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scree flinger
10-27-2004, 04:41 PM
I saw this posting on the trail condition forum:

"If you hike with a dog as I do you will need to assist your pet through some the of the boulder field areas. [ladders, drops, holes] I know the rule is to have your pet on a leash but if you do this through a high percentage of this loop you take the risk of having you animal pull you off balance and a serious fall could happen. Forget the leash rule - unsafe action!! [I do must of the time anyway]"

Isn't more advisable to leave the dog home that weekend? I know many rules I would like to break, ( having a fire or camping on a peak) but I don't out of respect to others and the laws.

I hope this is the exception rather than the rule with most hikers.

bobandgeri
10-27-2004, 05:16 PM
This thread is likely to turn nasty!


Let us start by saying we are not dog owners. While there may be some areas with a rule that states a dog must be on a leash - in most areas we all hike that is not the case. It is considered courteous to have your dog under control - this does not mean having them on a leash. We take our neighbors dogs hiking with us whenever we can - they are very well behaved - they come when called, basically ignore other hikers, do not chase wild life, do not bark, and will even go well off the trail to poop. We do have leashes with us in case there are people around that are afraid of dogs, but 99% of the time they are under control via methods other than a leash.

Dogs are natural scramblers and if given the chance to pick their own path will do so with our needing help much of the time. The more they hike the better they get at this.

Leaving a dog at home is not going to turn it into a well behaved dog or let it learn how to scramble up rocks or climb a ladder. If you have a dog that you control by way of a leash - wait until there are no others around before you take it off the leash to get over the obstacle. The more time you spend with your dog hiking together, the more time you have to work on it's behavior on the trail. Just like kids - dogs need to be trained.

Wild
10-27-2004, 06:34 PM
I don't see any problem with letting the dog off the leash in tricky areas, provided the dog is well-behaved and will heel when other hikers appear. Dogs and people scramble at different paces, so having the dog leashed could be dangerous at worst and awkward at best. My experience has been that most dog owners are responsible, considerate people; it is those unfortunate few - careless people with untrained, misbehaved animals - who ruin it for others. I say this as someone who is not a dog owner.

In general, following rules blindly is not always the best thing to do. I'm not advocating breaking the rules haphazardly, but in this fellow's case, what would be worse: his dog startles a couple of timid hikers, or he injures himself badly enough that those other hikers have to abort their hike to go get him help?

funkyfreddy
10-27-2004, 07:47 PM
I can't believe it, you mean people actually let their dog off the leash when they're out hiking? Quick, call Homeland Security!!! How dare they allow their pets to run unchained in American forests! After all, we wouldn't want to give anyone the impression this is still a free country now,would we?!? :p

scree flinger
10-27-2004, 07:53 PM
Worse would be a tired hiker, perhaps with a heavy pack, in a "tricky area", balanced precariously to reach or jump across something on a steep incline. Just as he moves ole' fido comes bounding over a rock, off leash, and knocks you off balance. Numerous scenarios can only be imagined that could happen miles away from help. Yes, most dogs and owners don't do that however I have had many run in's with large unattended dogs wearing my weekend pack on a narrow, steep ledge trails over the years. Not pleasent to say the least. ALL dogs should be leashed, at the very least carry a long piece of rope for those tricky areas. Remember, the other hiker(s) has no idea of your dogs personality. Recommending to others to brake the rules in the Adirondack High Peaks dosen't make sense unless it's an emergency.

hillman1
10-27-2004, 08:12 PM
I don't bring my dog to the high peaks because he is anti-leash. However, a ranger has told me that it is AOK to unleash your dog in areas that you deem unsafe for leashed travel. I've read in a lean-to register about a guy carrying his yellow lab in his pack through the area in question. I'm feeling a locked thread coming this way...Anyone want to predict a # of posts. This one is like a bear canister thread...

Peakbagr
10-27-2004, 09:05 PM
Hillman,

You really had me laughing.


.....tick, tick, tick, tick ;)

Frosty
10-27-2004, 11:12 PM
Worse would be a tired hiker, perhaps with a heavy pack, in a "tricky area", balanced precariously to reach or jump across something on a steep incline. Just as he moves ole' fido comes bounding over a rock, off leash, and knocks you off balance. Perhaps the tired hiker ought to think twice before trying to jump across a steep incline with a heavy pack while balanced precariously. Then, while he's thinking, the dog will go bounding by. See? It's all good. (Then the precariously-balanced, tired hiker with the heavy pack can attempt to leap over something on the steep incline to his heart's content.)

