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Jim lombard
02-11-2008, 12:03 PM
I've done Washington in all seasons from the traditional route and am hoping to do a winter ascent via the auto-road at night.

If I needed it for my list, would it count?

Jim lombard
02-11-2008, 12:15 PM
Thanks Marc,
I read this from a 1937 National Geographic copy about the White Mts.

The hiker's line of least resistance is the Carriage Road which loops up the mountain in eighty odd curves. This automobile route to the summit is about twice as long as the hiking trails on the eastern slopes, but many climbers prefer the road, as the grades are less precipitous and there is no danger of losing the way in case of a sudden storm

Its one of three routes I have left to have hiked it from every trail/road or rr tracks.

DougPaul
02-11-2008, 02:19 PM
I read this from a 1937 National Geographic copy about the White Mts.

The hiker's line of least resistance is the Carriage Road which loops up the mountain in eighty odd curves. This automobile route to the summit is about twice as long as the hiking trails on the eastern slopes, but many climbers prefer the road, as the grades are less precipitous and there is no danger of losing the way in case of a sudden storm.
Actually it is possible to lose the way in poor visibility if the road is drifted in. IIRC, the potential trouble areas are the flats near Nelson and Ball Crags.

This area is also exposed to the prevailing winds.

Doug

Kevin Rooney
02-11-2008, 04:19 PM
Sorry, Jim, but it won't count. See the FAQ page (http://www.amc4000footer.org/faq.htm) for more details.

Washington, Mansfield and Equinox are specifically mentioned on that page.

Mohamed Ellozy
02-11-2008, 04:55 PM
Kevin,

My understanding is that you are not allowed to use them to drive to the summit. Makes sense, since that paragraph deals with driving to the trailhead. In other words, you are not allowed to drive up the Auto Road to the parking lot, call it a trailhead, and hike from there to the summit.

I am almost certain that I am correct, but hope that Eric will give us the official answer.

Jim,

I remember reading (maybe in an old WMG) that the auto road can be treacherous (ice and wind) in winter, and that it is not an easy way up the mountain.

bikehikeskifish
02-11-2008, 05:38 PM
The FAQ (rules) says:

For peaks with trails starting at maintained roads the rule is simple: Drive to the trailhead then walk (note that you are not allowed to use the auto roads on Mts Washington, Mansfield and Equinox).

The confusion might come from the fact that the (note... not allowed to use auto roads) comes after the word walk.

I would think, if one can bushwhack up, or take a trail, or the ski trails at Wildcat/Tecumseh, then one could use the auto road.


Tim

giggy
02-11-2008, 05:46 PM
If you have fun and enjoy yourself - it counts.

blacknblue
02-11-2008, 05:51 PM
If you have fun and enjoy yourself - it counts.

That's my line of thinking. I don't really care who thinks it is 'official' or not since I'm never planning on getting a badge for going hiking. If I did Big George via the Auto Road in February, I would consider myself having bagged the peak in winter and would have a pretty satisfied conscience that I earned the right to think so.

grouseking
02-11-2008, 05:54 PM
If you have fun and enjoy yourself - it counts.


Agreed. What a silly argument.

Plus, hiking the auto road would make the hike much longer....possibly making it harder. Just "bushwhack" off the road. Then maybe it will count. ;)

grouseking

Silverfox
02-11-2008, 06:00 PM
It would certainly seem be an issue of semantics.
I would feel pretty good with myself bagging George on foot from the Route 16 Auto Road parking lot in February...Enjoy!!

kltilton
02-11-2008, 06:09 PM
I did Washington via the Auto Road last February. I had a perfect day weather wise. I would make sure though that if you're going do do this route to make sure that you have VERY good weather. You'll spend over 3.5 miles above tree line if you follow the road.

Here's the link to my photos from my trip last year:

http://sports.webshots.com/album/557912429gKNQse

bikehikeskifish
02-11-2008, 06:10 PM
Assuming "counts" means for the AMC4000 club, the AMC 4000 footer club is a game with rules and you are supposed to play by the rules if you want to play the game. This is an interpretation of the rules, just like where the real summit of Owl's Head is.

It doesn't matter if it feels good or not. If they are picky enough to demand that you not start before the minute of the winter solstice and you must be off the trail before the minute of the spring equinox, then they should be able to rule on this.

More fuel then... why do the ski trails count... or do they?

