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rup
01-02-2015, 12:17 PM
Weather Chnl has been reporting 75-100 car crash on I-93N just N of exit 24 (Ashland) due to white-out ~10am. Cars ablaze, etc. Must be a mess.

marnof
01-02-2015, 01:10 PM
Weather Channel hyping the story? I'm seeing reports of 35-car pileup, which is bad enough. Hopefully no one is seriously injured.

David Metsky
01-02-2015, 01:49 PM
Initial reports were higher. The numbers have been revised down, and the scene has been cleared and the highway is opened.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/01/02/snow-squalls-cause-massive-crash-on-interstate-93-in-nh/

summitseeker
01-02-2015, 03:08 PM
I was on that section right around 9:30 and most people were proceeding at low speeds. I'm glad no one was seriously injured or killed.

Be well,

Z :D

hiking lady
01-02-2015, 05:09 PM
I just missed getting involved with that by chance. I can see why it happened, it went right into white out conditions.

Greg YEAH!
01-02-2015, 05:50 PM
Does the lack of winter hiking knowledge correlate to the lack of winter driving knowledge? Anybody catch how many of the plates were out of state? WMUR was reporting one critical injury.

BISCUT
01-02-2015, 06:04 PM
In those conditions it only takes 1 car, instate or outa state to cause it. Sad, but so many times it's people who just should have stayed home. It's all about knowing and experience. I'm some bad ass LE....but I've been running the 91 VT corridor in a lot of nasty weather where I know what to expect when it's a blizzard and that tractor trailer unit with QB plates is pushing me to pass....blindness for 20 seconds or so. I've driven as a cop and civi for soooo many miles. I have to say VT and Northern NH drivers are almost always courteous and good to go. CT is horrid! I have to get to VA to see a driver as selfish as CT drivers.

rup
01-02-2015, 06:12 PM
Thanks for the update. Glad to hear it was relatively 'harmless'.

TJsName
01-02-2015, 06:14 PM
Does the lack of winter hiking knowledge correlate to the lack of winter driving knowledge? Anybody catch how many of the plates were out of state? WMUR was reporting one critical injury.

Much like in hiking, experience is part of it, but equipment is too.

My brother lives out in CO, and I-70 frequently has issues with winter weather starting a chain reaction of issues. There was quite a bit of hub-bub about it being out-of-state drivers (big tourist destination) driving out of their element. when CDOT dug deeper they figured out it's really people not taking car of their cars and driving around in the snow with bald tires (I.E., the problem was being caused by locals). They are doing a big push to make people aware of the bald tire issue. It's a big point out there as traffic sometimes slows down, and then cars have trouble getting moving again going uphill, and thus exacerbate the problem.

https://www.codot.gov/news/dailyclips/november-2014-clips/november-14-2014

KRobi
01-02-2015, 06:57 PM
My wife and I decided to get a late start and go up and do Liberty. Luckily for us she decided to throw together a beef stew in the crockpot. This had us leave the house a minute or so after our planned departure. We missed the pile up (but enjoyed about an hour of waiting just north of exit 24). The first responders had to get by those of us in the traffic jam. Just before Ashland (exit 24) there was a light dusting, stuff that cars just blow off the highway and all lanes were dry. There was a plow truck plowing the bit in the breakdown lane which caused me to say (sarcastic tone) what a waste of time and energy. Within 30 seconds of this we passed Exit 24 and hit the white out where the snow was thick and heavy and immediately covered the road. We were able to stop but I didn't think the truck in back of us would (jackknifed) but pulled it out and stopped. It continued snowing hard for a few more minutes but then cleared. As far as the drivers in the pileup the plates were from all over. Many people with skis. I would be the first to say that many people drive like Newtons 1st law of motion does not apply to their vehicle. It does, but I don't know if that would have mattered as this came on so quickly. Seemed to be more like a black ice issue where you are going along ok and then wham.

Greg YEAH!
01-02-2015, 08:25 PM
I would be the first to say that many people drive like Newtons 1st law of motion does not apply to their vehicle.