Butch79
10-27-2004, 11:50 PM
For folks without a dog of their own, Bob & Geri above sure know whereof they speak. I have a leash handy for my guy in case we run into a gaggle of hikers or someone else's rambunctious pooch, and just to comply with ADK regs when need be, but he's too courteous and well-behaved a hiker for a leash to be necessary on the trail in general (and, frankly, probably better than I am at keeping to a herdpath when it becomes indistinct or confused). Impractical, too: he's about two-thirds my body weight, so being tied to him while we're clambering over rocks and logs would have me doing more falling than walking. No argument here that dogs in the backwoods should be "under control" and not allowed to go charging up to other hikers, climbers, and campers -- but, all due respect to hikers with overanxious attitudes toward dogs in general, when I'm in the woods, it's other hikers I encounter that get my antenna up, not dogs. Dogs are a lot easier to read than people.

Happy trails --
Uncle Butch

snowshoe
10-28-2004, 05:34 AM
You can have the most well behaved dog but that person coming up the trail does not know that. Besides they could be afraid of all dogs. I have seen this happen more than once. Is their a name for a dog Phobea (Did I spell that correctly :confused: ) I am in no way against dogs, It does not matter to me whether they are leashed or not. I just hate stepping in their poop. Just wanted to throw this out and add some fuel to the fire :D :D .

ADackR
10-28-2004, 07:33 AM
Perhaps the tired hiker ought to think twice before trying to jump across a steep incline with a heavy pack while balanced precariously. Then, while he's thinking, the dog will go bounding by. See? It's all good. (Then the precariously-balanced, tired hiker with the heavy pack can attempt to leap over something on the steep incline to his heart's content.)


this one got me, pretty funny...

people without dogs have a wild imagination...yes some dogs on the trail may be alittle excited and may run up to you but have you ever seen a dog on the trail come and attack someone....:) i mean, even if i was deathly afraid of dogs i think if i were to come upon one on the trail that my logical thinking process will take over and say, hey, this dog looks none like a wild animal, this trail is well traveled, would someone really bring a crazy dog on a trail like this???

maybe it's just me....

i've met rangers on the trail in winter and summer in the ADK high peaks and have had my dog with me and asked them about situations like this and each one has said it is okay in tricky areas....but i only have brought my dog 3 times into the eastern peaks just because of this rule, anywhere outside that boundry you can bet you'll see my dog off a leash......

happy hiking :D

Rivet
10-28-2004, 07:34 AM
however I have had many run in's with large unattended dogs wearing my weekend pack on a narrow, steep ledge trails over the years. Not pleasent to say the least.

If you have a problem with a particular dog on the trail, you should talk to its the owner at that time. Or report it to a ranger if you feel it was a serious enough infraction of the rules.

Complaining about it later on a public forum won't do much good.

Dugan
10-28-2004, 07:35 AM
Yes, Bob & Geri are very sensible about dogs. They were able dog-sherpas in assisting the pooch at the left up a few of the ledges the Blueberry Ridge trail!

My view on this issue is no doubt tainted by the fact that the dogs I have owned and hiked with are too large for me to carry through tricky areas such as the one outlined. But I will say this: if an area is posted that a dog must be leashed, my dog is on a leash. Period. If I cannot get through that area with a leashed dog, then I don't go there with a dog.

I've seen too many previously dog-friendly areas become non-dog areas through the owners not obeying posted rules.

scree flinger
10-28-2004, 07:55 AM
3. In the High Peaks Wilderness Area, no person shall:
x. leave a pet unattended or fail to maintain complete control over the pet;

xi. fail to have, in their immediate possession, proof of a valid and current rabies inoculation for any dog which is accompanying them;

4. In the Eastern High Peaks Zone, no person shall fail to leash pets on trails, at primitive tent sites, at lean-to sites, at elevations above 4,000 feet, or at other areas where the public congregates, provided that this provision shall not be applicable to hunting dogs which, with a licensed hunter, are actively hunting during appropriate hunting seasons at locations other than primitive tent sites, lean-to sites, at elevations above 4,000 feet, or at other areas where the public congregates.

Yes, I have seen two instances in the high peaks where an unleashed dog attacked: a 12 year girl sitting eating lunch was jumped on and bit on the hand. The second time a large mutt dogg attacked a smaller dog that was on leash. I was glad that I had my hiking sticks to help this poor woman who was helpless trying to fight off this dog and keep control of hers. It took several stikes in it's head to stop it from attacking. No owner was around to control it.
I am not complaining, just hoping people with dogs leash them and not recommend to others to "Forget the leash rule - unsafe action!! [I do must of the time anyway]" People are sick and tired of being harrased by unleashed dogs whether they just wander up to you begging for your food or doing worse. As far as saying something to the owner of an unleashed dog, I learned my lesson the first time I mentioned that to a couple with a loose dog on a summit in the high peaks: I was sworn at, yelled at, call a SOB and felt very threatend many long miles from any law enforcement officer. I just grit my teeth and move on now when I see someone braking the leash law.