Tim

bobandgeri
02-11-2008, 06:35 PM
They also have a rule on hiking Peak Above the Nubble. If you can find the now several years old illegally cut trail, and use it you can't count the peak for the NEHH list.

cbcbd
02-11-2008, 06:41 PM
I hear if you hike with one foot on the road and one off the road it counts... but only during even numbered days.

RoySwkr
02-11-2008, 06:52 PM
This automobile route to the summit is about twice as long as the hiking trails on the eastern slopes, but many climbers prefer the road, as the grades are less precipitous and there is no danger of losing the way in case of a sudden storm
I agree with ME and disagree with KR - I believe that it counts if you walk up/down and Gene Daniell would agree but it's not him that makes the rules any more

<FLAME>It's too bad the 4k club apparently considers its sole mission to be selling patches and holding awards ceremonies, and can't find time to clarify its rules</FLAME>

I also agree with DP that it is quite possible to get lost in bad conditions on the auto road, one of the sno-cat drivers who'd driven it hundreds of times was lost for several hours once when he got out to search for the road

Hiking it at night in winter _may_ be technically illegal if you need a trail pass which aren't valid at night, not that that has ever stopped anybody :-)
http://greatglentrails.com/Winter-Page-305.html

bobandgeri
02-11-2008, 07:01 PM
Hiking it at night in winter _may_ be technically illegal if you need a trail pass which aren't valid at night, not that that has ever stopped anybody :-)
http://greatglentrails.com/Winter-Page-305.html


Hmm - wonder if one can legally hike on the Auto Road at all since it is Private Property.

marchowes
02-11-2008, 07:01 PM
<FLAME>It's too bad the 4k club apparently considers its sole mission to be selling patches and holding awards ceremonies, and can't find time to clarify its rules</FLAME>




I tend to agree somewhat, although I bet they will get a laugh over the fact that this is even being debated as anything other than "Don't drive to the summit" :D

peakbagger
02-11-2008, 07:10 PM
For the case of Mt Washington, the auto road in the past has actively prevented people from hiking up or down the mountain via the road even in winter unless they have bought a ticket. It is not always enforced. They own the road so they get to make the rules, so perhaps the 4000 footer club rule was put in place to keep people from unknowlingly breaking a rule of the auto road.

kltilton
02-11-2008, 07:12 PM
It is legal in the winter if you buy a trail pass. I have only been up once in the winter, and I bought a pass. In the summer I don't believe they require a pass, but if you hike the road keep your eyes open and stay to the side. Don't assume that the cars will stop for you or move out of the way. I have done many training runs in the spring on the road and have never been hasseled by employees of the auto road.

Kevin, Judy and Emma
02-11-2008, 07:28 PM
I think it's pretty straight forward:

...you are not allowed to use the auto roads on Mts Washington, Mansfield and Equinox.

What's to interpret?

I've got to agree with Tim, these are the rules. Further on it says this:

Notice the use of the word "game". Games have rules, which may well be arbitrary, but if you play a game you should follow the rules. If you do not like the rules, you are free to define your own game, but must clearly differentiate it from the "official" game.

I hiked on the Auto Road once in winter, it looked like this:

http://www.ghostflowers.com/forumshots/54edutrip.jpg

KDT

DougPaul
02-11-2008, 07:46 PM
For the case of Mt Washington, the auto road in the past has actively prevented people from hiking up or down the mountain via the road even in winter unless they have bought a ticket.
This is recent--only since the Great Glen XC ski area opened. They treat the lower part of the road as one of their ski trails.

I skied the road from the 4 mile mark (Halfway House?) back when it was still open. Nice run. (It was too icy above to ski.)

Doug

marchowes
02-11-2008, 08:07 PM
Lets read this again:


For peaks with trails starting at maintained roads the rule is simple: Drive to the trailhead then walk (note that you are not allowed to use the auto roads on Mts Washington, Mansfield and Equinox).


They are not saying don't hike the road, they are saying don't drive up, start 20 feet from the summit then "hike" 20 feet to the summit. The sentence is referring to starting points, not hiking routes. This stops people from driving up to the parking lot on Washington, climbing the 100 or so vertical feet and then counting the peak as a FTFC hike (whatever thats worth, apparently a lot).

If I climbed Washington by the auto road and someone told me I didn't actually climb the mountain I would tell them where to go. :eek:

This is what its all about:


The basic rule is very simple: You must climb (on foot!) to and from the summit of each peak on the list. In winter skis and snowshoes are both allowed.

