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Tramper Al
07-21-2004, 12:55 PM
A question for clarification of 4000 footer committee rules.

Say a road in to the base of a Maine 100 Highest Peak is rough, but commonly passable by 4WD vehicles, though not wise to try in Vespa with sidecar, for instance. In that case, I would be permitted to bicycle that road to the point where the 4WD vehicles commonly reach, then hike the peak, yes?

OK, say the bridge on Wiggles Brook Road is partially fallen away, and the road partially blocked by boulders, just hypothetically. Now, would using a mountain bike to cover the miles to the base of Cupsuptic Snow violate the rules, do you suppose?

Or, should I just wait until winter?

Aside: I already know only too well that many of you don't care about the rules, so you really need not remind me of this fact, if that's OK.

Thanks in advance,

David Metsky
07-21-2004, 01:32 PM
I would say that if you could legally and physically drive to the same place you bike on the day of the hike than you can count it.

As an example, if somehow the Livermore Road was legally opened for driving one day, on that day you could bike up but not on days the gate was closed.

Similarly, if the bridge is now impassable by car, you cannot use a bike past that point simply because it used to be drivable.

So, in your first instance, yes that would be fine. In your second one, no, you'd have to walk.

-dave-

Tramper Al
07-21-2004, 01:39 PM
Thanks Dave,

I kind of thought I might be twisting the rules on that one. I guess since its a half day hike, I now need not worry about how to spend the rest of the day.

MichaelJ
07-21-2004, 04:48 PM
Just to be clear, this would also imply that if and when they get around to rebuilding the Zealand Road bridge, during the period of construction you would not be able to use a bike to get up to the Zealand Trail parking lot... true?

Mohamed Ellozy
07-21-2004, 04:58 PM
If you can drive up it in a 4 wheel drive, but do not own one, you can use a bicycle as a substitute.

If you cannot drive to it in a 4 wheel drive you are not allowed to use a bicycle.

This rule removes an unfair advantage that 4 wheel drive owners (and their friends!) have.

From my 4,000 Footer Club FAQ (http://home.earthlink.net/~ellozy/4000-footer-club.html):
It is acceptable to use bikes on logging roads that are not part of officially maintained trails if the road would be fairly easily passable to an average four-wheel-drive vehicle (not an ATV) without "heroic measures" such as winches. If you think a jeep might not make it, then please walk.

Tramper Al
07-21-2004, 06:15 PM
I'd say that biking Zealand is out, and Hale too just got a little bit tougher.

Two questions:

1. If Michelle drives the bridge again, only she tells me this time, can I bike it later that same day?

2. What if I do own a quite heroic 4WD vehicle, but do not wish to see it fall into the KENNEBAGO River (or the Kennebec, or any other Kenn* river for that matter!) from a significant height?

Papa Bear
07-21-2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Tramper Al
What if I do own a quite heroic 4WD vehicle, but do not wish to see it fall into the Kennebec River from a significant height?
That's Kennebago Al, not Kennebec. Your on the wrong page of DeLorme.

Why don't you just wiggle over the bridge and wiggle on down Wiggle Brook Road an stop trying to wriggle out of a perfectly lovely road walk. :D :D

And don't be cuttin' no tails off no Fisher Cats just 'cus you're out of film.

stopher
07-21-2004, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Tramper Al
What if I do own a quite heroic 4WD vehicle, but do not wish to see it fall into the Kennebec River from a significant height? Then you can ride your bike up to the point that you believe that your heroic 4WD vehicle would fall into the river. But you must walk from there.

PB is right, Al. You're wasting more energy trying to figure this out than it would take to walk it.

Frosty
07-21-2004, 09:58 PM
I'm not sure what all this means, why you are trying to not walk. Are you trying to collect the 4000 footers by hiking as little as possible? Is this another list? The 4000 footers by the shortest trails?

Still confused about the 4WD rules also. You mean you start hiking wherever a 4WD can go? Wouldn't that we be the parking lot at the top of the Mt Washington Auto Road? That would certainly be the shortest hike of any 4000 footer! Or would you be riding your bike up the Auto Road? I'd rather climb than ride a bike up there, even if they'd permit it, which I doubt.

Tom

David Metsky
07-21-2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Frosty
Wouldn't that we be the parking lot at the top of the Mt Washington Auto Road?

From the FAQ:
Drive to the trailhead then walk (note that you are not allowed to use the auto roads on Mts Washington, Mansfield and Equinox)

-dave-

Tramper Al
07-22-2004, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Frosty
Are you trying to collect the 4000 footers by hiking as little as possible?
Ouch! You obviously don't know me too well.

To further clarify:
The mountain being discussed is not a 4000 footer.
It does not have a 'trail'.
Peakbaggers have been driving right up to its base for years - that just happens to be hard to do right now.
I don't typically hike/ski/bike/canoe the easy way.

In a selfish way, I suppose I am 'glad' the bridge is impassable to cars. It seems like it might be fun to put on my cool red polkadot jersey and pedal out to a fine bushwhack in darkest Maine.

At the present moment, I am rather tied down at home, waiting for an important delivery to arrive, and am unable to venture as far as the bridge over the River Kennebago by any means. If that means I am wasting a little energy typing on a keyboard about a trip rather than hiking it, then so be it. Wait a minute, isn't that exactly what the rest of you are doing too?