VTskier
10-28-2004, 08:02 AM
First let me say that I love dogs. I had one growing up and had one most of my adult life. However, that changed a few years back when my son was born. When he was about one year old, he tested positive for asthma, which is triggered by dogs and cats.

Now when we are out hiking (he's 6), we often (50% of the dog encounters) run into dogs off leash running up to us. My son does his best to avoid touching the dog, often hiding behide me as I try to get the dog away from us. The owner is often coming up the trail yelling that the dog is very friendly. Well, hell yes it friendly, but your uncontrolled dog can had cause serious health problems for us!

So, I don't care how you do it, but keep your dog within a few yards of you, and don't assume that everyone wants to pet and be licked by your dog. Its not a fear of the dog, but there could be serious health issues your dog may trigger.

TCD
10-28-2004, 08:03 AM
Ahhhhh! The "dog" thread appears again.

So let's review what we agree on:

Everyone seems to agree that dogs on the trail must be somehow controlled by the owners, whether it be by leash or command.

And, that seems to be about all we agree on!!!

Here are a few opinions:

Rules: Need to be followed. A lot of people have an easy way of reasoning that a particular rule they don't like, shouldn't apply to them. Dugan, you are right on the mark. Just like any other rule, a few people can easily spoil for everyone. I'm very familiar with this as a climber who studiously avoids trespassing, no matter how good the rock or ice looks, because it's a quick way to get the whole area closed to climbing. It's just like using the snowshoes, even though you think you can get there faster without them.

People are different: I love dogs. Grew up with them. Don't have one currently (actually we have CATS, if you can imagine that. I've often wondered what it would be like to bring the cats on a hike...). I am totally unafraid of dogs, and I love to meet them and play with them. I've been bitten a couple times, and I still love dogs.

But I don't presume that the way I feel is automatically the way everyone else feels. (This is important.) My hiking partner is fairly good with dogs, but sometimes has some apprehension. That's an example that shows that everyone is different. Remember that. Just because you dislike dogs, or like them, doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way.

Dogs are different: I know a lot of great dogs. 95% of dogs I meet in the woods are great. But I have also met "not so great" dogs. Some dogs, for whatever reason, are fearful of strangers. I can think of a few examples:

The dog that bit me while his owner and I were pushing a blowdown off a trail in Vermont. The owner was apologetic, but acted surprised that the dog had acted this way.

The cute little dog a guide had at the summit of Owl's Head, that was terrified of everyone, snarling and snapping and shying away. The owner insisted that the dog "never acted this way," trying to suggest that it was something about me. While I was enjoying the summit, several other parties came up the popular trail. The dog acted the same way with each of them.

The dog we met in the Saddleback - Basin col, that was so scared of strangers that the owners had to both hold it while it growled and trembled. They had to fashion a muzzle out of webbing to control it, but they said the dog was usually fine...

So once again, just like with people, don't presume that all dogs are the same. Dog dislikers, remember that most dogs are wonderful. My friends dogs are like those described by Bob and Geri; well behaved, know enough to poop of trail, etc. Dog owners, please don't be in denial. If your dog has a personality that makes it inappropriate for it to be around strangers, DON'T bring it hiking. Some dog owners have a way of believing that a dog must be great because it's their dog. Newsflash: You don't always get a good dog.

TCD

Rivet
10-28-2004, 08:08 AM
Well, there's no excuse for a dog biting someone or attacking another dog. These dogs should be left home. A mean dog on a leash is still a mean dog.

Speaking of getting threads closed ... How about those Sox? :D

ADackR
10-28-2004, 08:15 AM
Ahhhhh! The "dog" thread appears again.

So let's review what we agree on:

Everyone seems to agree that dogs on the trail must be somehow controlled by the owners, whether it be by leash or command.

And, that seems to be about all we agree on!!!

Here are a few opinions:

Rules: Need to be followed. A lot of people have an easy way of reasoning that a particular rule they don't like, shouldn't apply to them. Dugan, you are right on the mark. Just like any other rule, a few people can easily spoil for everyone. I'm very familiar with this as a climber who studiously avoids trespassing, no matter how good the rock or ice looks, because it's a quick way to get the whole area closed to climbing. It's just like using the snowshoes, even though you think you can get there faster without them.

People are different: I love dogs. Grew up with them. Don't have one currently (actually we have CATS, if you can imagine that. I've often wondered what it would be like to bring the cats on a hike...). I am totally unafraid of dogs, and I love to meet them and play with them. I've been bitten a couple times, and I still love dogs.

But I don't presume that the way I feel is automatically the way everyone else feels. (This is important.) My hiking partner is fairly good with dogs, but sometimes has some apprehension. That's an example that shows that everyone is different. Remember that. Just because you dislike dogs, or like them, doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way.