Kevin Rooney
02-11-2008, 08:39 PM
The FAQ (rules) says:

For peaks with trails starting at maintained roads the rule is simple: Drive to the trailhead then walk (note that you are not allowed to use the auto roads on Mts Washington, Mansfield and Equinox).

Hey, I don't make the rules, and don't much like to follow them, so ... if you want to hike the Auto Road Rd and count it, then all the more power to you.

But ... as someone pointed out - what's to interpret on this one? It says "Drive to the trailhead..." and since there isn't any trailhead for the walking up the Auto Road, it's seems rather clear, at least to me.

Above all, hike you own hike. Pizza your own pizza. Whatever ...

marchowes
02-11-2008, 08:54 PM
http://www.amc4000footer.org/app/AppWM4.pdf



To qualify for membership in any of these clubs, a hiker must climb on foot to and from each summit on the
list (the committee positively scowls at the thought of hikers riding snowmobiles, mountain bikes, ski lifts, cog
railways, or in cars [on summit auto roads] for all or part of either ascent or descent, but regarding fine points of
peakbagging ethics each hiker is left to the exactions of her or his conscience).


You can walk up the auto road according to this document, which is available on the FTFC committee website. This is the official application document BTW.


I hope this kills any confusion so we can all be on the same page.

dug
02-11-2008, 09:36 PM
Hey, I don't make the rules, and don't much like to follow them, so ... if you want to hike the Auto Road Rd and count it, then all the more power to you.

But ... as someone pointed out - what's to interpret on this one? It says "Drive to the trailhead..." and since there isn't any trailhead for the walking up the Auto Road, it's seems rather clear, at least to me.

Above all, hike you own hike. Pizza your own pizza. Whatever ...


Hey, now wait just a cotton-picking minute :D ... Are you saying these can only be climbed via a trail? What about a bushwack?

dug
02-11-2008, 09:42 PM
I think it's pretty straight forward:

...you are not allowed to use the auto roads on Mts Washington, Mansfield and Equinox.

What's to interpret?

I've got to agree with Tim, these are the rules. Further on it says this:

Notice the use of the word "game". Games have rules, which may well be arbitrary, but if you play a game you should follow the rules. If you do not like the rules, you are free to define your own game, but must clearly differentiate it from the "official" game.

I hiked on the Auto Road once in winter, it looked like this:



KDT

If I can't use the roads, can I cross over them? Say, from Wamsutta to Nelson Crag? Do I have to hop it? Can I pole volt over it?

Where do the rules dictate that if I'm going to use my own rules, I must clearly differentiate them from the official game. If I'm making up my rules, maybe I want a rule that says nobody can know these are my own rules?
:eek:

Tuco
02-11-2008, 10:08 PM
Very recently I tried to apply the logic argument to this- and by the way, there clearly is an interpretation issue here- saying you are right alone doesn't make it so, imo.

It makes no sense you can't walk up the road to the summit, but makes sense you can't drive to the parking lot up the road and walk the rest. Is walking the road so easy it should not count? Do I not count Flume if I take the Osseo since flume slide was much harder?

And it does matter to people- heck, lots of patches and scrolls handed out so why is so wrong for people to ask and wonder? This is just conversation, I bet everybody who has posted has already done George anyhow, just curious.

Nothing wrong with laying groundwork so those who do care can be on an equal footing.

I for one am curious as to an offical response, and it makes NO difference to me- been there, done that.

And as always I expect to be wrong. Logic hasn't taken me very far ;)

Have fun.

hikrgrl
02-11-2008, 10:19 PM
There's a dice game with the Guiding Light Principle:

"During the game, players can (and are encouraged to) make up their own rules. The Guiding Light says that new rules may be added at any time, provided all players agree. The new rule always goes into effect the next time the situation occurs."

:D

Artex
02-12-2008, 04:41 AM
Giggy couldn't have said it better.

