance on the trail that might take up 30 seconds of ones time can ruin an entire 3-4hr hike in the woods. i think that says something about you, for that one instance can ruin what you came for. NO STRESS.

just let it go, learn to live and forget!!!
happy hiking

rdl
03-11-2004, 09:46 PM
I would have to say my dogs over the years have been my favorite hiking companions -- they don't talk back to you, still adore you at the end of the day, and clean up after you when you're done eating. I would love to let my dog run free on the trail all day long. That being said, I realize that not all hikers are dog lovers and I try to be considerate of other people. Where the law states that leashes are required then by all means everyone should leash their dog. Where the law states that leashes are not required then it's up to your own common sense and consideration -- leash your dog when on a crowded trail or summit or when approaching other people.

:D Sorry to continue a thread that might be at its end ... :D

oldfogie
03-17-2004, 11:06 PM
Let's stop all this yackin' and will someone PLEASE explain what the rule is? All these opinions have not answered the original question.

Must dogs be leashed everywhere at at all times in the Eastern region? Yes or no?

If not, where can I allow my dog to be unleashed?

BTW, does the winter snow season affect the rules?

I will obey the rules, but I still don't know what they are!!!!!

Thanks

Grumpy
03-18-2004, 05:42 AM
Here are snippets of the NY "Part 190.13" Rules that pertain to dogs and leashes:

"Miscellaneous restrictions."

"3. In the High Peaks Wilderness Area, no person shall:"

"x. leave a pet unattended or fail to maintain complete control over the pet;"

"xi. fail to have, in their immediate possession, proof of a valid and current rabies inoculation for any dog which is accompanying them;"

"4. In the Eastern High Peaks Zone, no person shall fail to leash pets on trails, at primitive tent sites, at lean-to sites, at elevations above 4,000 feet, or at other areas where the public congregates, provided that this provision shall not be applicable to hunting dogs which, with a licensed hunter, are actively hunting during appropriate hunting seasons at locations other than primitive tent sites, lean-to sites, at elevations above 4,000 feet, or at other areas where the public congregates."

Definitions that pertain:

"High Peaks Wilderness Area means those lands in the Towns of Keene, North Hudson, Newcomb and North Elba, Essex County; Harrietstown, Franklin County; and Long Lake, Hamilton County described in the most current copy of the "Adirondack Park Land Use and Development Plan Map and State Land Map" on file in the offices of the Adirondack Park Agency. The High Peaks Wilderness Area shall include the Adirondack Canoe Route Zone, the Western High Peaks Zone, and the Eastern High Peaks Zone."

"Eastern High Peaks Zone means that portion of the High Peaks Wilderness Area located to the east of the ridge line immediately west of the Indian Pass Trail."

G.

Pete_Hickey
03-18-2004, 08:47 PM
Note that in the Giant Wilderness area UMP and DIX UMP, it has the same as #4 in Grumpy's, but does NOT have "on trails". It does have the other areas leanto, campsites, above 4K)

Grumpy
03-19-2004, 08:13 AM
The language of the REGULATION is quite clear. It must be read in light of applicable DEFINITIONS regarding the areas covered, which are part of the regulations. Unless I misunderstand process, the various Unit Management Plans (UMPs) are not regulations in and of themselves, but may call for or lead to the writing of regulations (which have the force of law) to implement their provisions.

Bottom line is that I'd trust the regulation, as cited above (taken directly from the DEC web site), for accurate guidance on whether or not my dog must be leashed as we hike in the Adirondack High Peaks. And I would check periodically for revisions in or to it.

G.

ADackR
03-19-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Grumpy
Here are snippets of the NY "Part 190.13" Rules that pertain to dogs and leashes:

"Miscellaneous restrictions."

"3. In the High Peaks Wilderness Area, no person shall:"

"x. leave a pet unattended or fail to maintain complete control over the pet;"

"xi. fail to have, in their immediate possession, proof of a valid and current rabies inoculation for any dog which is accompanying them;"

"4. In the Eastern High Peaks Zone, no person shall fail to leash pets on trails, at primitive tent sites, at lean-to sites, at elevations above 4,000 feet, or at other areas where the public congregates, provided that this provision shall not be applicable to hunting dogs which, with a licensed hunter, are actively hunting during appropriate hunting seasons at locations other than primitive tent sites, lean-to sites, at elevations above 4,000 feet, or at other areas where the public congregates."

