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iagreewithjamie
09-10-2013, 08:19 AM
Hi all,
I recently posted this in another forum, and it was suggested I post here as well since this is a topic that comes up often: what's up with the Mt Cabot trail?

I hiked Mt Cabot as my #48 finish over Labor Day weekend. In hopes that I could bag this one using the entire Mt Cabot trail, I called up Paul Crane to ask his permission to use the trail. He is the landowner who closed the lower portion of the Mt Cabot trail. Since he was very candid with me on the phone, me being a total stranger, I'll assume that he would have no objection to me sharing this info with you.

Crane owns a ton of land in NH and Maine. He has given hundreds of acres (both voluntarily and via imminent domain) for public access. For years, he had given a public right-of-way across his land to use the Mt Cabot trail. Crane is also a huge snowmobile enthusiast... somuchso that he owns and operates a snowmobile museum in Lancaster. This enthusiasm often leads Mr Crane into projects that involve constructing public snowmobile trails, even at his own personal expense.

So here's where the clash between Crane and the AMC started, and why the trail is now closed. Mr. Crane wants to build a snowmobile trail through Willard Notch to York Pond. In order to do this, he needs permission from the organization that manages that particular area of the national forest... in this case, the AMC. He offered to give the AMC 4 miles of land so that they would fully own the Mt Cabot trail, as well as construct a parking lot at the trail head; in exchange, he wanted permission to build the snowmobile trail with his own funds, then donate it to the town. The AMC rejected his offer, and told him that the area in question was to be reserved for foot traffic and x-skiers. In response, he rejected the public right-of-way across his land, and closed the portion of the trail that goes over his land. There's been much debate on this board as to whether that's legal, but since the AMC hasn't chosen this as a battle they'd like to fight, the closing has been permanent for the last few years.

The negotiation still continues. The AMC has offered Crane money for the land, but he is firm that the only way he'll yield on this issue is if he's allowed to build the Willard Notch snowmobile trail. Meanwhile, he thanked me for asking him for permission, but politely refused my access to the trail. He stated that if I used it, I'd post pictures and tell everyone how I went up, then everyone would be calling him. I couldn't argue with that - he's was correct in that regard. He mentioned that he monitors activity on that trail often, and doesn't hesitate to make unpleasant acquaintances with trespassers. One exception: every Easter, he allows the boy scouts to go up and mount a cross at the cabin.

I found Mr Crane to be very reasonable, and actually pretty nice. I understand his position. He loves snowmobiles, and wants to make Willard Notch more multi-use so he can explore his love of snowmobiles there as well. It's not that he's closing the trail to be ornery, but rather, it's the best leverage he has to fight for something he believes in.

I don't live in the area, nor do I hike in Willard Notch... so I don't really feel entitled to formulate an opinion on the matter. However, if access to the Mt Cabot trail is something you feel passionately about, you can always write to your chapter of the AMC to support Mr Crane's request for a snowmobile trail. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only compromise: Willard Notch will be multi-use and the Mt Cabot trail will be belong to the AMC... or the current standoff will continue.

RoySwkr
09-10-2013, 09:49 AM
Thank you for reporting Mr. Crane's viewpoint, which as near as I can tell is wishful thinking with little basis in law.


For years, he had given a public right-of-way across his land to use the Mt Cabot trail.
According to the deeds, there was an existing r-o-w across his land when he bought it which he has not attempted to extinguish by legal means but only by intimidating users. He made a man owning a cabin farther up the road go to court to prove his legal access to the cabin.

Note that the AMC has no control over a potential snowmobile trail on USFS lands, or a campground and subdivision proposed for his land which were denied by the town so he doesn't get along with town officials either.

The AMC doesn't really care about the Mt Cabot Trail and doesn't want to irritate North Country residents, and the USFS is under a nationwide order not to assert r-o-w claims, so it will take action by others to resolve this issue. In the meantime, people wishing to avoid confrontation should avoid this trail.

peakbagger
09-10-2013, 10:06 AM
Roy beat me to it but this still applies

This is basically the story I have heard and its nice of you to have contacted him directly for confirmation. I am a bit confused on one point, you reference AMC not the WMNF and possibly he did in the conversation.

