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Sixer
03-20-2004, 10:59 AM
Finally, DEC agrees, just no one knows where it came from

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?category=&storyID=230533&BCCode=&newsdate=3/20/2004

Doc McPeak
03-20-2004, 12:14 PM
Cool.

And in a related story, DEC officials released a new rule that all wolves must be on leash while roaming in the High Peaks Wilderness Areas. ;)

Willie
03-20-2004, 02:09 PM
... and store their kill in bear canisters! :D

Louis
03-20-2004, 02:17 PM
and put snowshoes with 8 inches of more of snow

daxs
03-20-2004, 04:54 PM
And don't forget, they are not allowed on AMR property.

sardog1
03-20-2004, 08:08 PM
And prohibited from reading Wolf Restoration to the Adirondacks (http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/2001/wolfrest/wolfrest.htm) .

Tom
03-20-2004, 10:06 PM
From the article:

"Unfortunately, it may require another hunter accidently shooting another wolf to figure out if there are more."

So they think it might be a solo wolf who wandered down from Canada, but it might be a pair, and they won't know until someone shoots another one. Maybe it's a a pack. We won't know how many there are (were) until we shoot every last one of them, evidently.

Tom

mommabear
03-21-2004, 01:27 AM
I'm glad to hear the story. I'm confused about something though - aren't there any controls on shooting coyote like we have for deer and bear? It seems like this guy shoots whatever he wants.

Also, speaking of grey - I had asked this in a previous thread but I guess I wasn't clear - I have seen a grey fox in the Albany area, but didn't even know they were in New York State. Does anybody know about the grey fox in the ADK or Catskill area? I have never heard of any.

Jack Waldron
03-21-2004, 09:45 AM
In NH coyote hunting is open year round, there is no daily limit. All you need is a valid hunting license.

rtrimarc
03-22-2004, 12:37 PM
I finally figured out how to make a campsite bear-proof. Now they have to be wolf-proof too?! At least they don't climb trees.

I agree, very exciting news, no matter if it is a loner, or part of a pack. NY has a lot of wilderness. If there is one, there may very well be more. If there can be aligators in NYC sewers, why not wolves and big cats in ADK Park?

maineguy
03-22-2004, 01:57 PM
I hope the DEC will limit the size of the packs and require permits.

shadowcat
03-22-2004, 09:08 PM
Lawrence, the 47-year-old hunter who started the fuss, continues to hunt coyotes, for the $20 or so he gets for the pelts

I would love to see a gray wolf or any wonderful wildlife while hiking. I suppose I'll get a lot of crap for saying this but it makes me sick to think that guy kills & the value placed on the coyotes life is only $20! That makes me sad - actually it's quite pitiful. If I had the money, I'd give him $25 for each one he didn't kill. Figures something so awesome as a gray wolf shows up and he had to kill it. Am I the only one who feels like this? Most of the replies made a joke of the whole thing. Ok, so I'm waiting for all the backlash. :(

rdl
03-22-2004, 09:19 PM
shadowcat -- you won't get any flack from me.

What is the market for Coyote pelts anyway ?

Barry Sr
03-23-2004, 05:50 AM
I know I'm gonna take some heat here, If you have never seen a coyote fur coat on a radiant blonde... they make great coats.
I also see alot used for Native American ceremonial wardrobe and headresses.

Before the flames rise, I hunt and fish and respect all that I take. I would not waste and pride myself on mostly doing it the old woodlands indian way. I instruct the young in these ways at Boy Scouts and hope I pass on some of this respect for the lesser animals and the land from which they come and we share.

