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rocket21
07-31-2014, 05:58 AM
The elusive NH 200 and NH 300 lists have been posted and there's now a patch!


Hi to All

A new list has been added to the "Grid" website.

The "NH 200" & "NH 300" highest summits.

There is currently no "Official" NH 300 List. This is a best effort approximation researched and developed by Bryan Cuddihee over the past 6-8 months.

Patches will be awarded for both completion of the "NH 200" ( 203 summits ) and the "NH 300" ( 307 summits ).

Eventually, an addendum will be added to this web page that will provide additional options, possibilities, and "delisted" peaks, visited over the years.

This web page is meant to honor "all" finishers, past & future, of "all" versions of this list.


Note: As stated, there are other versions of this list. They are shared selectively and with some exclusivity. This version of the list is meant to be shared by all.

The complete list, instructions for obtaining patches, rules of the game, etc., can be found at the "grid" website listed below.

www.48x12.com (http://www.48x12.com)

Just click on the button for the "NH 200" & "NH 300".


Thanks,
And, Take Care

Ed

New Hampshire 300 Highest (http://www.48x12.com/nh300/nh300.html)

Becca M
07-31-2014, 09:18 PM
It is nice that these lists are available and not so secretive.

RoySwkr
08-02-2014, 10:30 AM
I am not quite sure why Ed continues to sully his reputation by sponsoring bogus peak lists.

This is a pretty poor excuse for a peak list, as usual someone has published it without bothering to review existing information and even though it is supposed to be a spreadsheet there is one peak seriously out of order in the version I downloaded yesterday.

Because many given elevations are not the same as on USGS maps and many names are unusual or misspelled, it is hard to match up with more correct lists but so far I have discovered the following:
* It contains South Hancock with only 4 40' contours and another peak with only 9 20' contours but excludes maybe 8 peaks with 5 or more 40' contours or 10 20' contours so the rules aren't being applied consistently
* It includes a peak whose summit is in Quebec according to both USGS and Canadian maps as well as those who've actually been there

I know of 3 people who have completed the NH 300 (there are probably others), each using a separate list using criteria they selected, the posted list uses no particular consistent criteria and was apparently made up by someone who needs new glasses

rocket21
08-02-2014, 08:43 PM
I am not quite sure why Ed continues to sully his reputation by sponsoring bogus peak lists.



This is a pretty poor excuse for a peak list, as usual someone has published it without bothering to review existing information
What exisiting information? The other lists that aren't made public and aren't shared unless you know the secret handshake?


even though it is supposed to be a spreadsheet there is one peak seriously out of order in the version I downloaded yesterday.
I didn't know the list has to be hiked in order of elevation. Regardless, if one wants to sort by elevation, one can do so in less than 5 seconds.


Because many given elevations are not the same as on USGS maps and many names are unusual or misspelled, it is hard to match up with more correct lists but so far I have discovered the following:
* It contains South Hancock with only 4 40' contours and another peak with only 9 20' contours but excludes maybe 8 peaks with 5 or more 40' contours or 10 20' contours so the rules aren't being applied consistently
I think the first complaint should be brought to the 4,000 Footer Committee.



I know of 3 people who have completed the NH 300 (there are probably others), each using a separate list using criteria they selected, the posted list uses no particular consistent criteria and was apparently made up by someone who needs new glasses
The suggestion is that the first three lists, presumably different than each other, are correct, but the fourth is not?

I think Ed and Bryan have done a great job. If you've ever talked with them in person about these recently posted lists (such as the NH300 or the fire tower list), you'll find that they're interested in any suggestions. They're also quite civil in their online communications.

Peakbagr
08-03-2014, 12:03 PM
"I know of 3 people who have completed the NH 300 (there are probably others), each using a separate list using criteria they selected, the posted list uses no particular consistent criteria and was apparently made up by someone who needs new glasses."

Roy, how would you like having your efforts referred to in this way?

akafuzzjones
08-03-2014, 12:50 PM
From Ed's note: As stated, there are other versions of this list. They are shared selectively and with some exclusivity. This version of the list is meant to be shared by all.

While I will likely never go this deep into the peak lists here in NH, big thanks to Bryan for sharing his version of the list. I'm sure there is some backstory here that I don't know but why haven't the other versions of these lists been shared previously? Is there some secret society of peakbaggers out there?

skiguy
08-03-2014, 01:20 PM
I am not quite sure why Ed continues to sully his reputation by sponsoring bogus peak lists.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf8CWeWd-iE

NewHampshire
08-03-2014, 04:43 PM
Doing the NH300 list was one of the toughest and most rewarding tasks I have ever done. It is not that some of the whacks are harder than any others, but the time investment in driving and the lack of beta for so many of them was enough to drive one mad. I can't even begin to remember how many peaks we were denied due to closed gates, closed roads and all host of other issues. But success falls to those who persevere! :D

The history of the NH300 is quite an interesting one, though perhaps interesting only to those crazy people intent on doing it. The concept of the NH300 started on a hand written piece of paper by a man who has become a bit of a legend in the New England whacking community, John Person, in the early 1990's. His original intent was a NE1000, but the basis of the NH300 came from that first list. Fast forward some years and a few other crazy people entered the picture. Keith D'Alessandro and his wife were lucky enough to come into possession of the list, both completing it themselves. Al Bernier also worked, and finished, the list. All the while, everyone interested in it was working to improve it. The Person version of the list lacked a few peaks as well as had a few that eventually were discovered to lack enough prominence, but it is understandable since, ironically, John never himself completed.

My friend Greg spent quite an amount of time and effort himself in browsing the maps, and thanks to help from guys like Al Bernier, Roy Schweiker, Keith D'Alessandro, Ethan Paquin and a few other legends of the whacking community we were able to tweak things on our end too. This meant climbing some questionable peaks, some that meant doing a whack that in the end was for a peak we decided to take off the list, but it was all a worthwhile adventure. Discovering new places, visiting old ones. My friend and I believe we managed to cover all our bases, but even we will be the first to admit our version may not be perfect.

I know full well my friend and I were not the first to finish. Or second. Maybe not even in the first 10. All we did was follow in some very large footsteps. So to all who went before, and to all who follow, I salute you, wish you the best of luck, and may you have dry trails and open woods! :cool:

Brian

JCarter
08-03-2014, 05:21 PM
From Ed's note: As stated, there are other versions of this list. They are shared selectively and with some exclusivity. This version of the list is meant to be shared by all.

While I will likely never go this deep into the peak lists here in NH, big thanks to Bryan for sharing his version of the list. I'm sure there is some backstory here that I don't know but why haven't the other versions of these lists been shared previously? Is there some secret society of peakbaggers out there?

The first rule of the secret society of peakbaggers is that you never talk about the secret society of peakbaggers.

Raven
08-04-2014, 06:34 AM
Doing the NH300 list was one of the toughest and most rewarding tasks I have ever done. It is not that some of the whacks are harder than any others, but the time investment in driving and the lack of beta for so many of them was enough to drive one mad. I can't even begin to remember how many peaks we were denied due to closed gates, closed roads and all host of other issues. But success falls to those who persevere! :D

The history of the NH300 is quite an interesting one, though perhaps interesting only to those crazy people intent on doing it. The concept of the NH300 started on a hand written piece of paper by a man who has become a bit of a legend in the New England whacking community, John Person, in the early 1990's. His original intent was a NE1000, but the basis of the NH300 came from that first list. Fast forward some years and a few other crazy people entered the picture. Keith D'Alessandro and his wife were lucky enough to come into possession of the list, both completing it themselves. Al Bernier also worked, and finished, the list. All the while, everyone interested in it was working to improve it. The Person version of the list lacked a few peaks as well as had a few that eventually were discovered to lack enough prominence, but it is understandable since, ironically, John never himself completed.

My friend Greg spent quite an amount of time and effort himself in browsing the maps, and thanks to help from guys like Al Bernier, Roy Schweiker, Keith D'Alessandro, Ethan Paquin and a few other legends of the whacking community we were able to tweak things on our end too. This meant climbing some questionable peaks, some that meant doing a whack that in the end was for a peak we decided to take off the list, but it was all a worthwhile adventure. Discovering new places, visiting old ones. My friend and I believe we managed to cover all our bases, but even we will be the first to admit our version may not be perfect.

I know full well my friend and I were not the first to finish. Or second. Maybe not even in the first 10. All we did was follow in some very large footsteps. So to all who went before, and to all who follow, I salute you, wish you the best of luck, and may you have dry trails and open woods! :cool:

Brian

Thanks for sharing Brian. At this point, the NH300 is probably not something I will pursue, but I enjoyed reading how this came about.

Wasn't Oncoman working on the NE1000? I thought I saw some posts over the past few years on that.

RoySwkr
08-04-2014, 09:16 AM
What exisiting information? The other lists that aren't made public and aren't shared unless you know the secret handshake?


I have always provided Ed with anything he wanted, although I don't know why I bother as he doesn't ask until after he posts a list and then rarely makes changes



I didn't know the list has to be hiked in order of elevation. Regardless, if one wants to sort by elevation, one can do so in less than 5 seconds.

It doesn't, but having a peak out of order on a height list is just another indication of sloppiness



I think the first complaint should be brought to the 4,000 Footer Committee.

Why? They have nothing to do with this list and the makers of new lists should not be constrained by irregular old lists - this list includes Guyot for instance



The suggestion is that the first three lists, presumably different than each other, are correct, but the fourth is not?


If you have a list called "52 with a view", you can presumably put any 52 points on it and they don't even have to be peaks, but if you are developing a height list it should be done to consistent standards which the 3 lists I mention had and the posted one does not. (One person chose to include peaks with 10x6m=197' cols and one did not for instance, the choice you make here is less important than that you are consistent,)


I think Ed and Bryan have done a great job.


I'm not surprised that you feel that way :-)

Let's look at what I consider a good peak list - the NH 100 Most Prominent. http://listsofjohn.com/PeakStats/Prominence.php?State=NH Note that if you click on any peak, you get not just the coords for every peak and col but a clickable link to a topographic map that shows it.

By comparision the NH 300 list posted:
* Uses inconsistent criteria for peaks on list
* Doesn't use the same elevations as USGS maps so may be hard to locate peaks as coords aren't provided either
* Uses misspelled or non-traditional names so hard to locate by search
* Didn't bother to take 5 seconds to sort list

If they would like to delete this bogus list before any more copies are downloaded, I would be happy to help create a more correct one once they decide what criteria their list should have.
For instance:
* (All summits to be located in the state of NH) or (Include high point at state line if summit elsewhere, example Rump Mtn)
* (Summit elevation determined by spot elevation if present or interpolation otherwise) or (Summit elevation always determined by interpolation)
* (Col elevation determined by spot elevation if present or interpolation otherwise) or (Col elevation always determined by interpolation)
* (Minimum col depth to be on list is 200') or (Minimum col depth to be on list is 200' on quads using feet or 60m=197' if col or summit on metric quad)
* (Peak must qualify at least on 7.5' (new) quads) or (Peak must qualify at least on 15' (old) quads) or (Peak must qualify on either 7.5' or 15' quads) or (Peak must qualify on both 7.5' and 15' quads)

I know there are Excel freaks out there but using a spreadsheet to keep track of a list that is likely to change is sheer foolishness. Suppose that you have entered 250 dates and Ed decides to correct the 50+/- incorrect elevations, names, and rows. You either have to figure out which 50 have changed and manually make the corrections to your copy, or else reenter the 250 dates into a correct copy. If this information was stored in a database you wouldn't need to do anything except check for new rows, and if you climbed a peak on multiple lists (height, prominence, fire towers, etc.) you need only enter the date once. In fact this capability is already available at sites like listsofjohn.com where you can get a list of every peak in NH with a 300' col and he even flags some marginal ones - there are 648 presently listed so that should keep even BM busy for awhile.