Tom Rankin
02-12-2008, 06:26 AM
Giggy couldn't have said it better.I always try to enjoy myself and have fun in the mountains. But I also like games where I can play by the rules and win! :D

This is just my opinion, but if I did do any climbs of any of peaks, and was publicly acknowledged by any organization as a member of theirs, I would not in good conscience want to have fallen short of their requirements. I had this dilemma with Cliff in the ADKs. I got to the false summit once, and turned back, thinking I had made it all the way. Later I learned I didn't make it. The next time up, deep snow and failing daylight made me retreat at the same spot, this time knowing I was not at the top! Aaaarg! Finally, I got to the true summit last winter and it was a sweet feeling! :)

bikehikeskifish
02-12-2008, 06:53 AM
I think that the evidence is now well in favor of being able to count the auto road (Marc's pointer to the AMC application in PDF format at http://www.amc4000footer.org/app/AppWM4.pdf). Unfortunately, the wording there is different from the HTML-formatted rules in the rule section of the FAQ http://www.amc4000footer.org/faq.htm which has lead to confusion.

Until I read the PDF, I could agree with either interpretation, but now I am inclined to side with "the auto road counts". I am also in agreement with Tom in that you try and play the game (assuming you're playing the AMC 4000 footer game) in the spirit in which it was intended, but in the end, as each is left to the exactions of her or his conscience, it really is up to each of us to decide if the peak was bagged according to the rules. Yes, I went only to the "old summit" on Owl's Head, but my conscious is OK with that since the rules still recognize it. The whole thing is on the honor system anyway, and I am sure that most of 'us' (VFTTers) have played the game in accordance with the rules.

Tim

bikehikeskifish
02-12-2008, 06:54 AM
There's a dice game with the Guiding Light Principle:

"During the game, players can (and are encouraged to) make up their own rules. The Guiding Light says that new rules may be added at any time, provided all players agree. The new rule always goes into effect the next time the situation occurs."

:D

At my house, we call these "Amanda rules", except that only Amanda has to agree to the new rule :) Funny how they always favor her. :rolleyes:

It is also a variation of these rules that make it impossible to bag all the peaks on the "Honey-Do" list.

Tim

dr_wu002
02-12-2008, 07:00 AM
This is just my opinion, but if I did do any climbs of any of peaks, and was publicly acknowledged by any organization as a member of theirs, I would not in good conscience want to have fallen short of their requirements. I had this dilemma with Cliff in the ADKs. I got to the false summit once, and turned back, thinking I had made it all the way. Later I learned I didn't make it. The next time up, deep snow and failing daylight made me retreat at the same spot, this time knowing I was not at the top! Aaaarg! Finally, I got to the true summit last winter and it was a sweet feeling! :)You know, I respect every person that has done the NH 48, but I have to say: I do appreciate a good liar. One would assume that to pull off a complete lie... trip reports, pictures, summit shots, trail descriptions and so on for the entire NH48 without ever having stepped a foot on any of the peaks is a admirable feat in itself! And besides, most of it's just entertainment anyway so I feel that instead of shunning we should embrace those who would 'make up' doing a peak or two or three or four. Perhaps even add a peak, "yeah, I did Mt. Fibracanocker -- it's a 4000 footer!" just to spice things up. How would anyone know? Hey, I just did the 48 -- wanna see my trip reports? I have pictures too! Maybe it's time for the 4000'er Committee to start being a little more inclusive and invite members from ALL walks of society into their ranks based solely on perceived accomplishments and not actual ones.

-Dr. Wu

Jim lombard
02-12-2008, 07:15 AM
It is legal in the winter if you buy a trail pass. I have only been up once in the winter, and I bought a pass. In the summer I don't believe they require a pass, but if you hike the road keep your eyes open and stay to the side. Don't assume that the cars will stop for you or move out of the way. I have done many training runs in the spring on the road and have never been hasseled by employees of the auto road.

That's true, I've called them and we will have to buy passes. I agree also that weather plays a big factor. We had it planned last March but the weather was bad so we postponed it.

Oh, and I agree with Giggy :)

McRat
02-12-2008, 08:28 AM
I got first dibs on the bumper stickers!




According to the AMC 4000 Footer Committee, this car hasn't climbed
Mt. Washington

MTNRUNR
02-12-2008, 09:03 AM
As anyone can plainly see... :confused:

I find it interesting how so many very knowledgable and experienced "hikers" don't agree on this MINOR point :D

It really doesn't matter to me either way as I have done Equinox, Mansfield and Washington...by the rules :rolleyes:

I don't do a lot of hiking and am working on the NEHH list in winter. Pretty much haven't done very many peaks more than once trying to attain that goal.