Sixer
03-23-2004, 07:55 AM
I am not trying to defend the shooting of the wolf, but, the DEC has said over and over that there are no gray wolves in NY. Coyotes are legal for hunting. This guy probably thought he was taking one heck of a coyote, and until the US F&W intervened, thats what the state told him as well. If you are anti-hunting thats fine. But in this case, more of an open mind from DEC with some warnings to hunters to be careful of there target because there MIGHT be gray wolves in the state, just might have caused this hunter to hold up on the trigger. Just my 1½ cents.

shadowcat
03-23-2004, 08:40 AM
Barry SR:
I'm sorry I really tried to just let it pass but your crass comment about how good a dead animal looked on a blonde just can not go without comment. actually, maybe it can because the comment speaks volumes just in of itself for those of us who think differently. As far as you justifying what you do "the old ways" that's b.s. and that kind of rheteric doesn't cut it anymore - not many are still buying it. We don't, unfortunately live in the world of our forefathers. Their ways often can no longer be the ways of our world. We don't HAVE to hunt and kill to feed and cloth our familys. And, in addition our GREED has created a world where we probably couldn't even do this if we had to. All our needs are met thru mass production of meat and by-products. I have never in my life believed animals were ours to do what we wanted. Their life is just a valuable as mine and they deserve to live a life in the way of their forefathers, not on some blondes back! Get over yourself and quit making excuses for what you do and using the boy scouts and all that other crap as a conduit to justify it. You do it because you enjoy it. And I for one will never understand, befriend or trust someone who kills for pure pleasure. Would it be so impossible for you to change? There are traditions that no longer have a place in our world: slavery, bigotry, feeding Christians to the lions - and, killing for pleasure. I wish I could get you to see things differently, have you ever considered "hunting" with a camera instead of a gun or a trap. Maybe someday you'll understand and change. Maybe.....

"Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow creatures is amusing in itself. "
--Froude (1818-1894)

mavs00
03-23-2004, 08:57 AM
Lets not troll for disagreements

My impression of the initial post was a "Hey everybody look, we have a confirmed Timber Wolf in the ADK's" I'm not sure it was intended or should become a debate on the current price of coyote hides or whether or not the killing should or should not have taken place. I think the lighthearted comments earlier recognized the post for what it was, and is not an indication of the "cold-hearted, ambivilance to all wild things" nature of the posters (myslef included) .

I'm not a hunter, nor do I participate or condone the recreational killing of any animal, However, I recognize the right of others to do so, within the confines set up by the DEC.

In any event, as I said, I just think it's cool they can confirm what alot of people already suspected.

That's just my opinion and no disrespect is intended towards anyone.

lumberzac
03-23-2004, 09:42 AM
This is great news. It is unfortunate that one of these animals had to die, but through its death it has given proof of wolves in the Adirondacks. This may force the DEC to recognize that there are wolves that need to be protected. The death of one may very well save the lives of many.

funkyfreddy
03-23-2004, 10:03 AM
you might want to read this. Apparently Alaska's enlightened governor has legalized hunting wolves from aircraft.

http://www.api4animals.org/1612.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/05/03/wolf.hunt.enn/

An interesting history of humanity's treatment of wolves is the book by Barry Lopez "Of Wolves and Men". I'm about 2 thirds of the way through it and find it very disturbing.

Bob
03-23-2004, 10:41 AM
this thread has certainly deteriorated rapidly.

adkleaddog
03-23-2004, 11:24 AM
this thread has certainly deteriorated rapidly.

how 'bout "Exponentially"

:rolleyes:

Rob S
03-23-2004, 11:36 AM
For anyone who is interested ........

http://www.lakotawolf.com/

This place is about 20 minutes from my house. I haven't been there yet, but have been meaning to go. This thread, albeit going downhill, has renewed my interest.

The Lakota Wolf Preserve allows you to watch and photograph wolves in an environment that is much more natural than a typical zoo.

If anyone fellow VFTTers would like to go sometime, just drop me an email or PM. The Delaware Water Gap and the Appalachian Trail are less than 10 minutes away, so we could plan a hike as well.

Rob

(Mavs, once again you have spoken eloquently ........... and I agree 100%.)

Barry Sr
03-23-2004, 11:59 AM
Shadow,

I disagree with your concept of of my life.
We could have a better understanding of each other in person and if that ever occurs, I will be glad to share back and forth all day. Many things can be taken out context on line.

I respect you for speaking your mind.