Roy, how would you like having your efforts referred to in this way?
If I had made such a poor effort, I would deserve it - and if this is the only way to discourage people from posting erroneous lists I'll continue to call them out

Peakbagr
08-04-2014, 10:55 AM
Actually, Roy, snarky posts discourage people from replying and people tune you out. You can convey what you know and all you've accomplished by not demeaning people with whom you disagree.

TEO
08-04-2014, 11:53 AM
I'm sure there is some backstory here that I don't know but why haven't the other versions of these lists been shared previously? Is there some secret society of peakbaggers out there?

Indeed there is a secret society of peakbaggers, however while it may be signing a death-warrant, I can tell you how to unravel the super-secret membership roster: bushwhack to the summit of a sub-NEHH peak. If there is a canister, its register will contain a partial membership roster. By bushwhacking to more of these peaks, you will eventually accumulate an almost-complete roster. ;)

To be slightly more serious--and I'm largely inferring, because I've never created a peakbagging list of my own--I'm guessing that these lists are not shared openly on the internet because the creators want to minimize the impact to the many of these peaks that still exist in a relatively wild state. One might think that difficulty reaching many of these peaks would keep them in pristine shape, but it takes a relatively few number of people to have a lasting impact. To wit, recently on a traverse of the southern four peaks of the Hitchcock massif, I was a little surprised to see faint herd paths developing in places.

Others, too, may feel that by not publicizing them, they will help prevent people from getting in over their heads, such as the instance related in a now-deleted thread about a NEHH hike gone-awry in Vermont. Still others may feel that publishing these lists online takes away some of the sense of adventure and/or exploration, mystery, mystique--you choose.

Or maybe I'm completely off base on these guesses. What I do know is that I've requested two lists from people that I didn't know, both of whom I contacted through VFTT, and both people readily shared their information. OTH, a fellow peakbagging friend, in the pre-internet days, once wrote a group that he suspected might have the list he was looking for, and indeed they did. But, instead of sending the list he had requested, they sent him another, easier list, and suggested that he complete that list first and then come back and ask again for the list he wanted.

Raymond
08-04-2014, 03:32 PM
I knew if I waited long enough some herd paths would appear.

bikehikeskifish
08-04-2014, 03:46 PM
I did the Garfield Ridge peaks yesterday. East has a pretty clear herd path but maybe a dozen visitors this year. None between me and 6/28. I recognized most of the names in the log.

West has less if a herd path but wasn't thick at all. I went up both in shorts and short sleeves without a scratch. My dog was initially confused by the lack of a trail but seemed to understand the objective was to go up. He followed our exact tracks down. Gotta love that nose.

In neither case was any navigational aid required. Only a mental note of the number of puds on the GRT and from there head up when the trail leveled out.

These have to be two very easy peaks given the proximity to the GRT. If you are beginning your NHHH quest these are probably a good start. Being NHHH makes them more popular than the 3Ks and the NH200/300 as well.

Tim

peakbagger
08-04-2014, 03:51 PM
I expect the herd paths are another consequence of GPS use. In the past map and compass bushwhacks tended to zig zag on featureless wooded ridges. With GPS someone can just set a course between two points and follow the beeps. I expect its far less prevalent on lesser used peaks but sharing GPS tracks is getting quite popular.

Becca M
08-04-2014, 04:11 PM
You can indeed find the active bushwhackers by looking at the sign-ins... unfortunately, you may also notice a pattern of snarky/inappropriate/rude remarks that correlates to this "secret society". Transparency concerning these lists is a good thing.

NewHampshire
08-04-2014, 05:10 PM
Thanks for sharing Brian. At this point, the NH300 is probably not something I will pursue, but I enjoyed reading how this came about.

Wasn't Oncoman working on the NE1000? I thought I saw some posts over the past few years on that.

Absolutely! Oncoman is but another legend of sorts. There are a few people who's entries you go into a log almost expecting, Oncoman among them (Nefarious Nate and Al Bernier a.k.a. Albee the others :D ). I have not had the pleasure of meeting Oncoman yet, though 2 of my friends happened to have had a chance encounter with him when they apparently decided to pick the same day to do the Black Crescents over near York Pond Road. ;)

Brian

TJsName
08-04-2014, 06:47 PM
I know there are Excel freaks out there...

If you want to compare versions, use the vlookup formula to find the reference on the opposite sheet. The ones that don't have matches have been changed, so it's a lot easier to sort them out. ;)

Raymond
08-05-2014, 12:54 AM
I already climbed the two Garfield Ridge peaks, before there were herd paths. It was the news of the Hitchcock peaks having paths developing that caught my attention. One of my least-favorite and most-confusing bushwhacks was East Hitchcock.

TEO
08-05-2014, 06:34 AM
The herd paths that I spotted on the Hitchcocks were very faint and brief, and were confined to the ridges near the summits, but they seemed to be more than just moose paths. I certainly would not go up there expecting to be able to use them in place of a map & compass. There was nothing established enough to ease the way, or worth trying to really follow, they were just minor signs that others had traveled that way before.

RoySwkr
08-05-2014, 10:46 AM
The concept of the NH300 started on a hand written piece of paper by a man who has become a bit of a legend in the New England whacking community, John Person, in the early 1990's. His original intent was a NE1000, but the basis of the NH300 came from that first list.... John never himself completed.

I heard that JRP finished his version, which included jigsaw peaks like W Rump

Another independent version of the list appeared at the finishing party for #6 of the New England 3k, who was given a copy of a New England 2k list which at that time included some 15' maps. That guy hasn't been heard from much lately, maybe he is still working on it :-)

skiguy
08-05-2014, 11:38 AM
You can indeed find the active bushwhackers by looking at the sign-ins... unfortunately, you may also notice a pattern of snarky/inappropriate/rude remarks that correlates to this "secret society". Transparency concerning these lists is a good thing.
Interesting post for #666. Not everyone signs the registers. Therefore maybe they are the ones that hold the keys to the "Illuminati of the whackers".:D In all seriousness I find the snarky remarks entertaining and donot put much weight on them. In the big picture I have found the hiking community to be very forthcoming with info wether it be a list or just a place to quaff a beer and a burger afterwards. IMO any secret handshakes going on is really more about respecting the folks that just don't want to have the beta blasted all over the Internet. Information was given by word of mouth and acquaintance a long time before the web. Therefore I believe it is important to respect that tradition. So just try asking around without the use of the net or at least use a PM. You never know what you might find out.

rocket21
08-05-2014, 12:44 PM
Not everyone signs the registers. Therefore maybe they are the ones that hold the keys to the "Illuminati of the whackers".:D In all seriousness I find the snarky remarks entertaining and donot put much weight on them. In the big picture I have found the hiking community to be very forthcoming with info wether it be a list or just a place to quaff a beer and a burger afterwards. IMO any secret handshakes going on is really more about respecting the folks that just don't want to have the beta blasted all over the Internet.

Some members of the secret 'community' have put death threats and homophobic remarks in the canisters, which I don't think many find entertaining or snarky.

skiguy
08-05-2014, 01:12 PM
Some members of the secret 'community' have put death threats and homophobic remarks in the canisters, which I don't think many find entertaining or snarky.

Like I said I don't put too much weight on those comments. It's the people that steal ballpoint pens from Cannon Mt. that really concern me.:D

NewHampshire
08-05-2014, 05:40 PM
I heard that JRP finished his version, which included jigsaw peaks like W Rump

Another independent version of the list appeared at the finishing party for #6 of the New England 3k, who was given a copy of a New England 2k list which at that time included some 15' maps. That guy hasn't been heard from much lately, maybe he is still working on it :-)


You are correct. I misunderstood Keith when he said JR did not finish the NH300. He said that JR's NE1000 list fell 13 peaks short on what the NH300 would be, so thus while he completed NE1000, he was 13 short of finishing the NH300.

So I stand corrected. :)

Brian

TEO
08-06-2014, 11:24 AM
Like I said I don't put too much weight on those comments. It's the people that steal ballpoint pens from Cannon Mt. that really concern me.:D

I don't have any issues with death threats, per se, but I've seen one of the comments that Rocket21 alludes to, and it seemed to me to be inappropriate. I don't think summit canisters are an appropriate venue for personal attacks. That's what the inter webs are for. ;)

That said, such remarks are infrequent in my experience, but maybe that's just because I need to get out more. My favorite register entry was that of a good friend, who happened to have summitted that peak 20 years and one month, to the day, before I did. One of the old log-books at the Panther Gorge lean-to, on the other side of the sixth Great Lake, had some brilliant entries.

akafuzzjones
08-06-2014, 11:52 AM
Indeed there is a secret society of peakbaggers, however while it may be signing a death-warrant, I can tell you how to unravel the super-secret membership roster: bushwhack to the summit of a sub-NEHH peak. If there is a canister, its register will contain a partial membership roster. By bushwhacking to more of these peaks, you will eventually accumulate an almost-complete roster. ;)

Hadn't considered this approach to unraveling the mystery, although some subsequent posts in this thread has also shed some light on this subject. :)

RoySwkr
08-06-2014, 12:22 PM
Some members of the secret 'community' have put death threats and homophobic remarks in the canisters, which I don't think many find entertaining or snarky.
I can say for sure that there is no secret community, because most serious bushwhackers are quite independent and disdain each other as much as they disdain the rest of the world. From reading various messages I can infer that some don't like me, some don't like r21, some don't like bryan, noway would they get together on anything. Historically, when there were 3 people vying to be first on the NH3k they mostly went alone or with their own friends rather than banding together.

The closest thing to a secret community I know of is the Sent To list for the message in the base note, who were planning a NH300 list without including any finishers or anybody who had one.

Depending on what criteria you use for a peak, there are maybe 2200 peaks in NH and I know two guys who have each hiked over 1500 of them. These guys know each other but have probably hiked together less than a dozen times because each has his own style of doing things. They don't belong to this or other Internet groups because nobody else wants info on the places they do and vice versa.

rocket21
08-06-2014, 01:51 PM
I can say for sure that there is no secret community, because most serious bushwhackers are quite independent and disdain each other as much as they disdain the rest of the world.

I take it you're not a member of the private "New England Bushwhackers" ("NEBW") Google group (http://groups.google.com/group/nebushwhackers) referred to by various bushwhackers in various canisters across New England?

Snowflea
08-06-2014, 02:20 PM
Secret societies?
Homophobic slurs?
Death threats?? :eek:

Sad. Who knew bushwhacking could sound like a bad B movie? :rolleyes:
Think I'm happier having quit after the NH 100 Highest 20+ years ago.