Dogs are different: I know a lot of great dogs. 95% of dogs I meet in the woods are great. But I have also met "not so great" dogs. Some dogs, for whatever reason, are fearful of strangers. I can think of a few examples:

The dog that bit me while his owner and I were pushing a blowdown off a trail in Vermont. The owner was apologetic, but acted surprised that the dog had acted this way.

The cute little dog a guide had at the summit of Owl's Head, that was terrified of everyone, snarling and snapping and shying away. The owner insisted that the dog "never acted this way," trying to suggest that it was something about me. While I was enjoying the summit, several other parties came up the popular trail. The dog acted the same way with each of them.

The dog we met in the Saddleback - Basin col, that was so scared of strangers that the owners had to both hold it while it growled and trembled. They had to fashion a muzzle out of webbing to control it, but they said the dog was usually fine...

So once again, just like with people, don't presume that all dogs are the same. Dog dislikers, remember that most dogs are wonderful. My friends dogs are like those described by Bob and Geri; well behaved, know enough to poop of trail, etc. Dog owners, please don't be in denial. If your dog has a personality that makes it inappropriate for it to be around strangers, DON'T bring it hiking. Some dog owners have a way of believing that a dog must be great because it's their dog. Newsflash: You don't always get a good dog.

TCD
so nice, very well said.

you can add another agreement to the list.....people with uncontroling or scared of others dog should be left home....

did somone say close this down

vote nader :eek:

mavs00
10-28-2004, 08:25 AM
Scree Flinger,

This is a very valiant effort to get a another "nasty" dog thread started, and keep it going with further inflaming posts, but I'm afraid timing is NOT on your side. You see, we now live in a different, more peaceful, less stressful time. For the most part people are too happy to bicker over this VERY TIRED topic. After all, the RED SOX are the WORLD CHAMPIONS. Let me say that again.

the RED SOX are the WORLD CHAMPIONS

Wait another month or two (when people come back down to earth) and you'll have a much more lively debate. Until then, ENJOY the woods, hike your own hike, and try not to worry about unleashed rabid, domestic canine devils waiting to attack you around every tree :)

//-- See peak, you can still sqeeze in a reference and stay on topic ;) --//

Grumpy
10-28-2004, 08:28 AM
Iím always amused when people jump into a discussion like this, make their remarks, predict itís going to get nasty, and then suggest shutting down the thread.

TCD seems to have a good handle on the issue, above. I have little to add.

Dugan is right.

Bob & Geri have an excellent perspective.

VTSkier added something to really think about (the asthma thing).

So far this has been a pretty civil conversation. But it could deteriorate and turn outright ugly.

Now we can close this thread.

G. :p

Remix
10-28-2004, 02:57 PM
I hope VFTT does not become the new medium for all the people who caused Mountains and Molehills to dissappear. Im not saying that anyone here is doing that, just that I hope it does not become a trend.

spencer
10-28-2004, 07:46 PM
I think we should leash the people who ask questions about dogs in the woods.

however, I also think the screen name "scree flinger" is funny....

spencer

ALGonquin Bob
10-28-2004, 08:52 PM
I love dogs, but leave it home on hikes that could be dangerous to you or the animal. In the High Peaks, "under control" means leashed -always.

This happened to me on Slide Mtn.(Catskills) just last month: As I neared the summit plateau, a small dog suddenly came down the trail, charging me at full speed. It startled me, to say the least. I have been a dog owner most of my life, but this charging animal took me by surprise and really bothered me. Immediately after I saw the dog, the owner appeared with leash in hand. He proceded to relate to me how the elderly man ahead of me was so afraid, that he "maced the dog"(as the owner put it). This dog owner thought that his dog was under control, and couldn't understand why that older man, or myself, would be upset. I held back, and just said that I didn't blame the other man for spraying the dog, if it charged him like that. When I caught up with the elderly man, he related the incident to me, explaining that he had been attacked by a dog, and now is very cautious. He explained that he didn't "mace the dog", but he did put a cloud of pepper spray between himself and the animal, as a precaution. So, all three of us were upset by this. Simply having the dog on a leash would have prevented all of it, and there would have been no incidents to be upset about! Your dog is under control until somebody walks around that corner, and your animal gets too close for somebody elses comfort. Please just be considerate of others.

nietzschescat
10-29-2004, 10:27 AM
I hike with my friend and his toy poodle (fluffy and white).Dogs are not required to be leashed in the Catskills but he always puts her on a leash when we hear someone coming on the trail.