My confusion is that the land in question he wants to access is the WMNF, AMC does not own land in that area. WMNF is the agency that would have to approve the installation of the trail over their land and my understanding is that the current classification for this area is dispersed non motorized recreational (hiking/cross country) and timber management so a snow machine trail is not allowed under the current permit. If he is under the impression that AMC can make policy for the WMNF that is an error but given the background of this I expect he is well aware of the difference as this has been an issue for at least one and possibly two re-permitting cycles. AMC is generally involved with the re-permitting effort for the WMNF and could come out publically for this project as anyone who attends the public input sessions also could. AMC has elected, like the WMNF to remove reference to this trail from the guides due to landowner controversy and the potential impact to other trailheads located on private property. Given the importance of maintaining a north south wildlife corridor through the kilkenny range, I don't see it likely that the WMNF is going to be interested in allowing a motorized recreational trail to bisect this area especially given the reported shaky legal standing of the landowner. One thing the federal government is good at is just waiting it out until the owner in question goes away.

Where it gets sticky is that deeds for large timber holdings are not as succinct as homeowners deeds. Frequently the deeds have numerous prescriptive rights that bestow rights to other parties to access the lands for various purposes. Even more frequently, the deed is a "quit claim", where one individual transfers whatever rights they have to another party. In many cases quit claim deeds may not even state that others have prior rights. I have run into quit claim deeds that sold rights to land that the guarantee didn't even own. Some landowners new to this type of ownership are sometimes surprised when an adjacent landowner reopens what is currently a path on their land to access a timber cut on an adjacent lot. I believe someone from VFTT has actually accessed the deeds in question (possibly Roy) and there appears to be sufficient WMNF rights that the issue of being able to close the route could be challenged. The reason it hasn't is that the WMNF does not want to set a precedent that could adversely impact other trailheads on private property. Unlike private property, an individual can never gain prescriptive rights to federal land so even though the landowner has been asserting his perceived rights for years, he never gains legitimacy which can occur with private land . To further confuse the issue, the landowners at the former trailhead appear to have been actively encouraging hikers to use this route since the closure.

iagreewithjamie
09-10-2013, 11:26 AM
Both valid points. Whether or not he needs the AMC's blessing is beyond my legal expertise. I do know that the AMC manages that section of the national forest, but as for who would grant the legal standing needed to modify the land beyond its documented use is outside of my wheelhouse.

He was very explicit that it was the AMC who had fought him on this issue, so I made the assumption that it was their decision as to whether or not to permit the snowmobile trail.

peakbagger
09-10-2013, 12:05 PM
Darn that's depressing, AMC sure doesn't have any responsibility for managing any piece of the national forest and therefore he isn't even fighting the right battle.

Red Oak
09-10-2013, 12:16 PM
Peakbagger thank you for your wise comments.Iagree thanks for the legwork on getting the info.The whole of issue of legal wrangling is as old as n.h. herself.I manage a very small private wetlands area in southern nh in which the town has a legal right to get into to fix issues with pond flooding,etc.That info was so long ago put on the original deed that most town employees do not even know they can request passage onto the private property.I have often informed the town to this right of passage to help with flooding and ponding issues.Recently they used the road for some pond concrete work.The private contractor left a huge jumbled concrete mess on the property.With one pleasant phone call I got the issue fixed.Point here is that in complex landownership issues things will go better if everyone tries to help each other and not fight tooth and nail.In short I help the town with access and they will help with my goal of long term land conservation.
It seems a very good question as to if a snowmobile path through willard notch will really damage the area in terms of animal migration or conservation wise? I personally may not mind a trail I could hike on in winter into such a amazing area.It may be prudent to not bother locals up north too much about this trailhead as to keep relations between hikers and them cordial.just my 2 cents.