Motabobo
08-06-2014, 04:00 PM
I take it you're not a member of the private "New England Bushwhackers" ("NEBW") Google group (http://groups.google.com/group/nebushwhackers) referred to by various bushwhackers in various canisters across New England?I heard that part of their initiation process is to make you bushwhack all 5 Hitchcocks in a day, barefoot and naked.

bikehikeskifish
08-06-2014, 04:13 PM
The closest thing to a secret community I know of is the Sent To list for the message in the base note, who were planning a NH300 list without including any finishers or anybody who had one.


I was in the sent to list and was not part of planning. Presumably you meant the senders?

Do you know they did not publish this message through other means? They clearly stated this version was meant to be shared which doesn't sound all that secretive to me. Further the list is publicly available on their website not unlike the AMC lists being on the AMC web site.

Do you know they didn't contact the current keepers of the interior lists? Maybe they did and were denied thus leading to the position the interior lists are secret.

Some pretty weighty assertions there Roy with not a lot of backing.

I happen to know of the existence of the NEBW list and their occasional pastime of poking fun at vftt.org. But it's only hearsay.

Tim

skiguy
08-06-2014, 04:19 PM
I heard that part of their initiation process is to make you bushwhack all 5 Hitchcocks in a day, barefoot and naked.
Are those peaks and criteria included on some secret list we don't know about?

Raven
08-07-2014, 07:07 AM
This thread is great.

My opinion of the info is that it seems secretive because very few people care to have it. I can't speak to NH300 or the 3,000 footers, etc, but I finished the NEHH 10 years ago. Other than the TW72, my bush whacking really stopped there. My experience was to send a request letter to the committee. I was given an envelope with some pointers and details on approaches for each mountain as well as photocopied sections of maps. In many cases I bought the large USGS quad for the area and looked over possible ways and routes to summit. It was an awesome adventure and fun way to do it. It was not pre-internet days when I was hiking them, but I was not using the internet for research at the time and did not really even know if it was out there.

I really enjoyed the experience of having very little information on routes and finding my own way to the summits solo with a map and compass. That's not to disparage other means of locating the summit (GPS, following a group, etc.), just to point out that I enjoyed NOT knowing the exact routes others had taken and enjoyed having to rely on a combination of map and compass and terrain features.

The part that made the NEHH feel different was the logging slash, the impenetrable spruce whose trunks were sometimes too close together to squeeze between, and the lack of herd paths. Sometimes I found a herd path, but just as often there was no sign of one. I only ran into one other person ever while doing the BW peaks, a man coming up from another direction (Moose Mountain I think but would have to look at notes) We were able to hike out together.

My experience (limited) was that when asking for the information I wanted on the NEHH, I was given it. I also asked for very little information...but enough.

As far as the summit registers were concerned, all I recall seeing was sporadic names, an occasional comment related to peak number on a list, and an occasional drawing. I often draw a raven outline. I never saw a derogatory comment in a register on these summits, but again, I was limited to NEHH BW peaks and other than a handful of TW peaks, most were over 10 years ago. Apparently, things may have changed. Too bad if so.

I am of the opinion that it should take asking for the information personally, but not that it should be a secret. I can see why some of this info is not posted online which might encourage overuse. Maybe it shouldn't be that easy. I can also understand why people who have slaved over maps into the wee hours may not want to give that info up to anyone who asks. We all have the means to calculate these lists ourselves if necessary. The reality is I think most people who had this info would choose not to use it after finding out the reality of bush whacking. It's not the champagne and caviar it's often cracked up to be. ;)

RoySwkr
08-07-2014, 09:49 AM
I take it you're not a member of the private "New England Bushwhackers" ("NEBW") Google group (http://groups.google.com/group/nebushwhackers) referred to by various bushwhackers in various canisters across New England?
I would say nobody is a member since it was archived awhile ago, as EdH was a member I'm not sure how he can consider it secret

And while it existed the members argued with each other about as much as the members here do, so it wasn't a unified cabal

If somebody mentions VFTT in a peak register, does that make VFTT a secret society?

I hear rumors that there is a VFTT Facebook group, is that a secret council?



Do you know they didn't contact the current keepers of the interior lists? Maybe they did and were denied thus leading to the position the interior lists are secret.

Some pretty weighty assertions there Roy with not a lot of backing.

I wasn't asked, and I have a list that has been checked with 2 other independently-derived lists, and I don't know anybody else who was

I'll let r21 name those who were allegedly checked with if they exist

rocket21
08-07-2014, 01:55 PM
If somebody mentions VFTT in a peak register, does that make VFTT a secret society?

I hear rumors that there is a VFTT Facebook group, is that a secret council?
The bulk of VFTT can be viewed by the public, regardless of whether they have a user account. That was not the case for NEBW. In fact, certain individuals took to canisters to taunt other individuals about not being allowed to join, which was pretty humourous to say the least.

I'll let r21 name those who were allegedly checked with if they exist
I can only answer for the Ossipee 10. I did not compile the NH 200 or NH 300.

elhefe007a
08-07-2014, 02:18 PM
I remember when the NE3k list was impossible to get ones hands on. I thought I had struck gold when I got a copy.

Anyway, awesome lists, thanks for compiling and making public for all! I've added them to the peak bagging app (see signature) for those who are using it.

J&J
08-07-2014, 02:28 PM
In the interest of transparencyÖ

The NH300 lists arenít considered super secret, however they arenít passed out indiscriminately either, but passed out to those considered to be good stewards of the bushwhacking community. Usually one of the caveats to receiving a list is that they were not to be published on the Internet.

The original developer of the list back in the Ď90ís spent a lot of time studying topoís coming up with his list. The most current updated lists received the same type of scrutiny. When someone spends a lot of time developing lists, hiking the peaks, reviewing, comparing with other people working on the same list, they become very protective of their lists and donít want to be handing their lists to just anyone.

In fact, Ed himself received a copy of an updated NH300 list last year so heís had the list for a while. Ed has also passed this same list along to many of his web site insiders, and also several members of VFTT. Bryan himself received a copy of an older list. An additional NH300 list was recently posted elsewhere on the net a few weeks before Ed and Bryan went public with their list. All the lists vary by a handful or less of peaks. Iím sure the 48x12 version of the NH300 list will be reviewed thoroughly, compared to the current existing versions, and republished with a more accurate list based upon the most current versions.

What I donít understand is the ill feeling towards the list keepers who spent a lot of time and effort developing their own lists and are wary of passing them out to everyone who asks for them. There is no law that says all lists shall be shared. Especially if the public posting of said lists is the end result. There is also no law that says someone without the list canít develop their own lists by studying the topoís as it was done in the old days, but then again, everyone likes a shortcut.

I also donít like the fact the NEBW is being painted with a very broad brush because a very small number of members make stupid remarks in registers. I agree those types of entries are totally inappropriate. Those people represent themselves, not NEBW. Most members of NEBW are well known in the hiking community and are considered exceptional stewards of bushwhacking and hiking in general.

As Roy states, NEBW is now a defunct group. They were a like-minded group of bushwhackers sharing the joy and travails that the sport entails. There is no secret society of bushwhackers, never has been, but that may change. The Internet has changed things and not necessarily for the better. Roy also describes perfectly the mindset of most bushwhackers, independent to a T. Thatís why they bushwhack.

Another thing that does bother me is the subjugation of the lists. Nothing is being said of the original list makers. They should be honored with some sort of statement as the original creators of whatever lists. List makers such as John Person, Gene Daniell, Iris Baird and Chris Haartz for the fire tower list, and other list makers, current and past. It seems like the wrong people are getting credit for others works.

As far as Iím concerned, this whole NH200-NH300 list issue is much ado about nothing with the exception of the posting the list on the Internet when being asked not too. Even then, does it really matter? Over 10,000 known people have completed the NH4kís. There could be another 1,000-10,000 unknown people who completed the 48. Each advanced list (NE67, NE100) drops considerably in member numbers, as the lists get tougher. Less than 130 known people have completed the NH100. Less than 30 known people have completed the NH200 list. A list in the single digits comprises the finishers of the NH300 list currently.

Discounting anyone currently working on the NH300 list, I donít see the finisher list doubling in the next five years. However, itís now on the Ďnet, there are even patches (for once I like the patches as they are a carbon copy of Bill Bowdenís NH100 patch) for the NH200-300 lists finishers (if they apply), and the glory shall rain down on them for all time when they complete their last 2,400í peak. Iíve finished my NH200 and Iíll be a NH300 finisher but I wonít be applying. I shall remain an independent bushwhacker.

John

TEO
08-07-2014, 02:59 PM
PEAKBAGGING LISTS FOR SALE (NOTE: DOES NOT INCLUDE SHIPPING COSTS)

1 Fair condition, mostly-filled NHHH List: $50 OBO

1 Good condition, partially-filled NH200 List: $75

1 Good condition, slightly-filled NE770: $185 FIRM

FREE (shipping cost only): 1 Poor condition, completely filled NEHH list & 1 poor condition, completely filled NE116 list

trailbagger
08-07-2014, 04:41 PM
I hate bushwhacking and won't ever finish the NEHH. I attempted Scar Ridge and Vose Spur and found both so miserable I aborted both hikes. Just wanted to share that with the group. However, I *am* enjoying this thread. :)

Motabobo
08-07-2014, 04:45 PM
I heard that only the Google group medium is dead and that the members are still performing a secret handshake.

NewHampshire
08-07-2014, 05:39 PM
What I donít understand is the ill feeling towards the list keepers who spent a lot of time and effort developing their own lists and are wary of passing them out to everyone who asks for them. There is no law that says all lists shall be shared. Especially if the public posting of said lists is the end result. There is also no law that says someone without the list canít develop their own lists by studying the topoís as it was done in the old days, but then again, everyone likes a shortcut.


Some very great points, John, and to illustrate the above point a short example.

Keith D'Alessasndro is a friend. I won't hide the fact, and consider him well worth knowing. I like to think he holds me in a fair regard as well. Now, you would think that I asked for the NH300 list and received it immediately. This was not the case. The first time I asked Keith for it he said he was sorry, but he couldn't do it, at least not at that time. I did not take it personal. I figured he had his reasons. I wasn't real hard up for the list simply because at that point I was still knee deep in the NH3K's. His saying no was in no way a problem for me, and honestly it is not like the information is secret...if I wanted a 300 list that badly I was free to browse maps on my own and come up with one. It took over a year before I asked again and he decided to give me a copy with the express condition I not share it. Fair enough. His list, his rules. And even then, the copy received was not perfect. In the end some work still had to be done to bring it to a level of accuracy to which my friend Greg and I were happy to accept. But as I stated once before in this thread, I admit it may not be perfect.

To continue to wax philosophical as John has, I think I see the biggest problem in all this me-vs.-them fighting. It is a general lack of communication and understanding. Look, let's face it, people are always going to hate other people, and those people will instill their hate into their friends and vice-versa. Is it fair? Of course not, but it is only human nature, and trying to fight human nature is always a losing battle. A friend of mine recently described the situation best, so much so I knew he was dead right. What we have here is a classic example of the Hatfield and McCoy's syndrome. Two sides fighting on principle even though no one can remember quite all the details of what started it all. I think a lot has suffered through all of this fighting, and it saddens me because I see many people have lost sight of the fact that this is supposed to be a "fun" pastime.