That is sooooo middle-school-science teacheresque. I would have to say that an E-Class Mercedes travelling at 80mph up I-93 exerts approximately....let's see 4,000 lbs x 80mph = 320,000 lbs miles/h, and 1 lb mile/h is equal to 0.202773933 m kg / s which is equal to 65,000 m kg/s. So the force is equal to the final momentum minus initial momentum divided by the time so let's say it took approximately 2 seconds to release the momentum...........................that equals 32,500 Newtons.

TJsName
01-02-2015, 09:13 PM
I would be the first to say that many people drive like Newtons 1st law of motion does not apply to their vehicle.


That is sooooo middle-school-science teacheresque. I would have to say that an E-Class Mercedes travelling at 80mph up I-93 exerts approximately....let's see 4,000 lbs x 80mph = 320,000 lbs miles/h, and 1 lb mile/h is equal to 0.202773933 m kg / s which is equal to 65,000 m kg/s. So the force is equal to the final momentum minus initial momentum divided by the time so let's say it took approximately 2 seconds to release the momentum...........................that equals 32,500 Newtons.

Perhaps that truck was carrying Fig Newtons. I bet a fully loaded trailer can hold at least a million fruited cakes, which should be enough to stop 35 cars.

psyculman
01-03-2015, 02:58 AM
I would be the first to say that many people drive like Newtons 1st law of motion does not apply to their vehicle.


That is sooooo middle-school-science teacheresque. I would have to say that an E-Class Mercedes travelling at 80mph up I-93 exerts approximately....let's see 4,000 lbs x 80mph = 320,000 lbs miles/h, and 1 lb mile/h is equal to 0.202773933 m kg / s which is equal to 65,000 m kg/s. So the force is equal to the final momentum minus initial momentum divided by the time so let's say it took approximately 2 seconds to release the momentum...........................that equals 32,500 Newtons.

And THAT'S why I drive a Civic!

But, seriously, it is almost always there are at least three sightings of NH State Police on the drive up 93 to Littleton. YOU ARE FORTUNATE up there to have State Police who actually DO something. I see in my short 10 minute drive to work, everyday for 17 yr. on Rt.2/190 Mass. State Police pushing the fast lane line of cars out of the way. At 80 mph. They all get out of the way, and, the SP vanishes over the horizon, and they all get back out into the fast lane, and resume 80 mph. If I could, I would give YOUR guys a hug, and buy them coffee. Deadly accidents happen all the time, because Mass drivers don't have anything to worry about.

KRobi
01-03-2015, 06:30 AM
I would be the first to say that many people drive like Newtons 1st law of motion does not apply to their vehicle.


That is sooooo middle-school-science teacheresque. I would have to say that an E-Class Mercedes travelling at 80mph up I-93 exerts approximately....let's see 4,000 lbs x 80mph = 320,000 lbs miles/h, and 1 lb mile/h is equal to 0.202773933 m kg / s which is equal to 65,000 m kg/s. So the force is equal to the final momentum minus initial momentum divided by the time so let's say it took approximately 2 seconds to release the momentum...........................that equals 32,500 Newtons.

Wow, that is a response that a stay at home (for two more days) math teacher with too much time on his hands would give. :)

DayTrip
01-03-2015, 10:31 AM
I thought the issue with this crash was visibility, not road conditions? I've driven in the snow plenty and when everything is fine and all of a sudden it starts snowing like the next ice age is coming there is not much you can do. If you suddenly drop down from 70 mph to 30 mph to adjust to the conditions while the guy behind you is just coming up on the conditions he's going to plow right into you. It's like a sudden patch of ground fog. All is well and then suddenly you're blind. Even if everyone reacts exactly as they are supposed to the differences in speed and distance will likely cause an accident. If the traffic is heavy you get a mess.

Having said that, people do drive like idiots: driving 10 feet off your bumper at 80 mph, driving with no comprehension of the conditions, etc. I do a TON of driving for work and hiking (about 81,000 miles in the last 21 months) and the "stupid driver" phenomenon is not unique to NH, locals or tourists. It is a Northeast epidemic.

Breeze
01-03-2015, 12:14 PM
My husband and I were enjoying lunch yesterday when WMUR 9 went into disaster mode with this incident.