Definitions that pertain:

"High Peaks Wilderness Area means those lands in the Towns of Keene, North Hudson, Newcomb and North Elba, Essex County; Harrietstown, Franklin County; and Long Lake, Hamilton County described in the most current copy of the "Adirondack Park Land Use and Development Plan Map and State Land Map" on file in the offices of the Adirondack Park Agency. The High Peaks Wilderness Area shall include the Adirondack Canoe Route Zone, the Western High Peaks Zone, and the Eastern High Peaks Zone."

"Eastern High Peaks Zone means that portion of the High Peaks Wilderness Area located to the east of the ridge line immediately west of the Indian Pass Trail."

G.

In the Eastern High Peaks Zone
basically, don't have you dog off a leash in this area

In the High Peaks Wilderness Area, no person shall:"
basically, you can have your dog off it's leash if you have control of him/her in the western zone....

also, anywhere in the park unless it's private land or the DIX/Hurricane ranges you CAN have your dog of it's leash

so thanks for bringing this up again....although this was a good question for people that are unsure

rtrimarc
03-19-2004, 01:40 PM
My Dad is a Chief Research Scientist with the NYS Health Department, and former Director of the NYS Rabies Lab. He could tell hundreds of stories where a family pet has been put to sleep to be tested for rabies with the family crying saying "he has never bitten ANYONE before". The heartache the family could have been saved if the pet had only been leashed. Oh, and the poor person who was the first to be bitten may have been saved some pain too.

Leashing is not only the law, it is a good idea.

oldfogie
03-19-2004, 02:13 PM
Hope I got this right, but simply put, dogs must ALWAYS be leashed except:

1) When bushwhacking under 4K'
2) When climbing the trail-less peaks up to 4K' elevation
3) when n bed sleeping with us

So, let your dog go free when climbing Emmons, but before you reach that last 40' in elevation change, ya better leash Rover 'cause the man he gonna getcha.

baileys dad
03-19-2004, 03:21 PM
I've been following this thread becouse my new "puppy" is 1 year and very "friendly" (she like to jump up on people). That is why I take her less traveled or during the week so not to get crowds on weekend. Today I was on goodnow at 10 am. no cars in parking lot so I was fine on way up. On way down I left her off leash. I figured I was safe today, and if I saw someone I would call her and hold her. Well I must have not been paying attention becouse she saw someone before I did And took off. She would not come when I called and knocked over a 65 year old lady. I was embarassed and I apolagized until I turned blue. NOt to mention I was wrong for not having this particular dog on a leash. Her reation knocked me over. Most people are very nice on the trail, but she let me have it and said there is a leash law! All I have seen in this thread is dogs must be on a leash in the eastern high peaks and above 4000 feet. It is hard to have a dog tied to you in the winter using poles. during the summer I had her on a leash. I know I was wrong, but was I breaking the law?

Doc McPeak
03-20-2004, 09:34 AM
bailey's dad, the problem is the jumping dog. If he wasn't a jumper and just cruised right past the 65 year old (or anyone for that matter) you probably would have gotten a smile instead of a well deserved chewing out.

Training a dog is not easy, and they like to jump. You have to have the resolve to break them of this habit, and most people feel guilty at laying down the law with their dog, or just don't make it a priority. Having a German Shepherd I knew this was a priority and treated it as such. When he jumped he got the "deep thundering voice of Zeus" and he learned very quickly that I didn't approve. Dogs live to please their master, and by a stern "no, bad dog", and a very excited "good boy" system, he knew what pleased me and what didn't. By the age of 8 or 9 months he was jump-free and was as friendly a German Shepherd as I've seen. Dogs need to know who is master, in fact they live for it. A strong VERBAL system is what works. The only physical contact should be in the positive.

I love dogs but nothing infuriates me more than a jumper, followed by an apologizing owner who meekly says bad dog and let's go. That is the time to really express that what he has done is unacceptable and is the only way to break a dog of this habit.

Work on that jumping, your dog will thank you for it. As well as every one else ... and you'll be able to enjoy your hikes more.

Peakbagr
03-20-2004, 10:25 AM
Bailey's Dad,

You sound like a really concerned, well-intentioned person. A nice guy...But your dog knocks over a 65 year old hiker and you're surprised that they read you the riot act???

She was wrong to point out the leash law as it doesn't apply there but well within her rights to be upset over trail etiquette and safety.
Most of the issue of hiking with dogs is the courtesy to other human beings. Thats why many of us support rules calling for canines on leashes (and I own a dog) where dogs are liable to come into contact with other dogs or hikers.

I have seen or experienced years of dogs flying by on trails, often brushing into or knocking into me. A few of those times I've been in some interesting positions on boulders or steep trail sections.

I'd say cut the hiker a little slack and be happy the only outcome was harsh words, and not an injury.

PB