I have taken long walks in the woods with cats. They stay pretty close once they are out of their territory and they meow a lot. :)

I did see a funny thing one time hiking. There was a woman with a pug dog in a little sling, like a baby carrier. The poodle, who was covered in mud by this point, was pretty disturbed. :)

shadowcat
10-29-2004, 02:17 PM
years ago my cat "bloomers" used to come for walks with me in the woods around my house. she was so much fun and really good. if she fell behind to stop & check stuff out; all of a sudden she'd tear up the path to catch up w/ me. some of my other cats over the years have been leash trained; shadow was awesome and walked all over like a dog. "daks" who was rescued 2 yrs ago has no desire to go back outside. after surviving that awful winter 2 yrs ago where we got a lot of snow he is a happy camper to stay inside & enjoy indoor luxuries. i totally enjoy the bond i have with my critters and if i had a dog would love to take it with me hiking. there's always going to be pros & cons & stupid, rude or otherwise misinformed people. i await the day we debate whether or not cats, children under 12, seniors or hikers wearing flip-flops should be leashed! ;)
have a great wkend!

DeadFred
10-29-2004, 03:00 PM
tick, tock...
tick, tock...
tick, tock...

Jasonst
10-29-2004, 08:25 PM
I think scree flinger brings up a good point here. Forget about the dog thing for a minute and consider how many of the people who think it's ok to "break the rules" with the pooches, yet are appauled when other hikers "illegally" camp. Just food for thought... :confused:

jbrown
11-01-2004, 03:27 PM
Well, as a dog owner and hiker I thought I should toss my 2 cents in.

I have had encounters on and off the trail when hiking/walking with my dog.
My boy has been attacked more than once by dogs that "never did that before," one was not leashed and took a hard kick in the ribs to get off.

He's a 3 year old black lab, about 100 lbs, very excitable, potentially very scary looking. Although I know that he's as harmless as a large harmless thing (no metaphor came readily to mind...) I realize that he could scare the crap out of people. One of our good friends is terrified of any dog, that's ANY dog. I have seen her tremble with fear at a shih-tzu.

If I am in an area where I cannot see a long distance up the trail, he's on the leash. If I am in an area where he is legally supposed to be on the leash, he's on the leash. Heck, I put him on the leash when we were in an area where there were huge mud wallows in the trail from ATV traffic because I didn't want him to trash my car later.

Anyway, I can see the problem with unleashed dogs heading in the same direction as the bear canister regulations. If people choose to ignore the rules, we'll just get more rules that we don't want. "Forget the leash rule..."? Not while I'm out there with my dog.

Later

Josh

Tahawus
11-02-2004, 11:47 AM
I love dogs and my kids love dogs even though we don't have any (allergies). However up until my son was about 9 his immediate reaction to any dog which appeared moving in his direction was to levitate straight into the air and to scramble/climb up the nearest object which was usually me. I have known a few adults with reactions almost as bad. Dog owners need to at the least have leashes ready to hand and be putting them on if people seem at all uncomfortable. Explaining that a dog is a good dog is only reassuring to someone who has some comfort with dogs already.

I speak as someone who has been around dogs all their life and been bit. The biting encounter I take responsibility for as someone who supposedly knows how to handle dogs. I should have recognized an overexcited dog and not encouraged it to play rough. Not everyone has the experience to deal with dogs and as I illustrated even an old hand makes mistakes.

shadowcat
11-02-2004, 01:32 PM
ya the whole dog issue is always a debate. just sunday we were hiking up twin in the catskills and some folks were coming down. all of a sudden this dog comes running down the trail behind them & passes them. it caught them off guard & one of the hikers slipped (lots of leaves covering lots of loose rocks) & they almost wiped out. a bit later the owners caught up to the dog - totally oblivious to what happened. believe me, i do understand why folks like to take their dogs with but being realistic, i just see too many down sides to it. if you don't have to leash them, you have to make sure they aren't romping onto fragile pieces of land, chasing wildlife, crapping on the trail or scarring other hikers. if they are leashed, seems like you'll spend 1/2 your energy just hanging onto them and keeping them under control. how the heck you hike while holding onto a leash trying to keep your dog from wanting to run faster than you can move and use hiking poles and navigate rocks & climbing, icy conditions etc is beyond me. then there's concerns such as the rough ground tearing up the pads on their feet, frostbite or ticks/lyme disease etc etc etc. just seems like too many variables to worry about. i don't know, like i said i understand the bond we have with our critters and i know the animals love to be outdoors but maybe these hiking trails aren't the best place for this experience? certainly there's got to be any number of other places to take pets for some fun & exercise outdoors? please, like i said i understand; just trying to be realistic and fair.

Jasonst
11-02-2004, 02:52 PM
if you don't have to leash them, you have to make sure they aren't romping onto fragile pieces of land,

I have hiked many a mile and have yet to discover one of these "fragile pieces of land" Someone help me out here... Where in the Whites would there be one of these? Perhaps the Alpine Garden?