For the most part I have tried to keep on the positive side of it all. As many who read jar entries of mine may note, I am a profane person (alas, a fault I admit there is no swear jar big enough to cure me :D, and Al Bernier is forever poking fun at me for it :) ), but I believe I have tried to not make it personal. Alas my memory does suck, and there may have been some things said at some point by me...and if so then whoever said entry was about I give my sincere apology to him/her/they/them, whatever the case may be. I know someone is taking something personal as I have found 2 instances of my entries being tampered with, one was transported from Teapot to one of the GoSavages. Another on Dartmouth was scribbled out. It is pretty easy to put two and two together to know who was responsible for one simply by looking at sign-ins to that almost never visited peak. And yet here is the thing...it does not bother me. Really, and I know it may shock some, but it does not. I don't blame the person/s, and surely don't take it personal anymore. But I hope they could understand that this is an example of how bad things have gotten amongst both "sides". I once told someone on another forum, in connection with something totally not connected to this issue, but which applies rather here well. "Take the high road every time, and in the end you come out looking better than if you sling mud."

Look, I don't expect everyone to drop all grievances and hatred and suddenly start being best friends. But maybe in my foolishly optimistic world I can hope everyone could at least starting looking each other in the eye and being a bit civil. I know that when dealing with people on both sides of this issue I have mostly found people to be open and friendly when dealing one on one. For all Roy's gruffness the guy is top notch. He is about as close to anyone on these forums you will find that has pretty much "been there and done that". He is pretty ready to lend a hand when asked. Likewise so have some of the other greats...the Carl Cressys, Keith D'Alessandros, Steve Smiths of the hiking world. And, in absolute fairness Even Ed, Bryan and Eric Rathbun. I recently filled out the application and sent it in to Bryan, and if I am going to be honest I half expected to be ignored because of my friend associations. And yet, I was not ignored, and all three guys responded in a timely and most polite manner. And this...this right here is why I think maybe there is still a glimmer of hope that both sides might be able to connect with each other on, not so much a friendlier note....but perhaps at least a less aggressive one. Again, idealistic perhaps, but maybe not. Frankly I shifted my life priorities a couple years ago and am now to the point where I can't work up enough emotional involvement in what, in the greater scope of the world, is really just minor things. Canisters, log entries, who hates who, yellow spray paint on summits...when I see so much more death and destruction in the world it is tough to get worked up over a few bits of paper, plastic, particles of paint or who said what about who. I guess I can sum it all up in one word....Peace. :cool:

And one last point, to further what Roy and John said about NEBW. Indeed it was archived and no longer active. The owner shut it down because, and this may surprise those who lament it so, it wasn't being used much. The last couple years it maybe saw one post a month or two. And while it may be hard to believe, but the content was not VFTT like (meaning talking about anything or everything). The best I can liken it to is an email version of a trail condition or trip report site. In fact, the owner, when I was given access, expressly pointed out that this wasn't to be used as a general forum. Indeed, 75% of the membership were guys who generally stay about petty group politics and were there mostly for their knowledge . Were things said here and there not strictly about hiking/whacking? Sure, but I can promise you it really wasn't any worse than you would find publicly here on VFTT. ;)

Now that I am done channeling the spirit of Ghandi I have to go and teach Motabobo the new secret handshake. It is pretty much the same as the old one, but laced with a few French expletives. :cool:

Brian

P.S. And if you don't want to bother reading all my tripe above then just take away this one moral of the story....Peace my friends.

rocket21
08-07-2014, 09:03 PM
I think this thread illustrates why it is so great that Ed, Bryan, and Eric made the lists available - so that folks can view the lists and hike the peaks without having to get involved in any of the drama.

By the way, I can't speak toward what's happening in some canisters (or why some are choosing to rip down some PVC canisters but leave other PVC canisters, and write critical messages about said PVC canisters in other canisters), but I was the one who scribbled out the entry on Dartmouth. The contents of the message I scribbled out were obscene enough that I wouldn't be able to post them here without getting in trouble with the moderators. Perhaps these obscenities and personal attacks are part of the reason canisters have been disappearing.

Motabobo
08-08-2014, 05:38 AM
I think this thread illustrates why it is so great that Ed, Bryan, and Eric made the lists available - so that folks can view the lists and hike the peaks without having to get involved in any of the drama.Let's see what happens to these peaks with all this new awereness and then you heroes tell me if the drama is over.

rocket21
08-08-2014, 06:33 AM
In the interest of transparency…



In fact, Ed himself received a copy of an updated NH300 list last year so he’s had the list for a while. Ed has also passed this same list along to many of his web site insiders, and also several members of VFTT. Bryan himself received a copy of an older list.

This is a base canard. I recall when Bryan was on the verge of completing the 100 and had already started the NH 300 by simply looking at the map...such as, on a few bushwhacks I joined him for, he'd suggest there was a reasonable col to an adjacent peak and that we might as well check it out whilst there. Sometime around this time, I recall he politely started inquiring about the 300 (with no intention of posting the list online) and was refused by multiple individuals. Some were apologetic (being instructed that they could not send it), others were patronizing to say the least (questioning his motives for hiking).

Not letting the secret handshake society deter him from exploring a new-to-him set of peaks, Bryan took to researching the remaining peaks on his own, spending much of the winter scouring the USGS 7.5 minute topos and various online data sources. We discussed the research he was doing, and how, since it's public, non-copyright-applicable data, that there doesn't need to be a secret handshake or series of veiled threats needed to obtain it.

Was Bryan the first one to compile this list? Obviously not. Others have claimed to invent it, but obviously they weren't the first either. Did he simply regurgitate an NH 300 list sent to him, as has been claimed here? No, and the alleged variations between the list he compiled and the ones Roy cites seem to validate that. My understanding is that Ed respected the efforts Bryan went through and appreciated his desire to share his work, so that's how the site and patches came to be.


Let's see what happens to these peaks with all this new awereness and then you heroes tell me if the drama is over.
Classy.

Grey J
08-08-2014, 08:01 AM
Can y'all spell internecine warfare?

Tim Seaver
08-08-2014, 08:07 AM
I'll add this bizarre thread to another one of the "Hundred And One Reasons I Don't Do Lists".

Crikey.

peakbagger
08-08-2014, 09:19 AM
Without making any insults, to the participants I expect the following my in some way apply

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

George Bernard Shaw

RoySwkr
08-08-2014, 09:35 AM
The original developer of the list back in the ‘90’s spent a lot of time studying topo’s coming up with his list.

I would say that anyone who make their own list from maps rather than copying lists is an "original developer", there may be a dozen or more for the NH300. As to the oldest NH300 list, Gene Daniell made a list of every peak in NH in the early 1970s so even if you want to claim making the first NH1000 list you are 40 years too late :-) What JRP can claim is to be the first to actually hike his list.



All the lists vary by a handful or less of peaks.

I would say Bryan's list varies by over 10 peaks from some others with stringent criteria, perhaps that is a "handful" out of 300



I’m sure the 48x12 version of the NH300 list will be reviewed thoroughly, compared to the current existing versions, and republished with a more accurate list based upon the most current versions.

I'm less sure of that which I why I started this ruckus, Ed had promised only to "footnote" changes. If he wants a correct list, why not publish a better list to begin with?



As far as I’m concerned, this whole NH200-NH300 list issue is much ado about nothing with the exception of the posting the list on the Internet when being asked not too.

I have never objected to posting a correct list, only to posting one riddled with errors when more correct ones were available. I helped a guy make a list of all peaks in NH with 300' cols which he sold to Google, they apparently never published it directly as they're not into peak lists :-)

TJsName
08-08-2014, 11:11 AM
This has been an interesting thread to watch. :)

I'm not sure the lack of an accurate list is really the main thing preventing most hikers I know from tackling the task. Extensive bushwhacking has limited appeal to many/most hikers I know, which might not be representative. It seems to be a much more personal/intimate quest for those who undertake it on a regular basis.

Tom Rankin
08-08-2014, 12:16 PM
Many hikers seem averse to bushwhacking. Witness the endless discussions about Owl's Head.

But once people learn that a herd path has developed on Mt. What-cha-ma-call-it, off they go! :eek:

Maybe that is where some of the reticence to share lists comes from.

NorthShore
08-08-2014, 03:07 PM
Bushwhacking is much more fun without a herdpath. Otherwise it isn't bushwhacking; it is trail hiking on a crappy trail. But I shouldn't be in this thread. 300 deep lists are too rich for my blood.

Red Oak
08-08-2014, 04:12 PM
I have question in which this seems to be the perfect place to ask. What is the most common list people use for the nh100? I have for six years been working on one which has for example #4clay #5 boot spur #12 slide peak #21 guyot #23 north carter #61 thru 100 has some obscure ones like #68 davis and #72 terrace. It might be related to some dude name Mark Malnati? I really am wondering who decides what list for the nh100 gets you a patch? I would love to get that patch someday.
Thanks for posting the list Bryan!! Hard to believe anyone would keep a silly list from another person. Why compile a list only to horde it. Cracks me up!

TEO
08-08-2014, 04:56 PM
I have question in which this seems to be the perfect place to ask. What is the most common list people use for the nh100? I have for six years been working on one which has for example #4clay #5 boot spur #12 slide peak #21 guyot #23 north carter #61 thru 100 has some obscure ones like #68 davis and #72 terrace. It might be related to some dude name Mark Malnati? I really am wondering who decides what list for the nh100 gets you a patch? I would love to get that patch someday.
Thanks for posting the list Bryan!! Hard to believe anyone would keep a silly list from another person. Why compile a list only to horde it. Cracks me up!

That sounds more like the Trailwrights list than the NHHH.

alexmtn
08-08-2014, 05:10 PM
Many hikers seem averse to bushwhacking. Witness the endless discussions about Owl's Head.
But once people learn that a herd path has developed on Mt. What-cha-ma-call-it, off they go! :eek:
Maybe that is where some of the reticence to share lists comes from.

Hmmm. I think we'd all agree that with thousands of NH48-seekers tramping through, the above certainly applies to Owls Head, though I remain amazed by how the Black Pond bushwhack still to this day is not a rutted-in cakewalk. But, really -- when we get to '200, '300, '1000 lists, just exactly how many hikers are we worried there's ever going to be? Enough to create a herd path?? Seriously???

Sadly, as much as we might wish to think/hope that it's something more noble, my experiences tell me that a major driver of the reticence really is a strong feeling of privileged exclusivity. One winter, I took a large group on an instructional map/compass bushwhack up West Scar. Over the course of two days, we broke out both summits through 4+ feet of snow, sometimes tunneling under 12' drifts. Wanting to offer the opportunity, I made wide mention of the fact that the broken-out route was now there for the taking. Despite the fact that it was winter, deep snow, with consequently near-zero herd path creation risk, "insiders" were not pleased. "I did this-and-this-and-this in order to get that peak, so why shouldn't THEY have to?" was pretty much the refrain.