David Metsky
09-10-2013, 02:17 PM
He was very explicit that it was the AMC who had fought him on this issue, so I made the assumption that it was their decision as to whether or not to permit the snowmobile trail.
His track record of accuracy and reasonableness is not well established.

iagreewithjamie
09-10-2013, 02:57 PM
His track record of accuracy and reasonableness is not well established.

This could be true. There was some commentary in the conversation about how much flack hunters get for wanting to build hunting camps while the AMC is allowed to build palaces in the notches all tax-free. I think his general opinion is that the AMC uses its deep pockets and influence to get what it wants where it wants, at the expense of the locals being able to use their land as they see fit. And ya know, it's not just Crane. I've heard from quite a few North Country folk who despise the AMC... and I mean literally despise them. Not the hikers... just the organization. The AMC doesn't seem to be very popular in the North, and I think alot of it has to do with building tourist attractions in wilderness areas under the auspices of being an environmental group. I spoke with one local North Country resident a couple of years ago - almost every other sentence was how the Randolph Mountain club gets it right, while the AMC is just a bunch of Boston yuppies yadda yadda. Regardless, the AMC does make a very easy straw man.

Tom_Murphy
09-10-2013, 03:28 PM
This could be true. There was some commentary in the conversation about how much flack hunters get for wanting to build hunting camps while the AMC is allowed to build palaces in the notches all tax-free. I think his general opinion is that the AMC uses its deep pockets and influence to get what it wants where it wants, at the expense of the locals being able to use their land as they see fit. And ya know, it's not just Crane. I've heard from quite a few North Country folk who despise the AMC... and I mean literally despise them. Not the hikers... just the organization. The AMC doesn't seem to be very popular in the North, and I think alot of it has to do with building tourist attractions in wilderness areas under the auspices of being an environmental group. I spoke with one local North Country resident a couple of years ago - almost every other sentence was how the Randolph Mountain club gets it right, while the AMC is just a bunch of Boston yuppies yadda yadda. Regardless, the AMC does make a very easy straw man.

The Highland Center probably does steal guests and money from local hotels, the huts don't.

The RMC is perceived to being local and the AMC perceived as not being local. Neither is 100% true.

"AMC uses its deep pockets and influence to get what it wants where it wants, at the expense of the locals being able to use their land as they see fit." hahaha, I don't know where to begin. Sad that this is how he views it.

Thanks for starting this thread, I have often wondered about the back story.

David Metsky
09-10-2013, 03:37 PM
Since the AMC has pretty much nothing to do with the situation, I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to Mt Cabot. This guy has a land dispute with the USFS who basically wants nothing to do with him.

The AMC story in the north country is multi-layered and full of pros and cons. While this guy may think his dispute is with the AMC and is somehow tied to them he's barking up the wrong tree. Like I said, he's got a poor track record of being accurate or reasonable, and perhaps I should add, correct.

If you'd like to start a thread about the impact of the AMC (pro and con) in the North Country please feel free to do so. There have been many threads on the subject that will give you some background into the long history of the club and the interactions with folks up north (and down south, and out west) but feel free to start a new thread with some new perspective.

Fisher Cat
09-10-2013, 03:44 PM
Thanks for starting this thread, I have often wondered about the back story.

Having grown up in Coos, attending school with multiple members of the Crane family (some Peter's), there is more to the 'back story'. While not going into particulars, because I am only one voice perhaps seen as relating/interpreting events, there were some incidents that occurred off the trail corridor on private property, that I would admit, would get me irate as well if it were mine.