ADackR
11-02-2004, 02:56 PM
shadowcat,

you'd be amazed at what an animal (dog) can do after hiking for sometime... just as a human adjusts to hiking in different conditions and environments a dog can adjust faster... over time, if you take a dog out in all elements their pads, coat and skills improve to a point where they can get through just about anything...

sure it takes some worrying in the begining but that goes away with time and proper training...

i don't know, like i said i understand the bond we have with our critters and i know the animals love to be outdoors but maybe these hiking trails aren't the best place for this experience? certainly there's got to be any number of other places to take pets for some fun & exercise outdoors? please, like i said i understand; just trying to be realistic and fair.

don't take this the wrong way but this is funny because if your standard isn't met and it's ruined by an animal on the trail, then those animals and owners need to find a new outlet...when in actuality anyone is entitled to be on that trail..

it's almost to the double standard of snowmobiles in the forrests....sure they pay for using those machines in the forrests and are intitled too BUT so are we and we want to use the trails and NOT have those machines around...

it's comical really, to think that State land is out there for everyone's use but in reality that use is held to a double standard...

in no way do i intend this to be a pissing match... i was just stating somthing that i have... an opinion...

happy hiking...

jade
11-02-2004, 02:58 PM
Without Lassie, my childhood would have been a miserable disaster. June never insisted we leash Lassie, ever.

Please stop. I can't take it any more.

Sincerely, Timmy

shadowcat
11-03-2004, 10:15 AM
me: "if you don't have to leash them, you have to make sure they aren't romping onto fragile pieces of land...."

you:"I have hiked many a mile and have yet to discover one of these "fragile pieces of land" Someone help me out here... Where in the Whites would there be one of these? Perhaps the Alpine Garden?" jasonst: i surprised you'd say something like that! :(

i thought this might be a valid point & one i don't recall seeing brought up in regards to letting dogs unleashed while hiking. also & i apologize, but i was always under the impression, well not impression so much but what i've been told by rangers, for example on marcy, people on this site & from reading about the daks (& other areas) that the reason WE are supposed to stay on the trails and to do everything possible to keep them from widening or going off into other directions is because we are supposed to be protecting the "fragile" environment along the way. so are you saying i've been misinformed all this time and it's ok to just tromp wherever we want now? us, dogs, kids whoever??? are you saying the whites don't have any type of rules about maintaining & protecting its environment? my reference was based on my understanding of the daks and catskills but i "assumed" most places had similar rules of thumb. sometimes i forget that others read these posts that aren't from my area so i don't always think about that when discussing certain topics - i reference what i am familiar with. geez

you: "because if your standard isn't met and it's ruined by an animal on the trail, then those animals and owners need to find a new outlet...when in actuality anyone is entitled to be on that trail.. "

First, I don't recall saying anything about "my standards". and i certainly never said anything about anyone meeting them! I was just trying to generalize about the topic of discussion & trying to come up with ideas on it. i am one of the biggest animal advocates out there & spend a lot of my free time doing what i can on thier behalf. truth be told if my "standards" were met 1/2 the folks on this planet would be outta here and animals would rock the world! and, i've always said that if i had a dog i'd probably have it out there with me too. see, the thing you don't get is that i am willing to try to see all sides of the issue, not just mine.
and you can't tell me in total honesty it isn't more work to take a dog hiking & keep it leashed then not, & that's why you like to let them run loose. it's easier for you & more fun for them! come on! be honest... who really wants to hang onto that leash, with a full pack on your back, hiking poles in hand, traversing over rocks, scree, loose dirt, over logs, thru mud , over streams, up hills, down steep grades, etc etc etc -- & try to hang onto a dog's leash & keep it under control all at the same time?
so don't be so hard on me - i'm the one going "oh lookit the cute cuddlie critter!"

Jasonst
11-03-2004, 10:54 AM
i thought this might be a valid point & one i don't recall seeing brought up in regards to letting dogs unleashed while hiking. also & i apologize, but i was always under the impression, well not impression so much but what i've been told by rangers, for example on marcy, people on this site & from reading about the daks (& other areas) that the reason WE are supposed to stay on the trails and to do everything possible to keep them from widening or going off into other directions is because we are supposed to be protecting the "fragile" environment along the way. so are you saying i've been misinformed all this time and it's ok to just tromp wherever we want now? us, dogs, kids whoever??? are you saying the whites don't have any type of rules about maintaining & protecting its environment? my reference was based on my understanding of the daks and catskills but i "assumed" most places had similar rules of thumb. sometimes i forget that others read these posts that aren't from my area so i don't always think about that when discussing certain topics - i reference what i am familiar with. geez



Whoa! easy! Some areas are more "fragile" than others. That was my question.

shadowcat
11-03-2004, 11:36 AM
i guess it was the way you phrased it:
"I have hiked many a mile and have yet to discover one of these "fragile pieces of land" Someone help me out here... Where in the Whites would there be one of these? Perhaps the Alpine Garden?"

i have not hiked in the whites maybe it's just a lot of open rock? i just know that in the daks, especially at higher elevations they are very concerned about taking care of where we step and to avoid certain areas.
anyway, you know how it is when you get into one of these types of discussions & i should know better. no matter how hard you try to stay neutral or see both sides or be careful how you put things, a debate can get pulled out of anything. i guess sometimes i just think we all are guilty of being jaded and not being totally honest about why we chose to do the things we do.

