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View Full Version : Irene Closures & Redlining rules



Maineman
09-20-2014, 10:05 AM
I'm curious as to how redline finishers have dealt with the numerous Irene closures & what are the "rules of the game" regarding closed trails?

TJsName
09-20-2014, 10:26 AM
According to the Sacp Ranger we met last weekend, Dry River is pretty much done, and they are finishing up the West Isolation branch. Doing Rocky Branch next year, so hopefully most of this will be moot.

Raymond
09-20-2014, 12:50 PM
Regarding red-lining, how persnickety are red-liners? There are countless places where the trail divides. If a red-liner realizes he or she is off the main line, does he or she walk back to cover that missed segment, no matter how short, or just shrug and continue on? What if thereís a blowdown? Climb over or crawl under it, no matter how impossible that may be? Or just go around? Stick a leg into it as far as it will go, then do the same from the other side, to cover as much of the actual trail as possible? Or not worry about it? And what about all those spur trails to views, campsites, and springs? Do they need to be followed?

Iím just wondering how anal retentive (or whatever) I need to be. Not that Iím really working on it, but Iím trying to be aware of it. You know, just in case.

Maineman
09-20-2014, 01:40 PM
According to the Sacp Ranger we met last weekend, Dry River is pretty much done, and they are finishing up the West Isolation branch. Doing Rocky Branch next year, so hopefully most of this will be moot.

This is all good news TJ!

Raymond, for myself I try and make an honest effort to hike every trail on the list. If there is a blowdown I don't let it bother me that I have to detour a few feet. If the trail is a muddy mess, I slosh right through the muck! Spur trails and viewpoints that apply are listed on the redlining spreadsheet. There is no requirement to visit each tentsite & the privy at a campsite for example, just to "check it out". I try and checkout any spurs of viewpoints not on the list as well, because I love views!

There are several spur paths on the AT between Hanover & Moosilauke that I never visited while section hiking the AT, and I plan to revisit them.

I have on several occasions been uncertain if I have actually hiked a short connecting trail in the past so I always go back and hit them again.

The spirit of the game imho is to truly have seen all aspects of the Whites. Like any game with semi-arbitrary self imposed rules not following the list is only cheating yourself. I believe most redliners do it because they absolutely love the White Mountains and redlining is a wonderful excuse for getting out there regularly. The "collector" in me also loves putting my red sharpie to the map, what a satisfying feeling!

On my PCT thru-hike hikers around me would from time to time take rides around sections closed due to fires (vs walking an alternate trail/ roadwalk designated as the official alternate temporarily) I do believe in "HYOH - hike your own hike" but I also feel that skipping a couple hundred miles of a long distance trail and calling it a thru-hike in a small way diminishes the accomplishment of others.

Becca M
09-21-2014, 07:13 PM
Honor system - best effort... all spurs/camping areas. If a trail is officially closed, you don't need hike it,,, but, I did, except the pieces T.S. Irene took away :)

John in NH
09-22-2014, 07:46 PM
I have a somewhat related question: What do you do about trails that are closed like the western end of the York Pond Trail or Mt. Cabot trail if you are redlining the 28th edition? Just zero them out? That feels like cheating but when its a question of legal property access I can't think of any other solution.

The rules are at 48x12.com (http://48x12.com/red-lining/rules.html) in terms of making a good faith effort to visit all campsites, scenic spurs, and other paths not mentioned in the spreadsheets.

Greg YEAH!
09-22-2014, 08:39 PM
I have a somewhat related question: What do you do about trails that are closed like the western end of the York Pond Trail or Mt. Cabot trail if you are redlining the 28th edition? Just zero them out? That feels like cheating but when its a question of legal property access I can't think of any other solution.

The rules are at 48x12.com (http://48x12.com/red-lining/rules.html) in terms of making a good faith effort to visit all campsites, scenic spurs, and other paths not mentioned in the spreadsheets.

Have you ever seen the Suicide Ride scene in "Dances with Wolves" where Kevin Costner jumps on the horse and rides through the middle of the field with his arms out and everyone shooting at him? Well, that is how I approach all closed trails on private property. I kiss my crucifix at the start, close my eyes, and just make a run for it.

TJsName
09-22-2014, 10:13 PM
I have a somewhat related question: What do you do about trails that are closed like the western end of the York Pond Trail or Mt. Cabot trail if you are redlining the 28th edition? Just zero them out? That feels like cheating but when its a question of legal property access I can't think of any other solution.

The rules are at 48x12.com (http://48x12.com/red-lining/rules.html) in terms of making a good faith effort to visit all campsites, scenic spurs, and other paths not mentioned in the spreadsheets.

Another solution would be to use the most recent (29th) version, which removes the closed trails from the list.

As for the the trails closed by the FS, I'm willing to bet anyone who bothers to redline has either already hiked them, or will hike them once they reopen. I think the spirit of the game is to explore all corners of the whites. It's very much a personal honestly policy, so I go best 'best effort'. If you end up a bit off trail in winter, it still counts. Same with blow down avoidance and going up/down stream to find a better crossing.

John in NH
09-23-2014, 04:56 PM
Another solution would be to use the most recent (29th) version, which removes the closed trails from the list.