IMO, that point of view is both specious and unfortunate. It's specious, as any of us list-obsessed peak baggers know, because all of us have had trips that were really challenging and arduous (as that Scar trip was for me), and others that were "gimme's", either because the snow conditions were perfect, or because we were hiking with a veteran, or because we stumbled on a herd path, etc. So in that instance following my announcement, Scar was a gimme for the few folks that managed to hustle over there in time before the next dump. Just like all of us, those folks will also have their share of hard trips -- perhaps some on peaks that were "gimmes" for others. In short, every list finisher can point to his/her easy days and tough days.

An exclusive attitude on the part of someone who could otherwise be constructive and helpful is unfortunate, because if we're truly serious about protecting our beloved mountains/woods, we should be doing everything we can to INTEREST more people, rather than make the act of connecting harder for them. The more folks who are IN with us, the greater the size and effectiveness of a political constituency that can fight to protect these spaces from development of all sorts, way above and beyond whether a herd path does/doesn't develop somewhere. Take Northern Pass, for example - how's that for a herd path? One of the major reasons I lead trips is the reward that's to be had when a hiker says "I get it. This is fantastic. Count me in -- I'm part of it now!" Beyond the political benefits, new, like-minded friendships are a wonderful thing.

Alex

NewHampshire
08-08-2014, 05:30 PM
I but I was the one who scribbled out the entry on Dartmouth. The contents of the message I scribbled out were obscene enough that I wouldn't be able to post them here without getting in trouble with the moderators.

Yes, I surmised as much. But I stand by what I wrote above that it does not bother me. I don't blame you. Won't judge you on the act. S'all good. :cool: Though I do admire your dedication I would venture that the single F word written in that entry on a piece of paper to be seen by perhaps 2 or 3 people a year is not the doom to world sensibilities you fear it may be, especially considering 5 minutes of HBO or Cinemax programming is considerably much worse. :p But by all means if you wish scribble them all out if it brings you happiness. ;) I hate to sound like a broken record, but I don't mind. They are but tiny pieces of paper I probably shan't see ever again anyway (well, except for the Teapot entry transported to GoSavage...which I actually laughed about. It was like seeing an old friend you never expected and brought back fond memories). I am of course kidding. :D

As I said, one of my (many) faults is a propensity to the, as Spock likes to call them, "colorful metaphors." I am the Baron of Bad Language, the Captain of Crude words, Senator of Salty sayings. I have been known to teach a ship full of Navy sailors, and whole platoons of rowdy Marines, the finer points of lascivious exclamations. If it makes you feel better I'll drop a quarter in the swear jar...a dare say by the time all is said and done I shall be able to afford lunch for a small African nation (or two :eek:).

But of course, all joking aside, death threats are the one line that even I will not cross for any reason.

Brian

rocket21
08-08-2014, 07:31 PM
I have question in which this seems to be the perfect place to ask. What is the most common list people use for the nh100? I have for six years been working on one which has for example #4clay #5 boot spur #12 slide peak #21 guyot #23 north carter #61 thru 100 has some obscure ones like #68 davis and #72 terrace. It might be related to some dude name Mark Malnati? I really am wondering who decides what list for the nh100 gets you a patch?
I don't know what the status is of it now, but it sounds like it could be the YMCA list? If I recall, there was a 100 peak YMCA Alpine list on the old Rocks on Top peakbagging checklist section years ago.


I would venture that the single F word written in that entry on a piece of paper to be seen by perhaps 2 or 3 people a year is not the doom to world sensibilities you fear it may be, especially considering 5 minutes of HBO or Cinemax programming is considerably much worse. :p

The entry I scribbled out wasn't just a simple F-bomb. The person I hiked that peak with, who was somewhat new to the whole canister scene, was shocked by what they read and came away from that hike with a much different view of some of the modern bushwhacking community. A wise man I know refers to this recent trend as 'bathroom notes.'

NewHampshire
08-08-2014, 08:15 PM
The entry I scribbled out wasn't just a simple F-bomb. The person I hiked that peak with, who was somewhat new to the whole canister scene, was shocked by what they read and came away from that hike with a much different view of some of the modern bushwhacking community. A wise man I know refers to this recent trend as 'bathroom notes.'

Well, I happen to have a picture of the offending entry courtesy of my friend Greg. In it's totality it says:

"The things I do for *the f word* named Greg. Sheesh all these miles for something I had already! Oh well, filling in my 3K grid (smiley face)"

The Greg in question, is as I say, my friend. He was there when I wrote it. He read it. I dare say he gave a merry chuckle too. :)

Like I said, sorry this was so grievous an entry, but I can't say this particular one was all that bad (not to mention that no one is forced to read it). I guess it's all a matter of opinion. :cool: Of course I digress. This really is an unfortunate distraction to the main points I have been trying to work with....

...Frankly I don't get it. I am making a serious effort here to try and throw some cold water on what has clearly developed over the years into a pretty hot and bitter situation between two sides. I have seen you face to face maybe what, a couple times over the many years. Can't remember those encounters being anything more than cordial and polite. I hardly know you, so thus no reason to seriously dislike you. I am not exactly sure what more you expect from me to believe I am trying to be anything but sincere. I seriously don't expect everyone to start being the greatest of friends, but I don't see why we all can't at least try to find common ground before things REALLY get out of hand. I have had more than one person tell me already I am crazy for thinking I could change this situation in any way through reasoned conversations. But I figured at least someone has to try.

So for whatever it is worth, there it is. I have tried, and for that at least my conscious is now clear. I'm sorry if it was all for naught, but I guess at this point now there is nothing more for me to add. So all I can do is simply close with my well wishes, and a hearty "peace my friend." :cool:

Brian

rocket21
08-08-2014, 09:27 PM
Well, I happen to have a picture of the offending entry courtesy of my friend Greg. In it's totality it says:

I took a photo of it as well and that's not quite what it says. Those who have had folks Down's Syndrome in their lives would not have appreciated the variation of the F word used. Unfortunately it's just a sample of the canister filth and backchannel communication (unfortunately, just like high school, it gets around) that has given some of the bushwhacking community a bad name in recent years. Fortunately there are quite a few people out there who are removing the bathroom note entries. Interestingly, others have taken to removing entire canisters because they weren't placed by their clique.

Back to the discussion of exclusivity of lists and fear of overuse of the peaks...considering most of these peaks are on public land, I don't understand why some who have already hiked the peaks think their footsteps (for sake of discussion, we'll say they were the 24th person to go there) were somehow kosher and of no impact, yet if more people come in the future, person 124's footsteps are somehow bad.

TJsName
08-08-2014, 10:24 PM
Many hikers seem averse to bushwhacking. Witness the endless discussions about Owl's Head.

But once people learn that a herd path has developed on Mt. What-cha-ma-call-it, off they go! :eek:

Maybe that is where some of the reticence to share lists comes from.

It seems these canisters are a pretty good motivator for some people. I'm curious how those mesh with LNT - who oversees those on state/federal land?

skiguy
08-08-2014, 10:47 PM
I took a photo of it as well and that's not quite what it says. Those who have had folks Down's Syndrome in their lives would not have appreciated the variation of the F word used. Unfortunately it's just a sample of the canister filth and backchannel communication (unfortunately, just like high school, it gets around) that has given some of the bushwhacking community a bad name in recent years. Fortunately there are quite a few people out there who are removing the bathroom note entries. Interestingly, others have taken to removing entire canisters because they weren't placed by their clique.

Back to the discussion of exclusivity of lists and fear of overuse of the peaks...considering most of these peaks are on public land, I don't understand why some who have already hiked the peaks think their footsteps (for sake of discussion, we'll say they were the 24th person to go there) were somehow kosher and of no impact, yet if more people come in the future, person 124's footsteps are somehow bad.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MwHWbsvgQUE

alexmtn
08-08-2014, 10:54 PM
Interestingly, others have taken to removing entire canisters because they weren't placed by their clique.

The reference to the canister placement/un-placement clique prompts a quick digression from the thread topic just in case anyone therein sees this: Those PVC canisters are getting really good! My compliments to whoever's been assembling them and steadily improving the design to be both rain tight, durable, and at the same time easy to operate in winter. I'll be visiting a sizable number of NE/NH100 peaks (and a few 3K's) over the next couple of winters, and would be happy to assist with placement/re-placement where needed, if an additional set of engineering-adept 'snowshoes on the ground' would ever be at all helpful. Just let me know. [end of digression]

rocket21
08-09-2014, 06:20 AM
The reference to the canister placement/un-placement clique prompts a quick digression from the thread topic just in case anyone therein sees this: Those PVC canisters are getting really good! My compliments to whoever's been assembling them and steadily improving the design to be both rain tight, durable, and at the same time easy to operate in winter.

I agree the design has advanced. The ones being removed by a certain clique are on some of the lower peaks in the list linked in this thread...those canisters were placed in recent years and are of a smaller, yet otherwise quite similar design to the 'AMC' canisters. It's been unfortunate to visit scenes of these removals in recent hikes, seeing off color remarks written about the individual building these canisters, as well as the debris left behind by those in the clique deciding to take them down.

Tom Rankin
08-09-2014, 07:29 AM
It seems these canisters are a pretty good motivator for some people. I'm curious how those mesh with LNT - who oversees those on state/federal land?I don't know about anything but NY, but here they are illegal. We have very few canisters, aside from the canisters permitted by agreement with the 3500 Club and the DEC. A few peaks have illegal signs. Apparently they are tolerated. But there is the same 'take it down/leave it up' battle going on here (maybe the same people, I have no idea).

Tom Rankin
08-09-2014, 07:33 AM
Hmmm. I think we'd all agree that with thousands of NH48-seekers tramping through, the above certainly applies to Owls Head, though I remain amazed by how the Black Pond bushwhack still to this day is not a rutted-in cakewalk. But, really -- when we get to '200, '300, '1000 lists, just exactly how many hikers are we worried there's ever going to be? Enough to create a herd path?? Seriously???

Sadly, as much as we might wish to think/hope that it's something more noble, my experiences tell me that a major driver of the reticence really is a strong feeling of privileged exclusivity. ... Beyond the political benefits, new, like-minded friendships are a wonderful thing.

AlexAlex, you are correct, some people are this way. But there are others who are selective in what they say because they don't want to see overuse of fragile areas.

Regarding politics, even though I am the President of the 3500 Club, I'm not a really politician. Not every one who hikes a lot has to be an activist. There are other ways to give back.

RoySwkr
08-09-2014, 10:16 AM
It seems these canisters are a pretty good motivator for some people. I'm curious how those mesh with LNT - who oversees those on state/federal land?
To use an analogy, geocaching is legal anywhere in the GMNF and anywhere but Wilderness and above-treeline in the WMNF. The state of NH has proposed geocache regulations but not implemented them. There are certainly some near summits in NY and a well-known former Ranger is an active geocacher - what's the story, TR?

RoySwkr
08-09-2014, 10:22 AM
Back to the discussion of exclusivity of lists and fear of overuse of the peaks...considering most of these peaks are on public land, I don't understand why some who have already hiked the peaks think their footsteps (for sake of discussion, we'll say they were the 24th person to go there) were somehow kosher and of no impact, yet if more people come in the future, person 124's footsteps are somehow bad.
Back to the more original discussion of publishing obviously incorrect lists instead of correct ones - what do you see as the benefit of giving wrong elevations that make it harder to locate peaks on a map?