David Metsky
11-03-2004, 11:47 AM
Whoa! easy! Some areas are more "fragile" than others. That was my question.
I would keep dogs on trail everywhere above treeline in the Whites. Unless you can figure a way to have them stay only on rocks. ;)

-dave-

ADackR
11-03-2004, 11:54 AM
i don't know, like i said i understand the bond we have with our critters and i know the animals love to be outdoors but maybe these hiking trails aren't the best place for this experience? certainly there's got to be any number of other places to take pets for some fun & exercise outdoors? please, like i said i understand; just trying to be realistic and fair.

my assumption caome from you're posting and at the end when you stated the above...

i then chose to pair it with the thinking of snowmobiles in the forrest and how similar peoples thoughts are with that subject....

i also look at both sides of the arguement, just as you say you do... but with a statement like this your only equateing yourself to the other side where they will say the rule doesn't apply to them and they think you should be hiking somewhere else.

look, i have stated before that i don't bring my dog the eastern high peaks during the summer months(once in winter actually). this is the only area that i know of that has such a leash rule.... i take my dog specifically to areas where a rule does not exist and allow her to roam freely.....however, i do leash her up when small children are around. i understand where the parent is coming from in this situation....but more often then not i've come accross people on the trail that give the deadliest looks once a dog is seen... i often just laugh (too myself) because i feel that a person is not open to be willing to understand my side, by having my dog on the trail..

that's it...

Remix
11-03-2004, 01:49 PM
IMHO, nobody would (or should) be complaining if all dogs were outfitted with a cask of brandy around their neck. A brandy near the summit is always welcomed. Also, on the trail! And if the hapless owner is nowhere in sight, then maybe a second brandy!

:P

ADackR
11-03-2004, 03:32 PM
Perhaps people should be banned from the trails and the dogs (and the plethora of other wildlife) should be allowed to roam free. ;)


so nice, but what will happen to the politicains(sp?) and making rules like leash laws :D

also, i like you're signature :eek:

DeadFred
11-03-2004, 03:44 PM
I propose that we leash politicians and let the animals roam free. Wait a minute...the politicians are animals too. :D ;)

shadowcat
11-03-2004, 04:18 PM
is everyone having a bad day or something? post-election syndrome? wow! i guess i need to be even more careful how i say things. here i thought i was trying to bring some more ideas to the table and instead you'd think i wanted to start a war. as one personal note to me just said regarding my post on this issue (which i didn't start) : "It now only serves to anger and divide people. Can't you agree to disagree and feel comfortable with your view? Do you have anything positive to share? Can we please stop this negative banter? "
i'd like to respond to that openly because it matters to me that we are all on the same page here, because if we aren't then i shouldn't even be on this site:
first, half the fun is having differences of opinions. if everyone agreed the threads would be pretty darn dull. i don't mind if someone disagrees with me and i'm certainly not threatened by it. and if i wasn't comfortable with my views, i sit here like a bump on a log & not say a word.
and it's insulting to call my post or anyone's "negative banter" - or ask if i "have anything positive to share" everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you read my post you'd know i wasn't trying be negative! yes, the dog thing has been done over & over, but sometimes a new person doesn't realize that, starts a new thread & opens up the flood gates all over again. you can't stop that.
lastly: we've had all kinds of discussions heated or otherwise but i have never felt that anyone really got that angry or divided & in the end we are all still here the next day, carrying on. i would hate to think that anything i said would ever hurt or anger anyone on this site because that is never my intention. i like to see both sides if possible and sometimes i'm right and sometimes i'm not. no biggy

DeadFred
11-03-2004, 04:22 PM
shadowcat...

No, no, no. Please...I was only trying to bring levity to an issue that I don't like to participate in anymore. This issue has good points on both sides. So speaking for me and me only (well, Dakota, too) my post was only meant to joke around and intentionally try to make light of the issue. I'm sorry if you took my comment the wrong way, it was only meant to poke fun at BOTH sides.

BTW, I have seen this issue brought up for a couple years now and it ALWAYS turns bad. I think you can see now how that can happen, even though you tried to bring thoughtful dialogue into the thread, it ALWAYS goes sour.

shadowcat
11-03-2004, 05:10 PM
i was referring to a personal note someone sent to me on my home email. nothing you said. i don't understand tho why this topic always has to get so icky. it does seem to be one topic that gets real personal. i suppose in a way, it's a good sign - showing how protective we are of our animal friends and anything that might threaten their happiness is a personal attack on the owner who is only trying to defend them? i know how i am about my cats so i do understand. now if i were to take cloe a 350# baby bengal tiger hiking w/ me will she have to be leashed? :)

Barry Sr
11-03-2004, 06:16 PM
Without Lassie, my childhood would have been a miserable disaster. June never insisted we leash Lassie, ever.

Please stop. I can't take it any more.

Sincerely, Timmy

If that was Lassie leading the way up tully, then he must of been having a bad hair day. :p

It was the perfect example of doggy harmony, yours roaming free but unobtrusive and mine leashed and learning. The only complaint was from your dog wanting to be left alone that early by an over friendly pup.

I would go with your dog anywhere.

hillman1
11-03-2004, 06:21 PM
I'm thinking we can get ten pages if we really try...I just want to add--I am a dog lover. I almost went to jail for it, but thats another story for somewhere else on the net. But another reason my dog does not come to the high peaks is that he will defacate anywhere. Definitely in the middle of the trail, or on arctic plants above treeline. So he gets to stay home while I go hiking most of the time. He might do the NPT this spring with me, but I think he should be able to drop a load just about anywhere out there with out anyone really noticing, and he can run free and get in touch with his inner puppy. I bet we can get this thread locked if we really try. :)

jade
11-03-2004, 06:27 PM
BarrySr......as I reminded Carmen later in the day, she used to be a crazy pup jumping all over, shall we say more mature dogs. She agreed that she would like to go hiking again with the big guy in the kilt and his handsome dog, Loki. She would like to remind you to bring your allergy meds the next time...:D

ADackR
11-04-2004, 07:00 AM
is everyone having a bad day or something? post-election syndrome? wow! i guess i need to be even more careful how i say things. here i thought i was trying to bring some more ideas to the table and instead you'd think i wanted to start a war. as one personal note to me just said regarding my post on this issue (which i didn't start) : "It now only serves to anger and divide people. Can't you agree to disagree and feel comfortable with your view? Do you have anything positive to share? Can we please stop this negative banter? "
i'd like to respond to that openly because it matters to me that we are all on the same page here, because if we aren't then i shouldn't even be on this site:
first, half the fun is having differences of opinions. if everyone agreed the threads would be pretty darn dull. i don't mind if someone disagrees with me and i'm certainly not threatened by it. and if i wasn't comfortable with my views, i sit here like a bump on a log & not say a word.
and it's insulting to call my post or anyone's "negative banter" - or ask if i "have anything positive to share" everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you read my post you'd know i wasn't trying be negative! yes, the dog thing has been done over & over, but sometimes a new person doesn't realize that, starts a new thread & opens up the flood gates all over again. you can't stop that.
lastly: we've had all kinds of discussions heated or otherwise but i have never felt that anyone really got that angry or divided & in the end we are all still here the next day, carrying on. i would hate to think that anything i said would ever hurt or anger anyone on this site because that is never my intention. i like to see both sides if possible and sometimes i'm right and sometimes i'm not. no biggy


i have no ill towards you or anyone that posts their opinions... i think it's great to be able to share points of view that others may not agree with.... it's a form of comunication and really it helps people think.....

from you're postings i started to take it in another direction.... i was bringing out the snowmobile contradiction...that one will surely be jsut as crazy as the dog threads get....

im also glad that this thread is still going, it brings people out and also breaks up the monotomy around here....

happy hiking...

Dugan
11-04-2004, 07:43 AM
There's an answer for dogs that defecate anywhere. Carry bags. Pack it in, pack it out. Secondly, for urination (or should that be firstly?), whether it's dog management via leash or voice, don't let them go near water sources or other sensitive areas.

As far as hiking on leash, it doesn't seem to hamper either Dugan or me. And a leash is just as much safety for your dog as for that of others. If they're on lead, there's no worries about running into old trap lines, wells, barbed wire, porcupines, etc.

I'd hike again with Carmen any day, Jade. She's one of the best mannered hiker-dogs I've had the pleasure of meeting. Barry, I think you're giving Loki a good start too, he's very good for a pup.

DeadFred
11-04-2004, 08:56 AM
Thanks Shadowcat...

I figured you were speaking to one or two particluar posts, but I just wanted to make sure you took mine the right way. :D

Now, I'm outta here...mush, doggies, mush!

mavs00
11-05-2004, 06:06 AM
You see, we now live in a different, more peaceful, less stressful time. For the most part people are too happy to bicker over this VERY TIRED topic.......................

Wait another month or two (when people come back down to earth) and you'll have a much more lively debate.

I stand corrected :(