I, personally, nearly fell off my stool, when one of those interviewed was complaining that " my GPS never gave me any warning."

C'mon, REALLY ???????? Do people actually let their GPS act as their auto pilot ?

Breeze

summitseeker
01-03-2015, 01:54 PM
My husband and I were enjoying lunch yesterday when WMUR 9 went into disaster mode with this incident.

I, personally, nearly fell off my stool, when one of those interviewed was complaining that " my GPS never gave me any warning."

C'mon, REALLY ???????? Do people actually let their GPS act as their auto pilot ?

Breeze

I think that person needs to upgrade from the standard GPS to an R2D2. The R2D2 will alert pilots and drivers with a series of whistles and beeps that, over time, can be understood as "droid speak".

Then again, if Luke Skywalker had heeded R2's warnings he never would have crashed into the swamp in the Dagobah System and met Yoda.

And we all know how that story would likely end ;)


Be well,

Z :D

Driver8
01-03-2015, 04:25 PM
My husband and I were enjoying lunch yesterday when WMUR 9 went into disaster mode with this incident.

I, personally, nearly fell off my stool, when one of those interviewed was complaining that " my GPS never gave me any warning."

C'mon, REALLY ???????? Do people actually let their GPS act as their auto pilot ?

Breeze

Funny. The Waze app tracks the speed of its users and warns of reported hazards. I wonder how quickly it warned users: "Slow down, accident ahead." Probably took a minute or two, but might have helped cut down on ppl driving unawares into the pile-up. I use it all the time for any drive of more than 50 miles, sometimes for shorter ones, too. Don't think Siri/Apple and Google Maps do this as well as Waze yet.

Stan
01-04-2015, 09:11 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how many drivers tailgate and/or drive too fast for conditions, even under some of the worse conditions. I've been in a number of white outs in my travels, both fog and snow, some temporary, and the first thing I do is turn on the hazard lights and slow down to the point that I feel I can stop in the distance I can see ... sometimes that means 20 mph or less. Even in better visibility there is no shame in slowing to 40 or less when the roads start to get slick.

Coming home from one winter roadtrip where over 10,000 miles we hadn't seen so much as a fender bender ... until we hit wet snow in Pennsylvania and in the course of the next two hours saw 12 ... yes 12 ... jackknifed or overturned 18 wheelers ... and you'd think those are the professional drivers who should know better. Idiots. Lucky they didn't kill anyone 'cause you don't win a battle with 18 wheelers ... the lawyer for your estate might but you don't. There were also 4 cars in various states of distress in the median or the ditch.

With a lot of miles behind me, literally and figuratively, I'm pretty conficdent as a safe driver but one thing has always baffled me. In a "falling rock" zone, do you slow down in case there are falling rocks or do you speed up and get out of the hazard pronto?

TJsName
01-04-2015, 10:59 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how many drivers tailgate and/or drive too fast for conditions, even under some of the worse conditions. I've been in a number of white outs in my travels, both fog and snow, some temporary, and the first thing I do is turn on the hazard lights and slow down to the point that I feel I can stop in the distance I can see ... sometimes that means 20 mph or less. Even in better visibility there is no shame in slowing to 40 or less when the roads start to get slick.

This is a great topic as many a winter hike often involves some kind of winter driving (even if it's just through the notches), so I bet a lot of us have given it some thought.

I'm fairly confident that the most dangerous part of traveling with traffic is the speed gradient, regardless of which side of the spectrum a driver may fall on. If conditions are poor and 'traffic' is generally going 45, it seems just as reckless to me to go 25 as it does to go 65. It would be my hope that someone not comfortable driving with the flow of traffic in bad conditions would just not drive, as confidence (but not cockiness) is important. If someone feels that traffic is going too fast, but they are confident that their speed is reasonable, then pull over and let people by and continue at your own pace. I think most drivers recognize when someone (even themselves) is driving much too fast for traffic conditions (tailgating/intimidating, lots of lane changes, etc), but driving too slowly is also a hazard as it forces traffic through a choke point (especially if the offending driver is in a passing lane). This results in lots of extra lane changes by other drivers and the slowing down of at least two lanes of travel as a result - which I would argue is overall a more dangerous situation for everyone. Of course, this is just conjecture and opinions on my part - I'd be fascinated if someone had any data on the phenomenon. :)

I have a few friends that don't like driving in the snow. I frequently recommend practicing in a snowy parking lot to get a feel for how your car handles in the snow, as well as how easily it can slide and how to correct a slide. There are some pretty fun driving courses people can take too that can really boost winter driving confidence. You could also take up racing on Newfound Lake!