But, when considering which way to reach the summit on these 3 I never even considered hiking up the road as it was not the easiest/shortest/safest way ;)

Never even got into "reading the fine print" in the rules as I though it was pretty simple...get to the summit and back from a trailhead. Anyone that would consider the parking lot NEAR the summit of Mt Washington as a trailhead would be...an idiot :confused:

For the people that wouldn't consider a peak "bagged" by someone hiking up one of these auto roads...from the bottom(not a pull off part way up?) I find it interesting that it has been stated that Gene Daniels would consider it "bagged"...if it's OK by Gene(almost God almighty :D )...who are "we" to argue :confused:

Let the Games begin :D :p ;)

Kevin Rooney
02-12-2008, 10:25 AM
Hey, now wait just a cotton-picking minute :D ... Are you saying these can only be climbed via a trail? What about a bushwack? When I read the FAQ the very same thought occurred to me.

I did the Auto Road once. It was in June, and a friend was recovering from surgery and wanted to climb Washington. We thought it would be the least stressful route, but overall it was probably the toughest hike/walk we'd ever done. Mostly it was boring, and it seemed interminable. We descended via Lion's Head and decided that - short of an emergency - we'd probably never do the Auto Road again. This was in the mindset of a 3 season climb.

Maybe someone can stop by the Mountain Wanderer and ask Steve Smith what he's take on this issue is. He's on the committee, although I think Eric processes the apps.

It's all a game. Don't take it too seriously. The main thing is to stay safe when you're up there.

DougPaul
02-12-2008, 10:36 AM
I did the Auto Road once. It was in June, and a friend was recovering from surgery and wanted to climb Washington. We thought it would be the least stressful route, but overall it was probably the toughest hike/walk we'd ever done. Mostly it was boring, and it seemed interminable. We descended via Lion's Head and decided that - short of an emergency - we'd probably never do the Auto Road again. This was in the mindset of a 3 season climb.
I've walked down it (in summer) because it was late and getting dark. The unrelenting pounding on the down-sloping pavement was rather painful. IMO, an escape route only.


It's all a game. Don't take it too seriously. The main thing is to stay safe when you're up there.
Not only is it just a game, it is just a game based upon a recreational activity. IMO, getting back down is far more important than getting up or ticking off some list.

Doug

KayakDan
02-12-2008, 12:05 PM
Hey, now wait just a cotton-picking minute :D ...

:eek: :eek: :eek:
Cotton Kills!! Cotton Kills!
That should be a Bergelene pickin' minute!

Sorry....let's go back to arguing over a crazy technicality. ;)

Snowflea
02-12-2008, 06:55 PM
I've done the auto road several times. Have run up to the summit and back under full moon 3 or 4 times in summer; hiked up Tucks, then sledded (wheeeeee!) down the road as far as OJT; and once in May I ran up the auto road, be-bopped across the Northern Presies to Madison and back, then ran back down the road. It was a perfect, windless day. There was a bunch of snow in the trees but very little above treeline, so I was able to wear shorts and running shoes.

I enjoyed each excursion on the auto road very much, never finding it tedious or boring. Key is picking the right time to do it.

It always "counted." :)

Kevin, Judy and Emma
02-12-2008, 07:09 PM
I retract my previous statements and yes, admit that my "interpretation" is probably wrong. Mohamad, Gene and now Steve Smith pretty much agree that it would count. My correspondence with Steve:

Hi Kevin,

Good to hear from you. I didn't write the rules, but it seems clear to me that this "rule" applies only to driving up to a trailhead on the Auto Road and then ascending the mountain from there. I did that last year to redline some trails in the Great Gulf, and even though the ascent was 3200 ft. from the floor of the Gulf it wouldn't count as an "official" ascent. In my interpretation, walking up the Auto Road from the bottom WOULD count as an "official" ascent (private property issues aside). In reading the sentence over, the "auto road rule" could be more concisely defined - something the Committee could take up at its spring meeting.

Good hiking,

Steve Smith

This is good enough for me!

KDT

Mats Roing
02-13-2008, 11:02 AM
If you go up a mountain with your heart........the surface doesn't matter.......

A sensible mind usually is a part of that package.........usually.......I met a yoga teacher at Chimney Pond a few years ago. He was going to do the AT from the North......very humble and nice guy but in the conversation it came out that he hadn't really hiked before and he hoped to learn as he hiked........don't know the outcome.......just hope he was a fast learner :D

Kevin Rooney
02-13-2008, 11:34 AM
He was going to do the AT from the North......very humble and nice guy but in the conversation it came out that he hadn't really hiked before and he hoped to learn as he hiked........don't know the outcome.......just hope he was a fast learner :D

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

There are many anecdotal stories of people doing the AT as newbies. Don't know if anyone keeps statistics on this, or whether there's any way of getting accurate info. If so, it would be interesting to compare completion rates based upon previous levels of hiking experience.

Tom Rankin
02-13-2008, 11:39 AM
Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

There are many anecdotal stories of people doing the AT as newbies. Don't know if anyone keeps statistics on this, or whether there's any way of getting accurate info. If so, it would be interesting to compare completion rates based upon previous levels of hiking experience.I'll bet that gets discussed on Whiteblaze.net a lot!

I've read that if you want to get a lot of good new gear, you just have to walk the North Bound AT for the first few days! :D

I think the dropout rate is pretty high, like 80%, no matter who you are!

hikethe115
02-13-2008, 11:57 AM
The estimated statistics can be found on the ATC's Web site:

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851143/

I say estimated since not everyone registers at the beginning or end. Also, the people who make it to Katahdin may not have truly "completed" their hike. It could be they skipped some that they may or may not go back to finish. But, it is a rough estimate and the only thing we have to go by. The percentage is increasing. I think partly due to better gear, better information, and trail magic along the way. There are many levels of experience in that mix. A woman I met had basically no experience, decided this was the year and 2 weeks later was on the trail....she finished. Injuries are the biggest reason for people getting off. Well, I could go on and on with this topic so I'll stop here!
:D

Mats Roing
02-13-2008, 12:55 PM
Regarding the encounter with the yoga teacher at Chimney Pond I posted earlier - it was pretty funny how we met him and maybe this is a bit off the topic of the thread but it might give some readers a good laugh:

My buddy John and I had done the Knife Edge loop and were enjoying a cool bath in the afternoon sun in the area 1/4 mile southeast of the camping area (swimming not allowed in Chimney Pond). It was a perfect day so to speak. Suddenly on a cliff 100 feet away this bearded dude in a long white robe shows up. John leans over and says: "I'm having a religious experience right now but I didn't expect Jesus to show up!"

Paradox
02-13-2008, 02:32 PM
If I can't use the roads, can I cross over them? Say, from Wamsutta to Nelson Crag? Do I have to hop it? Can I pole volt over it?

Where do the rules dictate that if I'm going to use my own rules, I must clearly differentiate them from the official game. If I'm making up my rules, maybe I want a rule that says nobody can know these are my own rules?
:eek:Anybody remember "Calvinball" from the Calvin and Hobbes comic strip? :)

Karst
02-13-2008, 03:03 PM
I and my colleagues frequently mention Calvinball at work when circumstances throw out one or all the assumptions we had been proceeding under. Of course Calvinball(just like life) doesn't allow any of the other players to disagree with the new rule or rule change. Once it is invoked, it is in effect.

David Metsky
02-13-2008, 03:30 PM
The other important aspect of Calvinball is that you can't do things the same way twice. It's not that the rules can change, it's that they MUST change.

bikehikeskifish
02-13-2008, 03:42 PM
http://www.simplych.com/cb-1rule.gif (http://www.simplych.com/cb_rules.htm)

(click for rules)

Karst
02-13-2008, 04:02 PM
I sure do miss Calvin and Hobbes. And I'm glad we appear to be coming to a definitive answer on the autoroad.

Neil
02-14-2008, 05:25 AM
If you have fun and enjoy yourself -
Maybe that's not what drives all listbaggers.

There's a road to (almost) the top of Whiteface, closed in winter, and AKAIK illegal for pedestrians in summer. Skiing the road is one of the most fun and enjoyable ways to bag a 46er peak. And, get this, it definitely counts!

Eric Savage
02-14-2008, 03:13 PM
Although it has been pretty well established, let me put this to rest by saying the the prohibition is against driving on the Auto Roads to Washington, Equinox and Mansfield. Walking on them is acceptable subject to the caveats about private property. As noted here (and elsewhere) however, they aren't necessarily a very attractive option. Likewise, there is no prohibition against bushwhacking to 4000-footers (as long as you start from a point that would be considered acceptible for a trailless peak), though it seems unlikely that someone would be bushwhacking on their first trip to a peak with a perfectly good trail.

The rules on the website and in the information packet(s) were originally written by Gene. I have made some changes and additions for clarity, but probably haven't been as good as I could be about keeping the two sources in sync. Although there is certainly work left to be done, I don't think we'll ever have a document that can answer every possible technicality, which is why it's ultimately a matter of personal conscience on some of these finer points.

For the record, the majority of my work for the Four Thousand Footer Committee is making sure that applications are processed in a timely manner, not worrying about how many patches we're selling. I realize that most people here appreciate that so I won't go on except to say that organizing the awards ceremony is a task that was long ago delegated to another member of the committee.

Any constructive comments, questions or suggestions on clarifying the rules are welcome (Roy, I do still have yours on file). Until I can figure out how to fix the amc4000footer.org address, I can be reached at vicechair@amc-nh.org

Papa Bear
02-14-2008, 03:23 PM
Maybe that's not what drives all listbaggers.

There's a road to (almost) the top of Whiteface, closed in winter, and AKAIK illegal for pedestrians in summer. Skiing the road is one of the most fun and enjoyable ways to bag a 46er peak. And, get this, it definitely counts!

Is that the one with the elevator to the top? I remember a high pointer (Roy will remember who it was) who proudly mentioned he had bagged that as a high pointer (not as a peak bagger) via elevator.

As for skiing down the Mt. Washington Auto Road (which upon your mention of skiing the Whiteface Road, has now occurred to several folks on this board), I can envision a not-too-pretty scene when the skier, going upwards of 50 MPH, meets the snow cat coming up. :D

DougPaul
02-14-2008, 08:37 PM
As for skiing down the Mt. Washington Auto Road (which upon your mention of skiing the Whiteface Road, has now occurred to several folks on this board), I can envision a not-too-pretty scene when the skier, going upwards of 50 MPH, meets the snow cat coming up. :D
Actually, the Mt Washington auto road is a nice ski run if the snow conditions are good. I've skied the bottom four miles (on wood XC skis with lignostone (compressed, impregnated wood) edges).

Doug

Kevin Rooney
02-14-2008, 09:11 PM
... I can envision a not-too-pretty scene when the skier, going upwards of 50 MPH, meets the snow cat coming up. :D
It's even uglier if you're riding a plastic sled ...

Mats Roing
02-15-2008, 12:17 AM
I can envision a not-too-pretty scene when the skier, going upwards of 50 MPH, meets the snow cat coming up. :D

Or suddenly around a turn the snow is gone.....time to pull out the skateboard! I wouldn't endorse that idea though.........

Neil
02-15-2008, 05:29 AM
I think the Washington auto road is much steeper than the Whiteface one. On a good track but with snow falling heavily we averaged just under 20 mph on WF.

trailbiscuit
02-15-2008, 07:26 AM
FWIW, skiing on the Auto Road is available, but the conditions are very rarely desirable—too much traffic between winter guided tours and Obs and State Park snowcat trips to and from the summit. You really need to hit it after a fresh snow and early in the morning before it gets churned up. Snowshoeing is much more common. Probably not something a lot of VftT readers would do, but plenty of people do.

Also, sledding is not allowed on the Auto Road.

Snowflea
02-15-2008, 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by Papa Bear
... I can envision a not-too-pretty scene when the skier, going upwards of 50 MPH, meets the snow cat coming up.


then KR:
It's even uglier if you're riding a plastic sled ...

Gosh, that would be ugly. Good thing our group was going more like 10 mph tops, had our ears open, and were "sledding defensively."
:D :D :D

BTW, we sledded the road 7-8 years ago and were unaware that it was not allowed...

Sue

Artex
02-15-2008, 09:02 AM
Gosh, that would be ugly. Good thing our group was going more like 10 mph tops, had our ears open, and were "sledding defensively."
:D :D :D

BTW, we sledded the road 7-8 years ago and were unaware that it was not allowed...

Sue

It's not allowed?! That's lame. Is that just on the auto-road or the trails also? Not allowed on the auto-road, I guess I can see... but hope it's still allowed on the trails.

trailbiscuit
02-15-2008, 11:11 AM
Since the Auto Road is private property, it's regulated differently.

Enapai
02-15-2008, 11:16 AM
Never even got into "reading the fine print" in the rules as I though it was pretty simple...get to the summit and back from a trailhead. Anyone that would consider the parking lot NEAR the summit of Mt Washington as a trailhead would be...an idiot :confused:



Actually, it depends on what group association you are hike for. The highpointers simply seek to attain the highest point in each state regardless of the manner in which the summit is attained. For example, quite a few people regularly get Mt. Mitchell (North Carolina) by driving to the parking lot just below the summit.