However, on the land we owned, and parts of which we even leased with the USFS/WMNF, I found that there is nothing that cannot be worked out in the interests of the public good, including keeping a trail corridor open for all.

dug
09-10-2013, 03:52 PM
I think the biggest reason (my opinion) as to why nobody is working on a resolution is there is no need to. There is a perfectly fine way to climb that hill, so let's just use it. I personally don't want to see anybody wasting any time, effort, or money on this.

peakbagger
09-10-2013, 04:12 PM
When the local scouts blazed the Kilkenny ridge trail, the plan was to shut down most of the access to the ridge line to make it more "wild" for the folks who hiked the ridge trail. This was the reason Bunnel Notch trail and York Pond trail were not maintained for many years and got such a poor reputation. I think the intent was to leave Mt Cabot Trail but realistically it makes far more sense to have the trails access the ridge from the York Pond area. In my opinion the biggest reason the westerly approach was so popular was that its about an hour closer to Boston and avoids Berlin which was quite a shock to most folks when it was in operation. The RT 110 relocation bids were opened recently and by 2015, at least part of the drvie through Berlin will be a lot easier (but still an hours extra drive from Mass).

iagreewithjamie
09-10-2013, 04:33 PM
My reasoning for wanting to use the Cabot trail was that I had some friends who wanted to go who aren't quite in the 9 mile range. The 7 mile-ish way up Cabot sounded more appealing to them. That was my fault for not finishing on an easier mountain closer to Boston. Regardless, the torrential downpour kept them away anyhow.

I actually found the Bunnell Notch trail to be a nice hike. It was very very muddy... but nice. And quiet.

One thing I have wondered... is there anything to keep Mr Crane from profiteering off of us hikers? Or anyone for that matter? Is someone who owns the land at a trailhead in a national forest entitled to, say, build a parking lot and charge 3 bucks to park there?

TJsName
09-10-2013, 04:37 PM
One thing I have wondered... is there anything to keep Mr Crane from profiteering off of us hikers? Or anyone for that matter? Is someone who owns the land at a trailhead in a national forest entitled to, say, build a parking lot and charge 3 bucks to park there?

...or the owners of some businesses in Berlin to kick him a few bucks to keep it closed? :)

peakbagger
09-10-2013, 05:15 PM
The folks who owned the store at the Piper trail up Mt Chocorua used to charge for parking and did a pretty good business . At some point the FS built a parking lot and the store closed soon thereafter. Not sure I know of any other spots in the whites like that.

TJsName
09-10-2013, 05:51 PM
The folks who owned the store at the Piper trail up Mt Chocorua used to charge for parking and did a pretty good business . At some point the FS built a parking lot and the store closed soon thereafter. Not sure I know of any other spots in the whites like that.

Lowe's Store charges for parking (2 bucks/night I think) on Rt. 2.

bikehikeskifish
09-10-2013, 06:10 PM
It's an hour closer (each way) for almost everyone... except you, Peakbagger ;) It also makes for a reasonable trip to hike Cabot and Waumbek in the same day.

Tim

RoySwkr
09-10-2013, 07:35 PM
One thing I have wondered... is there anything to keep Mr Crane from profiteering off of us hikers? Or anyone for that matter? Is someone who owns the land at a trailhead in a national forest entitled to, say, build a parking lot and charge 3 bucks to park there?
At least 3 places do/have charged to park - Piper Trail, Lowes Store, cog railway

However Mr. Crane does not own the land people presently park on or else he could just have the cars towed - that guy doesn't mind hikers and preferred having a trail sign to being woke up in the morning asking if the trail starts here. Perhaps Mr. Crane could remove the first gate and allow parking on his land higher up for a fee.

Raymond
09-11-2013, 01:36 AM
I paid $2.50 to park at the Seven Dwarfs Motel, too, but that and Lowe’s aren’t really trail heads, they’re just places near enough to trails to be convenient for some hikers. They weren’t built with trail access in mind, though, as far as I know.

I think when we climbed Mount Clay back in 1996 we parked in the Cog lot and didn’t pay anything, but maybe there was no charge back then, or maybe we just got away with it without knowing we had.

Raymond
09-11-2013, 01:39 AM
What was the story behind the closure of the old McCrillis Path in Whiteface Intervale? I hiked the new route on Friday and saw the extension of the road or driveway, where the earlier route went, but don’t know its history.

dug
09-11-2013, 07:20 AM
It's an hour closer (each way) for almost everyone... except you, Peakbagger ;) It also makes for a reasonable trip to hike Cabot and Waumbek in the same day.