Anyway, just don't be like my dad, who while driving down Bethoud Pass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berthoud_Pass) at 5 under the speed limit created a queue of around 15 cars behind him. I suggested he use one of the [many many] pull-outs to let people pass. He replied, "Why would anyone want to go any faster than this?" and continued driving. This is now an oft-quoted phrase whenever we get stuck behind an oblivious or self-appointed pace car. :)

KauaiGuy
01-05-2015, 06:01 AM
Saturday I borrowed my wife's car to drive to the Cog base and hike the Jewell. All-wheel drive WITH four studded snow tires. We started using studs on her car seasonally because we have a 600' driveway that sometimes ices over. I can't speak to the cars behind you, but studs will give you stopping and steering control. If you can see it, you won't hit it. I just surveyed the laws in 6 New England states. Studs are allowed in season in ALL six. As it turned out, Saturday's snowstorm waited until I was safely back, but the base road was snow packed and no gem. Today's studs aren't terribly noisy, and at $12 extra per tire, offer great security for those of us who hike up North.

jniehof
01-05-2015, 07:00 AM
until we hit wet snow in Pennsylvania and in the course of the next two hours saw 12 ... yes 12 ... jackknifed or overturned 18 wheelers ... and you'd think those are the professional drivers who should know better. Idiots.
It's entirely possible the trucks went into the ditch suddenly braking or otherwise evading idiots in smaller vehicles who cut them off. I see that a LOT.

peakbagger
01-05-2015, 07:09 AM
I am not so sure on TJs theory, as a "local" the general observations are the "lemming" theory is in effect for winter driving conditions in the whites. A pack of out of state SUVs will group together and exceed the safe travel speed forgetting that unless they have studs, modern technology has given them the tools to go far faster in marginal traction conditions than they can safely stop. In slippery conditions, pulling over out of the travel lane to let them pass is not a good option as sometimes, the shoulder can be glare ice while the travel lane is marginally passable. In some cases pulling over into the shoulder even with a bit of snow can cause a spin by the driver pulling over. Generally, the inpatient SUV driver will instead elect to make an unsafe pass and on occasion will be rewarded with a trip into the ditch. On slippery winter days, the vehicles in the ditch seem to be over whelmingly out of state SUVs. It may be that the locals just stay home and thus the SUVs are a much higher percentage of the traffic on the road.

The event that occurred on I-93 did not appear to be a traditional white out rather it was apparently a combination of a white out and a road surface that froze when the snow hit. Thus once someone started to slide, the cars behind had no chance to avoid the initial vehicle that had slid.

sdways01
01-05-2015, 11:03 AM
Friday I hiked the Wildcats and on the way there the radio was talking about how well traffic was moving with some people still on vacation. After the hike, one of the first news stories I heard was about the state confirming 35 cars involved in 2 crashes near/in Ashland with one tractor trailer truck catching fire after a car went under it. It was nice that I was coming in from the north for once instead of the south. One good thing about spending New Years weekend at camp near the top of the state.

DayTrip
01-05-2015, 11:18 AM
Funny. The Waze app tracks the speed of its users and warns of reported hazards. I wonder how quickly it warned users: "Slow down, accident ahead." Probably took a minute or two, but might have helped cut down on ppl driving unawares into the pile-up. I use it all the time for any drive of more than 50 miles, sometimes for shorter ones, too. Don't think Siri/Apple and Google Maps do this as well as Waze yet.

Waze is an awesome app. Use a lot for work. It warns of hazards 1/2 mile in advance, but that depends on someone reporting in the first place. It is likely no one had posted about it before the fun began. No substitute for actually watching the road.

DayTrip
01-05-2015, 11:21 AM
Coming home from one winter roadtrip where over 10,000 miles we hadn't seen so much as a fender bender ... until we hit wet snow in Pennsylvania and in the course of the next two hours saw 12 ... yes 12 ... jackknifed or overturned 18 wheelers ... and you'd think those are the professional drivers who should know better. Idiots. Lucky they didn't kill anyone 'cause you don't win a battle with 18 wheelers ... the lawyer for your estate might but you don't. There were also 4 cars in various states of distress in the median or the ditch.


Most 18 wheelers are involved in accidents as a result of stupid car drivers doing dumb stuff without realizing how much more difficult it is to stop 10,000-12,000 lbs of moving vehicle as opposed to your 3,000-4,000 lb car. I'm not saying they're perfect but I do enough driving to realize what a car can do to a truck.

DayTrip
01-05-2015, 11:24 AM
It's entirely possible the trucks went into the ditch suddenly braking or otherwise evading idiots in smaller vehicles who cut them off. I see that a LOT.

EXACTLY. See the same thing in my travels all the time.

psyculman
01-06-2015, 03:28 AM
Saturday I borrowed my wife's car to drive to the Cog base and hike the Jewell. All-wheel drive WITH four studded snow tires. We started using studs on her car seasonally because we have a 600' driveway that sometimes ices over. I can't speak to the cars behind you, but studs will give you stopping and steering control. If you can see it, you won't hit it. I just surveyed the laws in 6 New England states. Studs are allowed in season in ALL six. As it turned out, Saturday's snowstorm waited until I was safely back, but the base road was snow packed and no gem. Today's studs aren't terribly noisy, and at $12 extra per tire, offer great security for those of us who hike up North.

Thanks, I have always been told they are not legal in Mass.

bikehikeskifish
01-06-2015, 06:07 AM
http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/laws/studded-tires/

Massachusetts

Studded tires are permitted November 2 to April 30 unless otherwise authorized by Registrar.


Tim

Hillwalker
01-06-2015, 06:20 AM
Most 18 wheelers are involved in accidents as a result of stupid car drivers doing dumb stuff without realizing how much more difficult it is to stop 10,000-12,000 lbs of moving vehicle as opposed to your 3,000-4,000 lb car. I'm not saying they're perfect but I do enough driving to realize what a car can do to a truck.

You are a little low on the weight of a fully loaded rig. They can top out at around 80,000 pounds.

Stan
01-08-2015, 10:00 AM
Most 18 wheelers are involved in accidents as a result of stupid car drivers doing dumb stuff without realizing how much more difficult it is to stop 10,000-12,000 lbs of moving vehicle as opposed to your 3,000-4,000 lb car. I'm not saying they're perfect but I do enough driving to realize what a car can do to a truck.

I'm sure there are drivers causing trucks to get into accidents but I think you overstate it when you say "most". Even those caused by the car rather than the truck are not always the result of stupidity. Besides, blaming cars may be a convenient alibi when it comes time to preserving one's license or job. The truck driver has a responsibility to drive to conditions too, keeping the weight and momentum of the vehicle in mind. I think they'd go slower than a car ... and in my experience, that is sometimes the case.

Returning to my observation of the dozen jacknifed and overturned 18 wheelers, are you saying that the weather caused car drivers to all of a sudden get stupid and start cutting off trucks? Not an incident on a 10,000 mile road trip until we hit the weather ... and then the accidents were mostly 18 wheelers by a 3:1 ratio even though cars exceeded trucks by perhaps a similar ratio.

... and Woodstock, CT is a beautiful town.

Stan
01-08-2015, 10:14 AM
I'm fairly confident that the most dangerous part of traveling with traffic is the speed gradient, regardless of which side of the spectrum a driver may fall on. If conditions are poor and 'traffic' is generally going 45, it seems just as reckless to me to go 25 as it does to go 65. It would be my hope that someone not comfortable driving with the flow of traffic in bad conditions would just not drive, as confidence (but not cockiness) is important. If someone feels that traffic is going too fast, but they are confident that their speed is reasonable, then pull over and let people by and continue at your own pace. I think most drivers recognize when someone (even themselves) is driving much too fast for traffic conditions (tailgating/intimidating, lots of lane changes, etc), but driving too slowly is also a hazard as it forces traffic through a choke point (especially if the offending driver is in a passing lane). This results in lots of extra lane changes by other drivers and the slowing down of at least two lanes of travel as a result - which I would argue is overall a more dangerous situation for everyone. Of course, this is just conjecture and opinions on my part - I'd be fascinated if someone had any data on the phenomenon. :)

Anyway, just don't be like my dad, who while driving down Bethoud Pass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berthoud_Pass) at 5 under the speed limit created a queue of around 15 cars behind him. I suggested he use one of the [many many] pull-outs to let people pass. He replied, "Why would anyone want to go any faster than this?" and continued driving. This is now an oft-quoted phrase whenever we get stuck behind an oblivious or self-appointed pace car. :)

I agree. I also agree with your Dad and sometimes have different obscenities for people who pass under extreme conditions and for people who slow me down. Don't they all know that whatever my speed is it is the correct one!?

Seriously, you are correct that when one's comfort level of speed starts to back up traffic, then make way somehow. That's just good manners. My example was for the white out and in that case, no one can see how many cars are in back, or in front. Obviously, it depends on the road you're on, too. I've seen people pull over and stop under some conditions. No shame in that and far less inconvenient than an accident.

TJsName
01-09-2015, 04:17 PM
I am not so sure on TJs theory, as a "local" the general observations are the "lemming" theory is in effect for winter driving conditions in the whites.

Lemmings is awesome: https://archive.org/stream/gg_Lemmings_1992Probe_Psygnosis_Sega/Lemmings_1992Probe_Psygnosis__Sega.bin?module=game gear&scale=2

BISCUT
01-09-2015, 05:33 PM
While not so prevalent on 93 (yet, yes I know they are there as well) the truckers with Quebec plates are beyond dangerous on the 91 corridor. Due to my job and my hobbies, I have a lot of snow and ice driving hours under my belt. Not all truckers cause issues, but a huge majority of independent owned truckers sure as hell do!! And this is from the guy who will ride your ass in the snow at 50mph and beg you to just move over. For me a lot of issues are caused by those who are scared or inexperienced. If so it's ok, but move aside. I tend to move a tad bit past the posted speed limit, but if you come up on my azz I'm aside in a second. I don't own that road, and neither do you. We collectively pay for it. Common courtesy is to move aside.

Moving aside: If you drive often all over NE and NY you already know, if you see CT plates.....they won't move aside. I have had friends visit from Texas, VA (yikes), FL, GA and even they saw right away how rude the CT drivers are. Amazing to me, CT is even more self absorbed than NY drivers. Avoid a lot of issues, if someone is on ur ass let him/her by and if someone is driving crazy, safe route is them ahead of you where YOU can control how you react to them. Big trucks, let them by!!! They have so much mass behind them, even empty, it's just a no brainer.

dug
01-09-2015, 08:01 PM
The problem with riding my ass in a snowstorm is that maybe I'm going 40, and the car next to me is going 30, I'm not moving. Plus, the lane change with a build up of snow in the middle can be tricky, so you riding my bumper doesn't really help much.

I'll move when I'm ready, and when I feel it's safe, not when you want me to.

BISCUT
01-10-2015, 06:00 AM
The problem with riding my ass in a snowstorm is that maybe I'm going 40, and the car next to me is going 30, I'm not moving. Plus, the lane change with a build up of snow in the middle can be tricky, so you riding my bumper doesn't really help much.

I'll move when I'm ready, and when I feel it's safe, not when you want me to.

Let's assume there is no one in your way to move aside, that was my intended situation. Where a single driver "decides" for all what is a safe speed. Scared, inexperienced, snow driver should not be driving. If you drive in snow, you see them all over, braking into corners when simply removing your foot from the pedal works best; not having enough speed to ascend a steep slope YET braking just before the incline; etc... These are the people who get stuck half way up the hill and slide down or cause everyone else to go around and fender bender time.