I am aware of that option, but I started intentionally redlining in 2010 with the 28th edition (and hiking in the whites in '03 when the 27th edition was out). So for personal reasons, I'd really like to stick with the 28th edition, and the rule on 48x12 state the 28th is acceptable. I am only at 51% complete, so with two kids under 4 years I probably won't finish until there is a 31st edition, so don't want to keep changing the goal every 3 years.

TJsName
09-23-2014, 07:25 PM
I am aware of that option, but I started intentionally redlining in 2010 with the 28th edition (and hiking in the whites in '03 when the 27th edition was out). So for personal reasons, I'd really like to stick with the 28th edition, and the rule on 48x12 state the 28th is acceptable. I am only at 51% complete, so with two kids under 4 years I probably won't finish until there is a 31st edition, so don't want to keep changing the goal every 3 years.

Haha - I figured it had crossed your mind. I don't think I'll mind switching versions as new ones come out (since I always prefer to reference the newest guide anyway). The 27th edition will always have a special place in my heart as I was searching for (and finally found) that picture on the cover. I'm curious if someone can redline all the versions of the AMC guide. I guess you could start here: http://www.textbookx.com/single_product.php?utm_source=Froogle&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=price_comp&affiliate=froogle&action=buy&upc=9780559776533&cond=new&price=31.43

dug
09-23-2014, 07:31 PM
Curious, since this doesn't appear to be an AMC-sponsered event, and the "rules" don't appear to be on an AMC-related site, why MUST one use an AMC published guidebook?

I started doing this on a whim 15 years ago, using a Delorme map...it was the only one big enough to cover a blank spot on a wall, and covered the entire Region. It was just a way to see where my dog has gone, mostly, and how to show that there were so many trails not climbed after completing a NH4K. Huge expanses of untravelled land still to get to.

Not that I'll ever finish....

TJsName
09-23-2014, 11:19 PM
It's a matter of standardizing the game. While there is continued debate over the method to use for 4k peak inclusion, it seems what counts as a trail is less of a hot topic (although how trails should be maintained does create some... contrast). I suppose if there was another comprehensive list of trails with full descriptions that would work as well. I'm not sure how many 'fringe' hiking trails don't make it into the AMC guide that might be in others, but the AMC guide is a great reference and is pretty comprehensive for the Whites. By deferring all the decisions to the editors of the AMC guide, it leaves the focus on the actual hiking and visiting every odd-numbered intersection (n-1)/2 +1 times.

IQuest
09-24-2014, 09:17 AM
The criteria seems pretty clear to me. Hike all of the trails in the current WMG. At the time of your finish, if there is a new trail in the new guide, why not hike that too? If a trail has been closed and you have not hiked it by the time you finish, don't worry about it. Or hike it anyway as extra credit. We all like to walk right? A couple more miles won't hurt. I wouldn't worry ablout reroutes or briefly loosing the trail in winter, unless it's several miles. As has been stated before, there are many, many more miles of trail than just ones that lead to 4000 footers.

madmattd
09-26-2014, 11:39 AM
The Dry River and Isolation Trails were just reopened earlier this week. Rocky Branch is scheduled to be repaired next summer. I believe that is the only remaining Irene trail closure now? (I realize some roads are still shut).

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/whitemountain/news-events/?cid=STELPRD3818212

TJsName
09-26-2014, 04:54 PM
Stuff around Greeley Ponds, the Flume, Kettles area are still being repaired/rerouted.

IQuest
09-26-2014, 06:31 PM
Stuff around Greeley Ponds, the Flume, Kettles area are still being repaired/rerouted.

I'm no trail maintenance expert but I wonder why that area is taking so long. They were pretty involved with the reroute of Greely Ponds Tr last year in May. Seems like the Dry River Tr opened up fairly quickly once they decided to start the work. Is it due to the difference in trail status?

TJsName
09-26-2014, 11:27 PM
I'm no trail maintenance expert but I wonder why that area is taking so long. They were pretty involved with the reroute of Greely Ponds Tr last year in May. Seems like the Dry River Tr opened up fairly quickly once they decided to start the work. Is it due to the difference in trail status?

That would be my guess - I'm guessing the Waterville wants to keep those are XC ski trails, so they will definitely be wider. The GP trail almost looks like a road diverging from Livermore. I've actually never done any of those trails, so I don't know if it was already that wide, but it certainly isn't a wilderness trail! I also think they are putting in another new bridge further upstream and moving the trail out of the alluvial fan (http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5393808.pdf) to mitigate future problems. I don't think the DR trail had any bridge work - just a lot of relo. I'm guessing someone here knows even more about this though. :)

Edit: This thread might be more appropriate for future discussion on the GP area trail work: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?49603-Greeley-Ponds-and-Flume-Brook-Trail-Repair-Project&highlight=greely+ponds+trail

brobichaud
09-27-2014, 09:43 AM
The Dry River and Isolation Trails were just reopened earlier this week.

This is good news... looks like I know what I'm doing next week! :rolleyes::D

cooperhill
10-01-2014, 07:17 AM
I'm no trail maintenance expert but I wonder why that area is taking so long. They were pretty involved with the reroute of Greely Ponds Tr last year in May. Seems like the Dry River Tr opened up fairly quickly once they decided to start the work. Is it due to the difference in trail status?

Different Forest Service ranger districts. Different projects. More planning and decisions involved in dry river I'd guess. Also different trail crew staffing levels among districts.