Tim

Doesn't seem a valid reason. Sure, it's shorter. But if that was the criteria, then we should be looking to close Mt. Kinsman Trail, anything in the Wild River area, Howker Trail etc. And, if you want to do two peaks, good on ya', but take the longer route and drive more. Still seems like a waste of time and energy to me for a non-essential matter.

Grey J
09-11-2013, 08:16 AM
Lowe's Store charges for parking (2 bucks/night I think) on Rt. 2.

I parked at Lowes on 8/12 and the charge is just $1 per day. It is across the street from and maybe 100 yds from the trailhead so its pretty convenient.

shamples
09-11-2013, 08:30 AM
Interesting read

Thanks for inquiring more about this

I too have always wondered what the actual back story to that was.

That said, I loved the Bunnell Notch Loop with Unknown Pond to bag Cabot and the Horn

RoySwkr
09-11-2013, 09:42 AM
Doesn't seem a valid reason. Sure, it's shorter. But if that was the criteria, then we should be looking to close Mt. Kinsman Trail, anything in the Wild River area, Howker Trail etc. And, if you want to do two peaks, good on ya', but take the longer route and drive more. Still seems like a waste of time and energy to me for a non-essential matter.
Note there is a hidden agenda here that Dug & I have sparred over in the past - he has connections to some trailhead landowners. His opinion is that by asserting rights to pass over private property you offend all private property owners. My opinion is that by allowing people to assert rights to property they may not own by violence you just encourage that behavior by others and may become unable to use trails the public has a clear right to. If Mr. Crane truly believes that he has the right to prohibit passage let him prove that in a court of law rather than by intimidating people - that he hasn't done so may indicate his true belief in the validity of his claims.

iagreewithjamie
09-11-2013, 11:29 AM
that he hasn't done so may indicate his true belief in the validity of his claims.

The crux of the matter. Well said, Roy.

dug
09-11-2013, 11:52 AM
Yes Roy, we have battled, and my tune has changed some. I don't agree with what he's doing, but only that (right or wrong) many look at him as the good guy, and the distrust of all people down-country. My only point, at this stage, is...why bother? It seems wasteful at this stage to fight an unnecessary battle for a little hill with other access. The FS sees it as a battle not worth fighting...so let's move on.

surf88
09-11-2013, 12:13 PM
I've never stopped using the Mount Cabot Trail from heaths gate and have used it 10 of the 11 times I climbed Cabot. I never got to meet Mr. Crane but have spoken to his neighbors that live next to the old gate. They didnt seem to like mr crane much and welcomed me to park on there property to use the trail.

Also, check out these Plan on the Coos registry of deeds site: follow the link and look up plan #3058 The surveying on this plan orderd by mr Crane clearly maps the Cabot Trail. http://nhdeeds.com/coos/CoDisclaimer.html

I'm curious if the Rosa Parks approach (Tresspassing, law enforcement getting involved and getting arrested, or better yet not arrested)would bring the conflict the legal forum that is needed to resolove whether he can close the right away or not? Anyone willing to get arrested? :rolleyes:

Tom_Murphy
09-11-2013, 12:32 PM
I'm curious if the Rosa Parks approach (Tresspassing and getting arrested)would bring the conflict the legal forum that is needed to resolove whether he can close the right away or not? Anyone willing to get arrested? Anyone willing to get arrested? :rolleyes:

Is Mr Crane related to Mr. Bird?

NHClimber
09-11-2013, 03:51 PM
that he hasn't done so may indicate his true belief in the validity of his claims

Not necessarily. Apparently he has not had to so why would he waste time and money in court. As surf notes, only way to force the issue is to "trespass" and see whether there is a public ROW/easement or not. If people have a beef with Mr. Crane they should confront him. Problem is no one wants to spend the time and money doing that (can't blame them) and as such there is a stalemate.