Tom Rankin
08-09-2014, 01:16 PM
To use an analogy, geocaching is legal anywhere in the GMNF and anywhere but Wilderness and above-treeline in the WMNF. The state of NH has proposed geocache regulations but not implemented them. There are certainly some near summits in NY and a well-known former Ranger is an active geocacher - what's the story, TR?
I believe Caches are forbidden in Wilderness, and require permission in Wild Forests. The cache on the BLM summit is approved. Geocache.com claims they investigate rogue caches and take them off the web if inappropriate.

alexmtn
08-09-2014, 05:24 PM
Alex, you are correct, some people are this way. But there are others who are selective in what they say because they don't want to see overuse of fragile areas.

Remember, the context for this conversation is '200/'300/'1000 list bushwhacks. It's in that context that I'm hard pressed to envision a scenario wherein one of these peaks would be at any risk at all of being trampled and herd-pathed.


Regarding politics, even though I am the President of the 3500 Club, I'm not a really politician. Not every one who hikes a lot has to be an activist. There are other ways to give back.

Tom, I'm certainly not a political activist either -- like you, I've accepted various leadership responsibilities as part of what I do to give back. I don't think of it as activism simply to be positive and welcoming to a person who's interested in furthering his/her relationship with the mountains. First off, it's a straightforward application of the Golden Rule -- and beyond that, it's simply part of sharing my enthusiasm for what I love. And happily, it also happens to be a great way to help strengthen and renew the world's wilderness constituency.

Tom Rankin
08-09-2014, 08:46 PM
Remember, the context for this conversation is '200/'300/'1000 list bushwhacks. It's in that context that I'm hard pressed to envision a scenario wherein one of these peaks would be at any risk at all of being trampled and herd-pathed.You might be surprised how many people will hike a peak it if has a decent herd path, vs no path at all. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a conversation like:

Person: Is Mt. XYZZY a nice peak?

Me: Yes.

Person: Where is the trail head?

Me: There is no trail.

Person: Ooooohhhh.........

bikehikeskifish
08-10-2014, 07:02 AM
Person: Is Mt. XYZZY a nice peak?


Is Mt. Xyzzy next to Mt. Plugh?

Tim

Grey J
08-10-2014, 08:07 AM
In a previous discussion, I defended the use of cairns on unofficial Wilderness paths. I believe Tim said that some view them as offensive and anathema to the Wilderness experience. I really don't see the point of these canisters. If you hiked that peak, YOU know you hiked it. A geocache is just more trash. How can their use square with LNT?

jniehof
08-10-2014, 03:16 PM
I'll add this bizarre thread to another one of the "Hundred And One Reasons I Don't Do Lists".
Isn't that a list? ;)

rocket21
08-10-2014, 05:17 PM
In a previous discussion, I defended the use of cairns on unofficial Wilderness paths. I believe Tim said that some view them as offensive and anathema to the Wilderness experience. I really don't see the point of these canisters. If you hiked that peak, YOU know you hiked it. A geocache is just more trash. How can their use square with LNT?
Especially considering the profane trash being written in some of the canisters, there is something that could be said about that. I don't think it's unreasonable to have something to signify the highpoint of a peak, though.


Back to the more original discussion of publishing obviously incorrect lists instead of correct ones - what do you see as the benefit of giving wrong elevations that make it harder to locate peaks on a map?
I'm pretty sure you've hiked more peaks in New Hampshire than anyone else who's posted in this thread, so I suspect you have firsthand information on pretty much any of the peaks you think are listed or omitted in error. Maybe you could just post them here, so that either the list maintainers can make changes, or so that those considering working on the lists can ensure they've hiked all of the possible peaks?

Becca M
08-10-2014, 08:56 PM
I, for one, think it's nice when I get to a summit and find an actual sign (many of which are/were historic if they haven't been "stolen") or a label on a canister (if there is one, or a pillbox, or whatever) so I know I found the correct summit. I don't copy tracks on a GPS so I do use old topos (usually on my phone) to find the summit and sometimes I get to the wrong one. Other times, I think a sub-peak is the summit but I don't find anything so I keep hunting.

alexmtn
08-11-2014, 08:41 AM
You might be surprised how many people will hike a peak it if has a decent herd path, vs no path at all. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a conversation like:

Person: Is that peak next to Mt. Plugh over there a nice peak?

Me: Yes.

Person: Where is the trail head?

Me: There is no trail.

Person: Ooooohhhh.........

Admittedly tough to follow all the themes in this multithreaded thread -- but if you remember the this sub-discussion...

Yes, I've had/heard that conversation many times as well. It supports my point. Absent some other motivation [I contend that being on a '200/'300/'1000 list is sufficient motivation for only a really small number of people], the "Ooooohhhh" crowd will indeed steer clear of such a peak, the peak won't get rutted, and hence they'll continue to steer clear. So no herd path harm done by being supportive/encouraging to the new person.

NE100 in the 3 seasons: I agree with the concern.

Tom Rankin
08-11-2014, 12:15 PM
Is Mt. Xyzzy next to Mt. Plugh?

TimIt's near Colossal Cave! :-)

Raymond
08-11-2014, 12:48 PM
Vail, Arizona, then.

RoySwkr
08-12-2014, 07:42 PM
I'm pretty sure you've hiked more peaks in New Hampshire than anyone else who's posted in this thread, so I suspect you have firsthand information on pretty much any of the peaks you think are listed or omitted in error. Maybe you could just post them here, so that either the list maintainers can make changes, or so that those considering working on the lists can ensure they've hiked all of the possible peaks?
Back in reply #11 I offered to create a correct list if they specified what criteria to use, I never got an answer from Ed or Bryan and suspect I never will because the present list is such a hodgepodge that numerous
peaks would need to change if it was standardized.

No hiking experience is needed to verify an existing list, in fact you don't even need to know how to read a map for 80% of the peaks. Just go to listsofjohn.com and compare elevations and verify col depths. LoJ
unfortunately uses a 300' col depth for unnamed peaks so some peaks can't be verified there including those that also lack 200' cols.

Raven
08-12-2014, 09:38 PM
Is Mt. Xyzzy next to Mt. Plugh?

Tim

It’s in Tai Shan or one of the nearby territories. A friend and I had grand designs of climbing it one day in search of a mythical fountain, and we got our chance, even if it was only a ghost of a chance. A few years back I recall we were eating lunch at a real fly by night kind of place, La Villa Strangiato, or something like that. Anyway, in comes this guy who says to everyone in the restaurant, “Fifty thousand dollars for safe passage to Bangkok.” He’s flashing the big money all over the place, so lo and behold, we soon found ourselves on our way to Asia. We didn’t know anything about Bangkok, but we knew with that kind of money, and being so close, we would get our shot at Mount Xyzzy. Fast forward a few weeks to 10,000 feet high on the mountainside. After a restless night, we hiked on. It was day number seven. We both had more than a few scars by then. Lessons were learned, tears were shed, but we knew we wouldn’t get something for nothing. We arrived at the pass in the little remaining available light. Then Presto. There it was. The Fountain of Lamneth, like something out of Xanadu. The reason we had come. It was simple and beautiful, so much so, it nearly made time stand still. It had taken some bravado, but we were always willing to roll the bones in those days. We always did have freewill. ;)

rocket21
08-13-2014, 06:24 AM
Back in reply #11 I offered to create a correct list if they specified what criteria to use, I never got an answer from Ed or Bryan and suspect I never will because the present list is such a hodgepodge that numerous
peaks would need to change if it was standardized.

Never got an answer? Did you contact them?

Snowflea
08-13-2014, 09:33 AM
But, really -- when we get to '200, '300, '1000 lists, just exactly how many hikers are we worried there's ever going to be? Enough to create a herd path?? Seriously???

(Responding to Post #56) I get your point: the numbers will never match those of the NE100/NH100 lists. However, when I completed those lists over 20 years ago (!), there were no discernible herd paths to peaks like Vose Spur or any of the other bushwhacks that I can remember except for Nancy and Peak Above the Nubble, the latter which had a recently, illegally cut path to the summit which Gene Daniell absolutely FORBADE! anyone from using. :rolleyes:

And yes, I realize I was part of the "problem" of developing herd paths by pursuing said lists.

As for the canisters, they ARE kind of fun to find, but I can see how they might be construed as contradictory to the LNT mantra. OTOH, I feel there are bigger fish to fry...

[Rush: Montreal Forum, spring 1982] :D

Maineman
08-13-2014, 10:52 AM
We always did have freewill. ;)

Raven is clearly fluent in Rushian.

Tuck
08-13-2014, 12:04 PM
It’s in Tai Shan or one of the nearby territories. A friend and I had grand designs of climbing it one day in search of a mythical fountain, and we got our chance, even if it was only a ghost of a chance. A few years back I recall we were eating lunch at a real fly by night kind of place, La Villa Strangiato, or something like that. Anyway, in comes this guy who says to everyone in the restaurant, “Fifty thousand dollars for safe passage to Bangkok.” He’s flashing the big money all over the place, so lo and behold, we soon found ourselves on our way to Asia. We didn’t know anything about Bangkok, but we knew with that kind of money, and being so close, we would get our shot at Mount Xyzzy. Fast forward a few weeks to 10,000 feet high on the mountainside. After a restless night, we hiked on. It was day number seven. We both had more than a few scars by then. Lessons were learned, tears were shed, but we knew we wouldn’t get something for nothing. We arrived at the pass in the little remaining available light. Then Presto. There it was. The Fountain of Lamneth, like something out of Xanadu. The reason we had come. It was simple and beautiful, so much so, it nearly made time stand still. It had taken some bravado, but we were always willing to roll the bones in those days. We always did have freewill. ;)LMAO Certainly puts Raven in the Limelight

--M.
08-13-2014, 06:53 PM
We always did have freewill. ;)

Ha haaaa! For the 2112th time, bushwacking is about The Trees! Now that I've gained some understanding of the only world that we see, I'm Finding My Way. Perhaps when I'm done bushwacking these lesser peaks, I'll do another 4000-footer and will bid a (wait for it) Farewell to King Ravine. Shining stars on summer nights!

Motabobo
08-13-2014, 07:29 PM
However, when I completed those lists over 20 years ago (!), there were no discernible herd paths to peaks like Vose Spur or any of the other bushwhacks that I can remember except for Nancy and Peak Above the Nubble, the latter which had a recently, illegally cut path to the summit which Gene Daniell absolutely FORBADE! anyone from using. :rolleyes:

And yes, I realize I was part of the "problem" of developing herd paths by pursuing said lists.Now we're getting somewhere...I'm sure there was also frustration back then that some lists were not readily accessible to everyone. In fact it was even harder to get these lists back then (the NH200 for instance). I'm also sure the complaint then was also that nobody would be interested in doing these new peaks anyway because they were obscure and they involved bushwhacking and blah blah blah (hell, you had to deal with private property as well!). You do the math : these more or less new lists were even less accessible back then and it still created a discernable impact. Imagine if everyone had had the lists...

Everyone that does these peaks do have an impact but you can lessen it by not posting lists for the whole world to see. The goal is not to forbid sharing and kill everyone's fun...I'm just surprised that we are still underestimating the power of the WORLD WIDE WEB. So let me laugh when I read something like :

I think this thread illustrates why it is so great that Ed, Bryan, and Eric made the lists available

Raven
08-13-2014, 09:16 PM
{Note: There are no purposeful Rush references in this post}

Back on topic a bit, I'm trying to look at this thread objectively. I do not yet have an strong opinion one way or the other on the publication of these lists and its pros and cons. So, I'm going to try to objectively run through a scenario focused solely on impact.

To give some framework to this and for those who do not know me, I hike about 50 mountains a year in the WMNF primarily and average two weekends a month. About 50% of the hikes are list-driven (Grid, TW, Round 5, few 52WAV). I'm truly a half-assed list hiker.

Hypothetically Speaking:

Let's assume I decide I'm going to hike the NH300 now. I have the list. There's a patch. Fresh territory. Maybe I'm driven to be one of the first 100 people to do it, so I'm going to focus on it. Before I do, I am likely going to finish the goals I am working toward. Say I finish the grid for example. Now I start on the NH300. For each hike I take on a new mountain, there is one less person on an NH48 (me). My time has shifted to new mountains, leaving a space where I had been for someone new. In that sense, there is some balance. Admittedly, much of my impact to an untrailed mountain will be more than the impact lost from the NH48 I am not hiking. It's probably not an equal exchange in the sense of erosion, impact to more pristine/less traveled areas, etc. However the loss of a few people off Franconia Ridge spread out to other, new areas also has its benefits (at least to Franconia Ridge).

Another factor I have not seen mentioned is that maybe we each are having more of an impact. I think in general, the average hiker is doing more miles than in the past. Better conditioning and better conditions, lighter gear, better technology/more sense of security out there have allowed us to go further. One hiker in the past averaged fewer miles than one today I suspect. This is at least what I have seen over my time. There are many more people doing 15-50 mile days out there now. I'm one of them occasionally, as are many on VFTT.

I see the NH48 getting busier all the time. We all do. The NH48 list has a lot to do with this as does the simple fact that AMC, Meetups, VFTT and other hiking related sites, and all other groups out there are providing a lot of opportunities/info/motivation for people to hike that were never available before. It's not all about the NH48 list, but most hikes are centered on or around the 4,000 footers. People that would have never gone out and hiked in the mountains can now find a group of people willing to accompany them. Again, there are real benefits here as well as some negative impacts from more people.

As for those gridding, it's not a HUGE number I imagine, but there are more and more of them as well (I'm one of them). The impact is entirely focused on the NH48. Maybe there are more of us sticking around after the NH48 than there used to be. I went on for the NEHH ('95) and W48 before starting current lists. With the grid, our impact continues on the NH48 at the same time all the new people are doing their first rounds. There are also some benefits to spreading that impact out and having some new areas to hike, I suppose. We are all part of the problem, and the fact is that hiking in the mountains is in an upswing right now, a big one in NH anyway. We can't fight against that river. Having a few new lists with new summits shared with people will have an impact on those mountains, but there also seems to be a good reason to believe that moving more people out of the 4,000 footers would spread impact. I will hope that those who pursue the NH200 and NH300 will be of sufficient experience to understand and practice LNT, even though herd paths may form like on the NEHH. Part of my point is that I would not expect anyone to begin by hiking the NH200 and NH300; there's a certain order to some degree anyway that makes sense.

It's an interesting question for sure, especially since I (and again, many of us here) fit the profile of the hiker that considers this very kind of thing. Those of us that opt to do these lists may be the ones having the new impact to the NH200/300, but it would also pull some people off many NH48 summits every year.

By-tor

@Maineman, Tuck, --M. Nice work! "Rushian"...that's great...and love the Lakeside Park reference. FYI - There are 21 Rush song references in post #81.

rocket21
08-14-2014, 06:21 AM
Everyone that does these peaks do have an impact but you can lessen it by not posting lists for the whole world to see. The goal is not to forbid sharing and kill everyone's fun...I'm just surprised that we are still underestimating the power of the WORLD WIDE WEB. So let me laugh when I read something like :

I'm struggling to parse this post. "Those who have already hiked the peaks had an impact, but it is reduced by not sharing the data. The goal is to share data. Those who obtain lists posted on the internet have more of an impact on the peaks than those who obtained the list via secret backchannel communications."

TEO
08-14-2014, 09:43 AM
I'm struggling to parse this post. "Those who have already hiked the peaks had an impact, but it is reduced by not sharing the data. The goal is to share data. Those who obtain lists posted on the internet have more of an impact on the peaks than those who obtained the list via secret backchannel communications."

You've almost got it, I think, but I'd change it around slightly to read:

Those who share lists by posting them on public websites have more of an impact on the peaks than those who share them in interpersonal exchanges.

RoySwkr
08-14-2014, 10:19 AM
Never got an answer? Did you contact them?
Bryan is a member of this group and has been on several times since

Apparently you are Ed's official envoy so you can tell him

Or I can suggest another alternative

My understanding is that you have a website and can post whatever you want on it. We could ask the hiking community through polls on VFTT what objective criteria should be used for such a list, make a correct list according to those criteria, and post the list along with the criteria used with the understanding that it would be altered if errors were found. That way no action by Ed or Bryan would be required.



I'm also sure the complaint then was also that nobody would be interested in doing these new peaks anyway because they were obscure and they involved bushwhacking and blah blah blah (hell, you had to deal with private property as well!).
One version of that is that some private property owners don't like publicity and others fear liability lawsuits, posting a list might cause some people to close previously-open property (remember TB and his map?) as would inexperienced people getting lost and calling for help.

A guy I know managed to obtain access to a large tract of private land in NH that had been closed to the public for decades. I warned people to keep this off the Internet especially searchable words or it might be closed again, but some people felt that posting trip reports was a public good. Apparently a board member read about this and the property was closed until the board could discuss it and as far as I know it's still closed - if you know different please leave off the name of the place in your response :-) That actually applies to this note as a NH300 list would include 2 or 3 peaks on this property.

Amicus
08-14-2014, 11:01 AM
See Post #61 in that "Mob Scenes..." thread under General Backcountry. Bowling would resolve this dilemma also.

Motabobo
08-14-2014, 11:02 AM
Those who share lists by posting them on public websites have more of an impact on the peaks than those who share them in interpersonal exchanges.That's exactly it, thank you :D I hope I'm allowed to suggest one minor change even though my English is not right up there. Replace "interpersonal exchanges" by "secret backchannel communications" because that defines better anything other than a public webpage, forum, etc. :rolleyes:

Good additional point about private property Roy. I was attempting in my earlier post to say that even some of the NE100 were on private property "some years ago".

rocket21
08-14-2014, 12:03 PM
Bryan is a member of this group and has been on several times since
I think Bryan mainly posts conditions reports at this juncture. I could be wrong, but I don't think he's posted anywhere in this thread.



Apparently you are Ed's official envoy so you can tell him

That is incorrect.



My understanding is that you have a website and can post whatever you want on it. We could ask the hiking community through polls on VFTT what objective criteria should be used for such a list, make a correct list according to those criteria, and post the list along with the criteria used with the understanding that it would be altered if errors were found. That way no action by Ed or Bryan would be required.
My understanding is that you've hiked a version of the 300, that you've researched the peaks, and that you think some peaks should be added. You have the same posting access on VFTT that I have, so it's up to you if you want to post what peaks you think are missing, or post a poll, etc. I'm not working the 200 or 300 list at this time, so it doesn't have a huge impact on me either way.

skiguy
08-14-2014, 12:28 PM
I'm not working the 200 or 300 list at this time, so it doesn't have a huge impact on me either way.

So then may I ask what was your motivation for the OP? It may not be impacting you but maybe it is impacting others. Part of what is being discussed here is whether or not information on these elusive list should be posted on the Internet or not. I would assume that you find it your duty not only to patrol the canisters on peaks that are on lists that you are not in pursuit of; but to also make sure the whole world has access to the information on those lists. Correct me if I am wrong.

rocket21
08-14-2014, 01:55 PM
So then may I ask what was your motivation for the OP? It may not be impacting you but maybe it is impacting others. Part of what is being discussed here is whether or not information on these elusive list should be posted on the Internet or not. I would assume that you find it your duty not only to patrol the canisters on peaks that are on lists that you are not in pursuit of; but to also make sure the whole world has access to the information on those lists. Correct me if I am wrong.

I've never seen you question someone else for posting an e-mail announcement on here, or question the motivations of every peak an individual climbs, but cheers for publicly calling my motivations in question rather than your previous method, when you issued red squares.

skiguy
08-14-2014, 02:09 PM
I've never seen you question someone else for posting an e-mail announcement on here, or question the motivations of every peak an individual climbs, but cheers for publicly calling my motivations in question rather than your previous method, when you issued red squares.

Sorry if you cannot answer my question. Not meant to have been a personal attack like this post. My question was only meant to add some clarity to your OP and the thread.

Motabobo
08-14-2014, 02:44 PM
cheers for publicly calling my motivations in questionI think it is a legitimate question, if you do something of a public nature, what's wrong in publicly asking the motivation to do so?

rocket21
08-14-2014, 08:11 PM
Sorry if you cannot answer my question. Not meant to have been a personal attack like this post. My question was only meant to add some clarity to your OP and the thread.


I think it is a legitimate question, if you do something of a public nature, what's wrong in publicly asking the motivation to do so?

Pretty simple...an e-mail of interest to the hiking community was sent to a distribution list that I'm a member of. Golly, the thread started of in a positive manner too.

I'm reminded of this recent thread about another list (http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?51691-NH-Fire-Tower-List). Let's see:
- the first post was pasted from an e-mail from the same person.
- the list includes many bushwhack peaks.
- the list includes peaks on private property.
- in fact, there are quite a few overlaps between that list and the NH 300 list.

I was shocked, I tell ya, shocked, when I realized your consistent criticism of the poster of an e-mail and the impact on a list on the peaks was nowhere to be found.

RoySwkr
08-15-2014, 10:23 AM
Good additional point about private property Roy. I was attempting in my earlier post to say that even some of the NE100 were on private property "some years ago".
Many of the NE100 are still on private property, and homeland security issues have multiplied

At one time the AMC did not have an official NH100 list supposedly because of private property issues, but with vast ownership changes in the North Country there are now only a couple depending on the list version not protected by easement. They have now tried to post a list but it's so full of inconsistencies that I don't really consider it viable.



I'm reminded of this recent thread about another list (http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?51691-NH-Fire-Tower-List). Let's see:
- the first post was pasted from an e-mail from the same person.
- the list includes many bushwhack peaks.
- the list includes peaks on private property.
- in fact, there are quite a few overlaps between that list and the NH 300 list.

And yes, I duly registered my complaints there about posting an inaccurate [NH fire tower] list without checking with knowledgeable people first, and corrections are slow to be made




My understanding is that you've hiked a version of the 300, that you've researched the peaks, and that you think some peaks should be added. You have the same posting access on VFTT that I have, so it's up to you if you want to post what peaks you think are missing, or post a poll, etc. I'm not working the 200 or 300 list at this time, so it doesn't have a huge impact on me either way.

I have hiked several versions of the NH300 and there is no particular reason to call any one of them correct, my complaints with the list Bryan made is that it contains many elevation errors and the peaks were not selected by any consistent criteria. What peaks should be added and removed depends on the criteria you use, i.e. should you allow Canadian peaks? It makes sense to me to let a group select the criteria.

There is little reason to develop a list unless it has a permanent home, and after the fire tower list issues I have no reason to believe that Ed will post it if submitted.

You seem to have used this note chiefly to bash so-called select cabals and the views they espouse, although they are no more select than VFTT which once required knowing a member to join, membership limited numerically, and a moderator who removed members he disagreed with, and apparently some of the notes you most disliked were posted by somebody who is also a member of VFTT. If you don't care anyway and don't want to help, maybe it's time for you to leave it alone.

rocket21
08-15-2014, 10:58 AM
You seem to have used this note chiefly to bash so-called select cabals and the views they espouse
That's quite a revisionist statement. As a reminder, here's the original post (http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?53996-New-Hampshire-200-Highest-and-New-Hampshire-300-Highest-Lists&p=414261&viewfull=1#post414261).


apparently some of the notes you most disliked were posted by somebody who is also a member of VFTT.
The filth in the canisters has been written by a number of individuals and has targeted quite a few as well. Frankly, some of the notes belong in the hands of law enforcement.


If you don't care anyway and don't want to help, maybe it's time for you to leave it alone.
I'm assuming from your earlier posts that by help, you mean you want me to be your carrier pigeon. If that's the case, then no, I'm not interested in that role.

The front page of the web site (http://www.48x12.com/nh300/nh300.html) has an e-mail address contact. As noted by another poster, they are prompt and professional in their e-mail communication.

skiguy
08-15-2014, 10:14 PM
Pretty simple...an e-mail of interest to the hiking community was sent to a distribution list that I'm a member of. Golly, the thread started of in a positive manner too..
Hopefully you will be able to give us all the instructions on the Secret Handshake for obtaining this list.

rocket21
08-16-2014, 05:28 AM
Hopefully you will be able to give us all the instructions on the Secret Handshake for obtaining this list.

As per the first post on this thread, the NH 300 list can be obtained from this web site (http://www.48x12.com/nh300/nh300.html). No secret handshake required.

Tim Seaver
08-16-2014, 08:38 AM
I wonder what John Muir would make of this thread.

( I'm going to bookmark it in case anyone ever asks me why I don't do "peakbagging")

RoySwkr
08-16-2014, 09:43 AM
>You seem to have used this note chiefly to bash so-called select cabals and the views they espouse

That's quite a revisionist statement. As a reminder, here's the original post (http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?53996-New-Hampshire-200-Highest-and-New-Hampshire-300-Highest-
Lists&p=414261&viewfull=1#post414261).

I believe that "chiefly" is appropriate as posts #24, 30, 37, 44, 46, 58, 60, 64, 75 outnumber #1



The filth in the canisters has been written by a number of individuals and has targeted quite a few as well. Frankly, some of the notes belong in the hands of law enforcement.


I agree that illegal statements should not be made in peak registers, how many did you report?



I'm assuming from your earlier posts that by help, you mean you want me to be your carrier pigeon. If that's the case, then no, I'm not interested in that role.


I offered you the opportunity to post a consistent list on your website since I have no confidence that Bryan would even if submitted, but apparently you want to rave about cabals instead of providing useful information

And you seem to have no problem making one-way deliveries :-)


I wonder what John Muir would make of this thread.

( I'm going to bookmark it in case anyone ever asks me why I don't do "peakbagging")
You just go ballistic when someone suggests that NH48 speed records should be done by the rules of the organization that made the list and have been accepted by thousands of people, instead of by some rules invented by a guy from out of state (that you denigrate in the "48" movie) that have been followed by a handful.

Tim Seaver
08-16-2014, 12:04 PM
You just go ballistic when someone suggests that NH48 speed records should be done by the rules of the organization that made the list and have been accepted by thousands of people, instead of by some rules invented by a guy from out of state (that you denigrate in the "48" movie) that have been followed by a handful.

If by "going ballistic", you mean mercilessly mocking the feeble attempts of a handful of people ( ok, person) to enforce a set of rules on an event which has nothing to do with their hiking organization, then, yeah....guilty.

Something which is actually consistent with my general thoughts about "peakbagging" as a method of exploring mountains - that it tends to attract people with a somewhat regimented and authoritarian bent. People who like lists and rules and people doing things by the book. THEIR book.

The ridiculous back and forth on this thread certainly reinforces that perception as accurate.

summitseeker
08-16-2014, 12:17 PM
Hi Tim,

I would first like to admit that as "laid back" as some people perceive I am, the truth is I am in fact a pretty type A personality.

That being said, I agree that there is a rigidness on certain lists, criteria, and rules that leans farther to the extreme of type "A-ism". This is in no way a backhanded remark to the other contributors on this thread, but what I find most interesting is the deafening silence of so many frequently posting members on this particular thread. Not everyone has been silent but a lot of people have made a single post and opted to steer clear of this conversation (myself included until today).

Maybe some of us should just agree to disagree at this point.

Hike what you want and be happy about what you accomplish. FWIW and all that ;)


Be well,

Z :D

Tim Seaver
08-16-2014, 01:15 PM
Hi Tim,

I would first like to admit that as "laid back" as some people perceive I am, the truth is I am in fact a pretty type A personality.



Ah-hah! One of the stealthy types!

I shouldn't have painted with such a broad brush - it's more of a sub-set of the peakbagging world that I have issues with. I also think you are right about the lack of response by many members on this thread.

There are plenty of people who engage in it who somehow retain their humanity ( I kid, I kid) , but like a powerful drug, it can take over your psyche, and suddenly you find yourself arguing over maps and lists and canisters and secrecy and who did what first... instead of just enjoying being on a mountain somewhere. And that's a shame, isn't it?

Amicus
08-16-2014, 03:54 PM
I'm not exactly a regular poster these days and have in fact made a modest contribution of one post to this thread already. There are, however, plenty of perfectly honorable reasons for even the most frequent posters to sit this thread out. They could have no interest in any version of these Lists. I don't, even though I already had at least one of them - the secret, official version I got a few years ago from a highly official source, at a time when I still thought I was interested in completing same. Shortly thereafter, I came to my senses and realized that redlining, not peakbagging, is my true calling. (It seems that "just hiking" isn't quite enough for me - no doubt one of my many character flaws).

Then there is a more general reason to eschew such threads. As Cicero or some other guy in a toga may once have remarked:


Noli contendere commingendo contra Mephitem Mephitem.

Snowflea
08-16-2014, 05:08 PM
I wonder what John Muir would make of this thread.


A few guesses:

ďI am losing precious days... I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains to learn the news.Ē

"Only by going alone in silence, without baggage, can one truly get into the heart of the wilderness. All other travel is mere dust and hotels and baggage and chatter."

"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wildness is a necessity; and that mountain parks and reservations are useful not only as fountains of timber and irrigating rivers, but as fountains of life."

Thinking he would probably tell everyone to go for a hike! :rolleyes:

arm
08-17-2014, 06:28 PM
" never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it "


yeah, but sometimes you wake up next to a fox ;)

it's about time someone posted something people can get angry about ... we were running out of reasons to hate each other ...

.

timmus
08-18-2014, 06:27 AM
Pffff, I'm so glad I'm not sitting in front of the computer as much as I use to, such a waste of time. Anyway I already change diapers at home, can't do it here !

TJsName
08-18-2014, 12:53 PM
Ah-hah! One of the stealthy types!

I shouldn't have painted with such a broad brush - it's more of a sub-set of the peakbagging world that I have issues with. I also think you are right about the lack of response by many members on this thread.

There are plenty of people who engage in it who somehow retain their humanity ( I kid, I kid) , but like a powerful drug, it can take over your psyche, and suddenly you find yourself arguing over maps and lists and canisters and secrecy and who did what first... instead of just enjoying being on a mountain somewhere. And that's a shame, isn't it?

http://xkcd.com/1095/

:)

RoySwkr
08-18-2014, 07:34 PM
If by "going ballistic", you mean mercilessly mocking the feeble attempts of a handful of people ( ok, person) to enforce a set of rules on an event which has nothing to do with their hiking organization, then, yeah....guilty.

I have no problem with Kenyans showing up and winning the Boston Marathon if they have the ability, but I see no reason to allow them to decide to shorten the course in perpetuity long after they're gone. I feel the same way about Cave Dog.

Based on the '48' movie, you don't think Cave Dog should show up and win a New Hampshire event but you have no problem with him telling us what rules to use. Do you feel the same way about Kenyans?



Something which is actually consistent with my general thoughts about "peakbagging" as a method of exploring mountains - that it tends to attract people with a somewhat regimented and authoritarian bent. People who like lists and rules and people doing things by the book. THEIR book.

Peakbagging has fewer rules that organized running, and no waivers required :-)
http://www.wakelydamultra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=4&Itemid=16

even bowling has more rules, which may be why it's promoted by lawyers :-)
http://www.rulesofbowling.com/What-are-the-Rules-&-Regulations-of-Bowling-&-how-do-you-play.php

rocket21
08-19-2014, 06:34 AM
I believe that "chiefly" is appropriate as posts #24, 30, 37, 44, 46, 58, 60, 64, 75 outnumber #1
In the past few weeks alone, you've taken to VFTT to specifically defame multiple people by name (either by trying to disqualify a mountain accomplishment or criticizing their apres-hike work). At least Dean Martin's bashfests were catered.




I agree that illegal statements should not be made in peak registers, how many did you report?
The targeted individuals are aware of the statements discovered to date and threats and can do as they please.




I offered you the opportunity to post a consistent list on your website since I have no confidence that Bryan would even if submitted, but apparently you want to rave about cabals instead of providing useful information
Your offer in post number 11 was for them to delete the 'bogus' list in order for you to help. In post number 50, you approximated a 10 peak difference. Your most recent post was post number 114. If your intention was for the list to be inclusive and accurate, simply listing the missing peaks would have saved a lot of time (I would suggest that most working on or reposting the list would hike any known omitted peaks for completion's sake).

Instead, you've been trashing Ed and Bryan (and others), even going on to publicly state that Bryan had never responded to you (when in fact you had never even contacted him) and then saying you have no confidence in him. I have no confidence in your intentions of trying to improve the list. While I respect your hiking accomplishments, I feel like publicly communicating with you in this thread at this point is partaking in virtual dumpster diving.

Motabobo
08-19-2014, 09:28 AM
In the past few weeks alone, you've taken to VFTT to specifically defame multiple people by name (either by trying to disqualify a mountain accomplishment or criticizing their apres-hike work).Maybe some things are better left inside a remote canister after all :D

I also think heroes cannot suddenly turn into victims :confused:

David Metsky
08-19-2014, 09:42 AM
Moderator Note
OK, everyone step away from the keyboards and go for a hike. Let's everyone calm down and play nice.

Tim Seaver
08-19-2014, 10:50 AM
I have no problem with Kenyans showing up and winning the Boston Marathon if they have the ability, but I see no reason to allow them to decide to shorten the course in perpetuity long after they're gone. I feel the same way about Cave Dog.


Filed under : Ridiculous Analogies

Raven
08-19-2014, 05:23 PM
There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas

Can I get a look at the NH400? ;)