Backpacker (I know there are mixed opinions of this magazine on the site) did a ranking of the state highpoints a few years ago and I was surprised to see where Mt. Washington ranked, till I considered how easily accessible the summit is via means other than hiking. Mauna Kea (Hawaii) even at 13000+ feet was rated easy because one can drive to 200 yards below the summit.

While I do ascribe to the notion that hiking a mountain means making a reasonable attempt at going from bottom to top under your own power, this does not mean that all "summiteers" subscribe to the same notion. As a result labeling someone who would use the parking lot near the summit as a trailhead as an idiot is a little short-sited.

Enapai (Dave)

bcskier
02-16-2008, 02:59 PM
I've got a way to solve this whole problem. Start a new organization. The "From Sea Level 4000 Footer Club". For any summit to count, the summiter must obtain the summit, by walking only, starting from sea level where ever that might be obtained closest to the summit (Portsmouth comes to mind). Of course with global warming this will get easier and easier so if you want to get credit for being the most hardcore member of this new club get out there soon and start walking ;)

dug
02-16-2008, 06:56 PM
Ha! Ha!

I can see it now. Some old guy sitting on the porch, rocking his chair and saying "Back when I was in the mountains, we had it REALLY rough. Before Global Warming, we had to walk all the way from George's Bank. Kids nowadays, they got it easy. With sea level in Tuftonboro, why the mountains are barely a day's walk." :p

Grandaddy
02-16-2008, 07:29 PM
For any summit to count, the summiter must obtain the summit, by walking only, starting from sea level where ever that might be obtained closest to the summit
Ankle bracelet required for verification :p

Mike P.
02-18-2008, 11:14 PM
The whole rules thing seems almost silly. I was having a conversation with a 46er this summer on a hike & lying about being a 46er or a NH 4,000 member seems silly.

Most of your co-workers will think you're playing with less then a full deck for doing it & if you happen to run across a member & you start talking about your favorite summits or the ones you'd never go back to & why, you
ll be found out. A new Owl's Head Summit, the view from Zealand, the short walk into Allen, Prefering Old Speck over Katahdin, etc.

Karst
02-19-2008, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by bcskier
For any summit to count, the summiter must obtain the summit, by walking only, starting from sea level where ever that might be obtained closest to the summit

Last August we had an 18 year old colleague with us while hiking a section of the Continental Divide Trail. He had just completed climbing all 54 of the 14K peaks in Colorado. After we expressed amazement at this feat, and further discussion of the effort involved, we came to the realization that the trailhead for many of them was closer to the summit distance-wise and elevation-wise than many 4K mountains in NH. Of course the big issue for us O2 rich Rhode Islanders was the altitude - not a problem for a Colorado native.

On the point of "does it count", we all have to live with ourselves and there are many ways to pull a Rosie Ruiz. I was to the top of Washington 3 times before I wrote down the date, twice because the cairn was a mob scene and once because my 5 year old son was too pooped to climb down and needed a cog ride - but I had no doubt I would get there. I'm proud of the 4K accomplishment but being in the woods means a lot more than a patch or a certificate.

bikehikeskifish
02-19-2008, 03:39 PM
Heh, the 14ers have a saying... "6288 feet? Well, I guess we could drill a well to that elevation..."

Tim

dug
02-19-2008, 03:50 PM
Last August we had an 18 year old colleague with us while hiking a section of the Continental Divide Trail. He had just completed climbing all 54 of the 14K peaks in Colorado. After we expressed amazement at this feat, and further discussion of the effort involved, we came to the realization that the trailhead for many of them was closer to the summit distance-wise and elevation-wise than many 4K mountains in NH. Of course the big issue for us O2 rich Rhode Islanders was the altitude - not a problem for a Colorado native.

On the point of "does it count", we all have to live with ourselves and there are many ways to pull a Rosie Ruiz. I was to the top of Washington 3 times before I wrote down the date, twice because the cairn was a mob scene and once because my 5 year old son was too pooped to climb down and needed a cog ride - but I had no doubt I would get there. I'm proud of the 4K accomplishment but being in the woods means a lot more than a patch or a certificate.

My younger brother, 6 at the time, had a similar situation. We "Cogged" it down and didn't count it until the next trip the following year. Still, quite an accomplishment for a five-year old!!