erugs
09-12-2013, 10:05 AM
I, too, have used the Mt. Cabot Trail since the closure. I haven't had any contact with Mr. Crane but going that way has made me feel uncomfortable. It's a shame, because I think that it is nice trail. Not only that, look at the effort that went into creating it in the first place. I, for one, dislike seeing closures but especially questionable ones like this. I think that if anyone has a right to complain, it is the folk who live where hikers would park. On the other hand, I was excited to read about the new trail access to hikers up Mittersill. The Kinsman Ridge Trail up to Canon is a disgrace of a trail, the way it has been allowed to erode.

sierra
09-12-2013, 10:37 AM
This is all news to me. I have not done Cabot since the 80's when I first did the 4k's. Now, my dog is doing the list, so I guess I have to go via Bunnel notch which to be honest, have know idea where it is or what to expect. I will find out and go that way, Im not about to go where Im not wanted.

peakbagger
09-12-2013, 12:10 PM
Bunnel notch approaches the mountain from the East side from the York Pond fish Hatchery. It had a pretty poor reputation for several years as the FS was planning to close it and did not allow maintenance. The worst section was relocated about 10 to 15 years ago but it still follows a brook most of the way up and can be muddy. If the dog likes water and you don't mind a bit of mud it may be a better fit. It eventually joins the Mt Cabot trail at the base of the climb up the mountain from the notch.

TEO
09-12-2013, 02:44 PM
My opinion is that by allowing people to assert rights to property they may not own by violence you just encourage that behavior by others and may become unable to use trails the public has a clear right to. If Mr. Crane truly believes that he has the right to prohibit passage let him prove that in a court of law rather than by intimidating people - that he hasn't done so may indicate his true belief in the validity of his claims.

Well said, Roy.

rocket21
09-13-2013, 06:22 AM
The FS sees it as a battle not worth fighting...so let's move on.
The Forest Service isn't one to tear down bridges...oops, wrong saying...

sierra
09-13-2013, 02:49 PM
Bunnel notch approaches the mountain from the East side from the York Pond fish Hatchery. It had a pretty poor reputation for several years as the FS was planning to close it and did not allow maintenance. The worst section was relocated about 10 to 15 years ago but it still follows a brook most of the way up and can be muddy. If the dog likes water and you don't mind a bit of mud it may be a better fit. It eventually joins the Mt Cabot trail at the base of the climb up the mountain from the notch.

Hey thanks for the tip, my dog loves water and mud for that matter!

Barkingcat
09-13-2013, 04:21 PM
Darn that's depressing, AMC sure doesn't have any responsibility for managing any piece of the national forest and therefore he isn't even fighting the right battle.

That is correct.

TJsName
09-13-2013, 06:55 PM
This is all news to me. I have not done Cabot since the 80's when I first did the 4k's. Now, my dog is doing the list, so I guess I have to go via Bunnel notch which to be honest, have know idea where it is or what to expect. I will find out and go that way, Im not about to go where Im not wanted.

The Bunnel Notch route has improved in the time I've hiked it, and the loop with the Horn is nice. The issue is really with peak baggers that need that peak but don't want to drive 2 extra hours to get the peak. It would be kind of like having to do the Carters from 113 instead of 16 in terms of convenience.

natron
09-14-2013, 07:22 AM
hour closer to Boston and avoids Berlin which was quite a shock to most folks when it was in operation.(but still an hours extra drive from Mass).

what was the shock? a running mill town? I drive thru rumford, me and livermore falls, me quite often and I am not shocked by them, just mill towns, no big deal. personally I don't have a dog in this fight, I come from the east (auburn, me) and york pond is closer to me anyways.. just wondering if there's more to the berlin in the shock factor, than it being a mill town? do mill towns shock big city folk?

peakbagger
09-14-2013, 05:23 PM
Definite thread drift but Berlin 30 years ago was far different than the Rumford of today. Until Berlin put the new boiler in in 1991 they used direct contact evaporators, that were energy savers but pumped out various sulfurous gases which are quite odorous even at minute levels. Locals got used to it but most folks from away didnt appreciate the odor from the pulp mill. I used to be an engineer there and after the new boiler went in it was tested and certified as the lowest total sulfur emissions in the US. After that major project I used to spend about 1 millions dollars a year installing systems to capture sulfur gases and in 1998, we put in a new stripping system that further reduced the odor. Unfortunately folks memories are rather long and even though the plant didnt smell anywhere near as previously, it still had the industrial look which doesnt jibe with most Mass folks impressions of what should be in the north woods. Several years after the pulp mill was shut down and then demolished there are some folks who still think they can smell the mill.