Respectfully,

Barry

shadowcat
03-23-2004, 01:39 PM
Thank you for your reply. I will be the 1st to admit I can be very passionate about my feelings on matters such as this. I don't mean to offend you but it does make me sad that you or anyone can kill our wildlife. I don't get it and I never will. You seem like a nice person but I will stick with my suggestion of your switching to a camera instead of a gun. :)
and, this thread is not deteriorating it's expanding. that's what they do - go off in all directions. if they didn't they wouldn't be so interesting or informative.

Bob
03-23-2004, 01:50 PM
All our needs are met thru mass production of meat and by-products.

Sooo- no animals die to produce meat. They are magically produced in some factory...

shadowcat
03-23-2004, 01:55 PM
bob bob bob
don't be a dufus you "should" know what i meant. geez
i've done quite a bit of work researching how animals are raised for food these days. if you have read any of the books i did on this subject you would understand my comment. be sure i know animals don't magically appear on your plates at dinner time.

rondak46
03-23-2004, 02:21 PM
... is fishing Ok in your book, Shadowcat?

Miike

shadowcat
03-23-2004, 02:54 PM
i guess my response to that would be that the fascination of hunting (fishing) as a sport depends almost wholly on whether you are at the right or wrong end of a gun (rod).
i will also say i am far from perfect but i try really hard to live my beliefs which may or may not be agreed upon by others.& in times have left me to fend for myself.

"And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor political, nor popular, but he must take it because his conscience tells him that it is right. "
--Martin Luther King Jr.

Jaytrek57
03-23-2004, 03:16 PM
Shadow...interesting quote by Froude.


"Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow creatures is amusing in itself. "
This link may/may not have you rethink that position.
http://www.primatefreedom.com/chimpanzees/

Also there is documented evidence that killer whales "play" with their kills. By "play" I mean slowly tear apart a seal, toss it in the air and then discard the body (just leave it). There are tons of other examples in the animal world.

I am not a hunter...more of an amateur animal behaviorists...hey..everyone needs a hobby. :rolleyes:

Wolves are so cool and have long been a favorite of mine...I hope they are coming down from Canada and then perhaps further conservation/preservation efforts can be made if this is the case.

Barry Sr
03-23-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Bob


Sooo- no animals die to produce meat. They are magically produced in some factory...

Be nice, The shadowcat has a right to her opinion.
We don't agree but I'll defend her right to feel that way.

maineguy
03-23-2004, 03:22 PM
"... First thing I slayed...I was nine years old. It was a squirrel, these ladies were feeding it, you know, and I said, 'excuse me, bam.' No it wasn't a pet squirrel. I had it stuffed and petted it for years after that." - WRIF-FM, Detroit, Ted Nugent as guest D.J., September 26, 1991

Ted

Barry Sr
03-23-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by maineguy
"... First thing I slayed...I was nine years old. It was a squirrel, these ladies were feeding it, you know, and I said, 'excuse me, bam.' No it wasn't a pet squirrel. I had it stuffed and petted it for years after that." - WRIF-FM, Detroit, Ted Nugent as guest D.J., September 26, 1991

Ted

:D evil :D

Bob
03-24-2004, 08:02 AM
don't be a dufus you "should" know what i meant
1- I am not a mind reader
2- I'll stop being a dufus as long as you stop making asinine statements about 'mass produced' meat.

Do you use words like dufus in your 'books'.
Are these fairy tales that you write?




Be nice, The shadowcat has a right to her opinion
Yeah, but not to name calling. Typical response from someone of her 'stature'.

rtrimarc
03-24-2004, 09:33 AM
I am not putting in my 2 cents. I think all these issues have two sides, and there is no right or wrong answer. Obviously cruelty to animals is not encouraged by anyone(most), but the rights and wrongs of hunting will be debated forever. And who is, and who is not a dufus will also be an issue for the ages.

I was passed this link today, and it obviously comes from a group with certain ideals, which i may or may not agree with. This is passed along for entertainment and informative use only, but it is good...

http://www.themeatrix.com/

RVT

rondak46
03-24-2004, 10:05 AM
.. Man has been hunting animals forever, and always will. It is as it should be and there is nothing wrong with that.. whether you believe God crated us or if you believe evolution made us the way we are; the fact of the matter is that we are all food for each other. That is a matter of fact. WIld game is, to some, the, most delicious meat, or the finest furs (do you have leather shoes or a handbag). Should these people give up these things that they like because you think that animals should only be killed an a slaughterhouse?

Shadowcat says "We don't HAVE to hunt and kill to feed and cloth our familys". so am I supposed to feel fortunate that I can buy clothes made from Saudi Oil, that goes to china, so a child can make my clothes instead of going to school? And, Because this is an option, am I now an outlaw for filling my own freezer?

Some people think that they are better people because they do not see these animals killed. That is absurd. People who have a warm squishy feeling for mammals tend not to grant the good feeling to fish in the streams or spiders that they crush. Its really absurd but is incredibly prevalent.

Cows are fed food they are not supposed ot eat (grains as opposed to grasses) so you can have nice cuts of meat. Because of this they live in pain, with heartburn and other problems. they live a difficult life, being readied for the slaughterhouse.

Hunters try to make ethical kills, with one bullet to the vitals. They fade and die very quickly.

Funny thing is that anti-hunters think that they love and understand these animals more than hunters can. This is not true. Since I began hunting I have a much deeper understanding, respect and love for these animals, even as I put them in my crosshairs. Non-hunters can never really gain a respect for a deer, for example, without seeing its attitude, getting skunked, or just watching it in its natural envioronment. I also understanding that without hunters, these cute fuzzy animals would be diseased, starved and damaging many cars on highways.

Coyotes have few, if any natural predators, because humans have destroyed them. Coyotes, if left unchecked can and will decimate small game populations like turkey, grouse a and members of the weasle family (such beautiful creatures as ermine Marten, and mink) not to mention your cute litte cat. Coyotes have to be controlled by hunters. It really is a great arrangement and "animal lovers" are truly a danger to many species.

And Shadowcat, Do you own a cat? Do you let it out doors? If so, does he bring you little treats, like a chipmunk without a head, and a family of baby rabbits? Your cute cat is a ruthless killer who kills for entertainment and your approval, and you just let it roam at will. But maybe rodents don't deserve the protection that coyotes do. And don't try to tell me that cats killing rodents is natural; your cat is domesticated and could not survive in the long tem outside of your home.

In NY you can hunt Coyote day or night, using light and bait FOR A GOOD REASON.

IcantwaittillIhaveafewpeltsforacoat

Mike

ripple
03-24-2004, 10:28 AM
Welll said rondak46!!!!! Well said.

As a side note to the domestic cat killing rodents, they also kill 2 billion songbirds worldwild every year, which is contributing in a major way to the song bird decline.

adkleaddog
03-24-2004, 10:33 AM
Ripple beat me to it....


Well put.

Now I have to stop the bleeding from biting my tongue! :p

shadowcat
03-24-2004, 11:13 AM
Bob: I will apologize for calling you a dufus. I didn’t think it would get you that upset. And, as I added to my thread if you had read the books I have on how meat gets to your plate you’d understand why I called it mass-production. I am not some psycho animal rights activist & I’m certainly not of any grand “stature” – I’m just a person like everyone else trying to get by and making the most of the life I have. Until I started reading about the entire realm of the meat/poultry industry I was totally unaware of how disgusting it is. My comment on “mass produced meat” stands. If you don’t believe me, the next time you are at a library just pick up a book about it. Start with “Slaughterhouse” by Gail Eisnite.

Rondak46: Yes, I do have cats. 9 of them. All of which I rescued from outdoors. NONE of them roam outside – ever. I am totally aware of the situation you spoke of and would never do anything to make it worse. Also, although I don’t think I could ever kill anything and even though I hate sport hunting I do understand those who do it solely as a means to feed their family. But lets be honest there really aren’t that many out there that fit that profile, most is sport hunting and I can not support killing for pleasure. That’s just my opinion and I come from Upper Michigan and most of my brothers and father, grandfather – heck even mother used to hunt!

Barry Sr: You got me started with your comment about blondes and furs. That was just the wrong thing for me to see. But even though I went off on you, you have been the only one who hasn’t attacked me for my opinions and I appreciate you defending me on more than one occasion. You seem too nice a guy to hunt!

Overall, I have to say I am really surprised at the amount of people who take the opposite view then I do. I guess I just thought because we all share a love of the outdoors that more would be against hunting but boy was I wrong! It’s a good thing I have a strong backbone! But I started it and I’m the first one to say you never know where these things will lead and that’s what makes them interesting and informative.

Capoken
03-24-2004, 11:17 AM
Shadowcat. Can I assume you are a vegan, since you must also oppose wearing leather?

shadowcat
03-24-2004, 11:38 AM
i did become a vegetarian several yrs ago -- for many reasons. i think the final thing that made me stop eating meat was just all the crap going on in the industry and how unhealthy it had become. i also stopped eating it due to health reasons because of long-term illness and my body now has trouble digesting heavy foods like meat. as far as wearing leather goes, as i stated i try very hard to stand by my beliefs and choices. however i do have items of leather. i have shoes that go back 10 years and they are leather. i have hiking boots a few yrs old that are leather. however, i try to choose items that support what i believe. i have an awesome pair of "pleather" pants and no one knows they aren't real. i admitted i am not perfect but i try not to be a hypocrit either. i don't wear fur. i had a beautiful fox coat that was given to me years ago. i never felt comfortable wearing it and stopped. it hung in my closet for years until i gave it away to an animal rehab center that cut it up and used with baby wildlife rescues. now would you all like to tell me everything about yourselves?

rondak46
03-24-2004, 11:49 AM
A point about veganism...

Amino Acids are a necessary part of the human diet. Vegans often have hollow sunken looks to them; it is because they don't eat meat. I think Veganism is more of an emotional problem than a valid ethical issue.

To be sure Shadowcat, there is something I like about you, and I dont't mean to flame anyone. I am just trying to raise what I believe are valid points.

Hunting has given me just one more way to love and appreciate the great outdoors.

One thing non-hunters cannot understand is how serious a discipline hunting is. Non-hunters, just think pointing and shooting at a helpless animalis the beginning and end to it. It really is not. Pick up a camera and try to get some wildlife shots to see how much work it takes. You will not really get a feel of how much work and skill it takes to go hunting, but it is a start.

I would only shoot animals that I want to eat, or have a nice pelt AND are otherwise a nuisancs. I would never shoot any kind of cat. Soemday I hope I am lucky enoug to see a cat in the wild.

Mike

ripple
03-24-2004, 11:58 AM
Pleather pants portray real leather. So a person sees your nice pleather pants and says I should get a pair of leather pants b/c like you said no knows they are not real. So by wearing your pleather pants you aren't helping your cause, you are actually promoting leather. Hunters love the outdoors just as mush as any hiker.

shadowcat
03-24-2004, 12:03 PM
i don't think that's likely to happen. usually if i am wearing something somebody else likes they will tell me. in return i tell them, for instance in the case of "pleather" pants that they aren't real. i just wore them to work yesterday and got compliments on them. when i told my co-workers they were not real leather they thought it was great. there was no confusion. plus they are less expensive. i think you are wrong on that note and i think it's pretty obvious i don't try to mislead anyone.

ripple
03-24-2004, 12:09 PM
Not saying you are misleading but how many people see you in the pants that you don't tell they are fake. Do you tell everybody that walks down the street "hey these pants are pleather"? I don't buy the pleather excuse, sorry but pleather promotes leather. I have seen people walking down the street and have thought "that is a nice jacket I should get one" You don't think people think that about your pleather pants.

shadowcat
03-24-2004, 12:17 PM
ok so tell me what i'm supposed to do then. i want a pr of say black boots. am i supposed to buy leather boots and be a hypocrit or buy pleather boots and worry everyone will think i'm wearing leather boots and think i'm a hypocrit - or am i supposed to go barefoot? do you drink or smoke? when people see you on the street how will they know? do you carry a sign? but how's this? the next time i think about wearing my "pleather" pants i'll remember what you said and go with out em. pantless.... heck i'll just go butt naked and won't confuse anyone.
like i said all i can do is make choices that support what i believe in, i don't expect to change the world - not today anyway.

ripple
03-24-2004, 01:33 PM
Hey I don't want fight w/ you, but I feel if you wanted to help your cause, you wouldn't promote the killing of animals in anyway. Don't wear pleather, there are other options, wear jeans, nylon etc etc. If you are going to talk the talk then you should walk the walk. I could tell by your posts that you would look down at me b/c I enjoy the sport of hunting, I am true to it and make no excuses. I love being out there. If you want to continue this type of conversation we could go over to a PETA forum, b/c I know this doesn't belong here. I am done w/ this.

Bob
03-24-2004, 01:40 PM
I will apologize for calling you a dufus
accepted...
Please note that I am NOT a hunter, but realize every action has consequences, both intended and unintended.
I also welcome hunters on property I own...

shadowcat
03-24-2004, 02:20 PM
ripple's right this has gone on long enough and way off base for this site. i guess you never know where or how far a discussion is going to go - but now we are into animal rights issues so it no longer belongs here.
ripple tho before i leave please understand i don't look down on you or anyone - i wish you didn't hunt and i'll always argue my side. but look down on you - no that's not who i am.

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear. (this applies to me also)
--George Orwell (author)

until we meet again......

rondak46
03-24-2004, 03:49 PM
.... and I was totally serious.


Mike

Ken999
03-25-2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by shadowcat

You seem too nice a guy to hunt!



What a slap in the face to hunters...I suppose that nice guys don't eat meat either, right??

Barry Sr
03-25-2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Ken999


What a slap in the face to hunters...I suppose that nice guys don't eat meat either, right??

I am a nice guy even with the blonde comment.
Just remember though, even Ted Bundy was VERY likeable.

:D :D :D

eagle
03-25-2004, 10:35 PM
This thread has been quite entertaining. Thank you all. I wanted to reply because I am now convinced (though I know it's very doubtful) that I saw a grey wolf two weeks ago near Keene. I remember coyotes as smaller, mangy looking savages , but this guy was big and had bushy fur on his neck and head.
Also, I must comment on the madness.
Ripple- Good point about the pleather. And, I was just waiting for the letters peta to show up. Let's not encourage anyone.
My father was a fur farmer. He received numerous threats (bomb) from these jokers.
Shadowcat-RE:now would you all like to tell me everything about yourselves?
I don't think anyone responded, so...
I eat what I think I could feasibly kill in the wild. This includes cats (just kidding) chicken, turkey, fish. I will also eat venison if someone I know gets a deer. I don't need testosterone in my diet! (I'll eat the no hormone stuff) I agree with ripple on the pleather, and I think that there are a lot of seemingly good ideas out there... like banning hunting and, my personal favorite, freeing animals which have been caged and fed for generations... that really don't jive with the reality of our society and what's best for the state of our natural world. I do understand your choices. And they should be respected, along with everyone else's.

Sixer
03-26-2004, 06:54 AM
Reading all these posts, with many claiming to having seen something, it occurs to me that we should all carry a camera with us, just an el-cheapo, but something to record some evidence of what we see. A camera and a dollar bill placed next to a track will go a long way in providing some proof of what is really out there. Just my 2½ cents.:D

BTW, check this link.

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1080206005216910.xml

probably just a released caprtive, but you never know.....

eagle
03-26-2004, 02:45 PM
Good advice, however, I wasn't prepared to cross the Ausable River to get a shot of it's tracks! (I did have my camera, but the animal ran before I could get a picture. It was probably a coyote. Also, it was more near your territory sixer... between Upper Jay and Jay on 9N.

Sixer
03-26-2004, 09:15 PM
Eagle,
There is a lot of land for something to disappear in that area, and a lot of deer to feed on. I'll check around, perhaps someone else has seen something.

mushroomman
03-26-2004, 10:45 PM
Shadowcat
Im really curious about how a person raised in a hunting family,
can turn against all that they were taught, as far as resourse use.
What was it that made you not want to be involved with hunting, and natural resourse use, inspite of your upbringing???
Steveo

eagle
03-27-2004, 10:14 AM
I received and email message from someone regarding the grey wolf issue, but accidentally marked it as spam and deleted it. Please resend it. Thanks

14000feet
03-27-2004, 11:46 AM
Shadowcat has held her own very well but I'd just like to add a word of support to the points she and mommabear have raised.

Personally I have no issue with hunting as long as the species isn't endangered and the kill is made use of for food or leather. As Shadowcat pointed out about the commercial beef/poultry industries, if you're not a vegetarian you are probably much better off eating venison anyway. My concern about hunting is with the large numbers of sport hunters and weekend warriors who enjoy the kill much more than they do the carcass. How long did it take those kinds of hunters to wipe out the massive bison herds? 5 years?

I am realistic though. When we upset the natural balance unfortunately we sometimes have to intervene to try to maintain the new balance. You would think that the Adirondacks are large enough and wild enough to survive without our intervention. But I'm afraid that may not be so.

One question about the value of coyote pelts. Is the $20 the market price or is it a bounty? If the coyote has no natural predetors now, who were they in the past? It's seems peculiar that we love dogs so much but hate wolves and coyotes with such a passion.
Billy

Barry Sr
03-27-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by 14000feet

My concern about hunting is with the large numbers of sport hunters and weekend warriors who enjoy the kill much more than they do the carcass. How long did it take those kinds of hunters to wipe out the massive bison herds? 5 years?
Where do you get your documentation regarding Large numbers of weekend warriors? After taking the time that is needed in most states these days to be able to own and use hunting gear, you usually don't go firing off just to hear the noise. Most hunters are not what you describe.

One question about the value of coyote pelts. Is the $20 the market price or is it a bounty? If the coyote has no natural predetors now, who were they in the past? It's seems peculiar that we love dogs so much but hate wolves and coyotes with such a passion.
Billy
Pelts go for $100.00-500.00 on the web depending on the condition.
I agree, coyotes are beautiful and I do not hunt them. But... in MA coyotes are on endangered list and have been for years. However, they have come back so strong plus urban sprawl has caused the two to butt heads and the coyote is winning right now because of the protective law. Right now it's a few dogs and cats that are missing but the first lil' tike eaten and they will be hunted again.

14000feet
03-27-2004, 04:04 PM
Barry Sr wrote: 'Where do you get your documentation regarding Large numbers of weekend warriors? After taking the time that is needed in most states these days to be able to own and use hunting gear, you usually don't go firing off just to hear the noise. Most hunters are not what you describe.'


Unfortunately, fools aren't always deterred by regulation. Look how many of them have drivers licenses :) But your point is well taken. I have no documentation, only personal experience. As with many things though, you don't notice the ones doing it right, only the ones doing it wrong. So my comment could be exaggerating the numbers but not their fool hardyness. For one example, I'll never again poo in an outhouse with antlers on the door.

mushroomman
03-27-2004, 05:54 PM
BarrySr
Just looked at the game laws for coyotes in Ma. there is a season on them and they are NOT endangered nor listed as endangered. We (hunters) have been taken them for years.
The listed season on them is Nov 1 to Feb 28.
Regards Steveo

mink319
03-27-2004, 06:06 PM
Its about time the DEC finally admitted that there are wolves in New York state. Next they just have to admit that there are cougars. Wolves probably worked their way in from Algonquin Provincial Park in Canada into the ADK's, and from there made it to the Catskills and Vermont. Its possible that while the wolves are exploring and looking for a place to go they could end up in a civilized area such as Albany, Glens Falls, Utica, Cooperstown, and other places like that.

rondak46
03-27-2004, 06:38 PM
... of the existence of large cats or wolves may not be in the interest of those animals. That may be why they do not affirm it, if they can avoid it. Some hunters will make it a point to kill these animals. I don't like it and don't think it is legal, but it is the reality and they can often use justifications susch as livestock and personal protection.

Mike

Barry Sr
03-28-2004, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by mushroomman
BarrySr
Just looked at the game laws for coyotes in Ma. there is a season on them and they are NOT endangered nor listed as endangered. We (hunters) have been taken them for years.
The listed season on them is Nov 1 to Feb 28.
Regards Steveo

There has bee misinformation dispersed here on the TV news, (how shocking) I stand corrected. Still won't hunt them.