John H Swanson
07-22-2004, 11:39 AM
If I had a beer for every washed out gully I filled in with logs we could all have a party. I think Gene even recommended bringing a shovel for this purpose at one point. To an extreme: I guess one would not really call it heroic to whip out two 5 ft long pieces of structural steel to bridge a small washout.

peakbagger
07-22-2004, 04:57 PM
One winter when I was working on the winter 4000 footers we had little or no snow around New Years. Me and friend still needed Jefferson. We drove a truck up Jefferson notch road from the north and parked in the gravel parking lot at Caps Ridge Trailhead on the day after New Years and then proceeded to climb the mountain. While we were coming down we met a group of female hikers who had driven up from the south end. Neither one of the vehicles had studs or chains and we didnt use winches. As far as I was concerned (and still am) this was a "legal hike" Of course just for the chuckles I subsequently did it from Appalachia.

Needless to say this is not a normal occurence to plan on!

Michelle
07-28-2004, 08:45 PM
Though my stomach had a bit of a knot in it, the day I drove over the bridge there were some folks camping in the grassy area near the bridge and told us that a truck had gone over the same bridge just a few hours earlier, so that made me feel a wee bit better about driving over.

Papabear has a few good photos of the boulders etc, I say it's perfectly legal to drive on over (or bike in your case) unless you get there and the bridge is IN the river! It is driveable and therefore that makes it legal in my book. Even in Gene's notes it mentions, end of car travel at Porter Brook.

Hope your delivery comes soon Tramper, UPS must be behind schedule with the Tour and all :)

Frosty
07-28-2004, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Tramper Al
typing on a keyboard about a trip rather than hiking it..... Wait a minute, isn't that exactly what the rest of you are doing too? Alas, so true :(

Frosty

RoySwkr
07-29-2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by MichaelJ
Just to be clear, this would also imply that if and when they get around to rebuilding the Zealand Road bridge, during the period of construction you would not be able to use a bike to get up to the Zealand Trail parking lot
That may be a moot point - the way I read the closure notice, the bridge would be closed to all public travel including bikes and pedestrians and that is not an easy river to ford.

The original ruling on motorized travel came when it was still legal to snowmobile up many 4000-footers (the first year, some deskbound bureaucrat decreed the Hancock Loop Trail to be open to snowmobiling although it is not known if any ever did it)and people wanted to know why they couldn't snowmobile in the approach at least. The 4000-footer club decreed that they were a club for hikers and did not want to encourage use of snowmobiles, so snowmobiles could not be used in ascents except for Baxter Park roads. People who wanted to climb peaks using snowmobiles were welcome to form their own club. Back when the typical yuppie peakbagger owned a sports car, they tried to discourage 4wd use to trailheads by suggesting that you were only allowed to drive to where you could get in a passenger car and those rare few with 4wd had to use 2wd mode. Of course they lost that one with the advent of SUVs. Allowing mountain bikes where you might otherwise use an SUV is their last gasp against gas-guzzlers. And I suppose that if there are a lot of people who want to ride in a long way with mountain bikes, they can still form their own club.

It is always hard to judge "someone could have" situations, people have driven across the ford at Porter Brook and much of the way to the col so can I do the same with my mountain bike? There is a similar debate raging in the prominence group where you are allowed to substitute for a peak with closed access but not for a peak you find too difficult but others have climbed, so what about a tough peak with closed access so you don't know whether you can climb it?

Tramper Al
07-29-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by RoySwkr
The 4000-footer club decreed that they were a club for hikers and did not want to encourage use of snowmobiles, so snowmobiles could not be used in ascents except for Baxter Park roads.
Are you saying that it is OK (by club rules) to go by snowmobile on the closed tote road in to say, Slide Dam or Roaring Brook? I never would have guessed this. I definitely have to hike my own hike on this one.

Mohamed Ellozy
07-29-2004, 12:03 PM
Roy is almost always right, but I wonder about this ...

From the FAQ (http://home.earthlink.net/~ellozy/4000-footer-club.html):
In winter we have absolutely forbidden the use of snowmobiles, even when a road is passable to ordinary cars in summer.That is clearly what I have understood from conversations with FTFC Committee members.

RoySwkr
07-31-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Mohamed Ellozy
Roy is almost always right, but I wonder about this ...

As we have mentioned, their rules change with time. Several of the early finishers made use of snowmobiles in Baxter which is now a no-no, just as many people now use 4wd and mountain bikes which was once a no-no.

bill bowden
08-02-2004, 03:30 PM
Some years ago I wrestled my 4Runner to 3100 feet on Whitecap, well past Porter Brook and turned a planned reconnaisance before the next day hike into a 45 minute stroll. The drive was far more adventurous than most of my hikes but I did a more legitimate effort to get the peak a second time.

The lists with bushwhacks have plenty of very legitimate difficulties associated with them and there is no need to make the trips harder or longer than necessary. The winter 4000 s have become much easier because the Kanc is now open year round and Jefferson Notch and Mount Clinton roads are often open to wheeled travel, but the main reason is the large rnumber of hikers reduces the need to break trail.

Bill

Mohamed Ellozy
08-02-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by bill bowden
The winter 4000 s have become much easier ... but the main reason is the large number of hikers reduces the need to break trail.Or find it in the first place :)