The other entirely valid complaint is that Rt 110 through Berlin was and still is easy to miss. Currently about half of it has been improved, but the other half has been delayed for years and is by 2015 should be a lot easier for folks to navigate. Due to long delay on the second half,many houses and apartments were run down for several years waiting for the state to finally buy them and tear them down.

natron
09-14-2013, 07:42 PM
Definite thread drift but Berlin 30 years ago was far different than the Rumford of today. Until Berlin put the new boiler in in 1991 they used direct contact evaporators, that were energy savers but pumped out various sulfurous gases which are quite odorous even at minute levels. Locals got used to it but most folks from away didnt appreciate the odor from the pulp mill. I used to be an engineer there and after the new boiler went in it was tested and certified as the lowest total sulfur emissions in the US. After that major project I used to spend about 1 millions dollars a year installing systems to capture sulfur gases and in 1998, we put in a new stripping system that further reduced the odor. Unfortunately folks memories are rather long and even though the plant didnt smell anywhere near as previously, it still had the industrial look which doesnt jibe with most Mass folks impressions of what should be in the north woods. Several years after the pulp mill was shut down and then demolished there are some folks who still think they can smell the mill.

The other entirely valid complaint is that Rt 110 through Berlin was and still is easy to miss. Currently about half of it has been improved, but the other half has been delayed for years and is by 2015 should be a lot easier for folks to navigate. Due to long delay on the second half,many houses and apartments were run down for several years waiting for the state to finally buy them and tear them down.


good info., thanx peakbagger, you are fountain of information! I grew up in standish, maine 2 towns away from s.d.warren in westbrook, we drove thru westbrook when we went into the big city "portland, maine" (I believe they were pulp also in the 80's) and we always rolled our windows up, what a pungent smell... I imagine similiar to what berlin was like.

Fisher Cat
09-14-2013, 11:19 PM
and we always rolled our windows up, what a pungent smell... I imagine similiar to what berlin was like.

School cafeteria cabbage, and that was on a good day. In fairness it wasn't too bad in Jefferson as the wind blew, but crest Gorham Hill and...oh my,,,,,

NHClimber
09-15-2013, 07:23 AM
I would rather drive through Berlin than a lot of places in MA. Btw, I was on the rail trail on the east side of the river a few weeks back and saw a bear hanging out on the trail about 1/4 mile ahead.

Tom_Murphy
09-15-2013, 08:28 AM
MORE DRIFT , sorry.


various sulfurous gases which are quite odorous even at minute levels

I was always told, "That's the smell of money, son".

Smells can have a strong memory association. That sulfur smell vividly reminds me of places I worked like Camas WA and International Falls MN.

Mike P.
09-15-2013, 09:01 AM
I went up cabot once across Mr. Crane's land before it was closed. Honestly, it wasn't very scenic, only easier to get to from CT, and shorter. The other two approaches I've done (the Hatchery & from the north Mill Brook?) are much nicer and more scenic. A little longer perhaps but you get to see more of NH. Given a choice of mill towns or the shopping & congestion of North Conway, I'd pick mill town.

As far as the conflict with Mr. Crane, as others mentioned, why play ball with someone trying to apply pressure to change the rules for his interests when there are other ways to enjoy this scenery. Kudos to the USFS for standing their ground.

sierra
09-16-2013, 10:47 AM
School cafeteria cabbage, and that was on a good day. In fairness it wasn't too bad in Jefferson as the wind blew, but crest Gorham Hill and...oh my,,,,,

I still remember that smell, I spent a whole summer using the old " Bowman's Base camp", and Gorham was our town for that summer, mmmm rotten eggs, great for that hangover from the night before.:eek: