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McRat
03-10-2005, 08:52 AM
Hi everyone!

Desk jockey wondering if anyone has any links, book titles, or advice to offer on conditioning for a midweek 4-day (possibly solo) Pemi-loop in mid May.

I have access to a well-equiped gym, and tend to get there 2-3x/week -mostly doing cardio. I try to get out a twice a week for local walks with pack for 3-10 miles. I also plan on doing a few more NH4Kers between now and then.

I expect I could "survive" the trip as is, but I wanted to be as prepared as possible so I could really enjoy the trip.

She-who-must-be-obeyed rarely allows me this much time off and I want to make the most of it. ;)

skiguy
03-10-2005, 09:04 AM
A word of advice. The way conditions are now be prepared for snow even in May. The Twinway Trail especially is "Notorious" for holding snow late into Spring. This can be a challenging hike that time of year.

bruno
03-10-2005, 11:23 AM
"She-who-must-be-obeyed rarely allows me this much time off and I want to make the most of it." ;)

hey bro! just work up to runnin' say 4 or 5 miles a day at a good clip. you'll be fine. no need to lift weights in my opinion. stay lean.

and try to get "she-who-must-be-obeyed" under control. believe me, your life will be so much better if you do! :D

Sherpa John
03-10-2005, 11:28 AM
Eat your wheaties! :eek:

Ridgewalker
03-10-2005, 11:46 AM
I reconmmed doing five mile walks in local woods. I have done that before and have done hiking in our town forests. If you want to do a mountain, I reconmend the Welch-Dickey loop, Mt. Major, and Manadnock. Have fun in thd Pemi, its worth it!

McRat
03-10-2005, 11:52 AM
Thanks for the replies.

As far as running (or local hike practice) goes... should I be taking rest days between sessions, or is the whole point to get the ol' body putting out daily mileage?

JohnL
03-10-2005, 11:58 AM
The old adage of push hard every day is false. You get stronger on your recovery days. Every other day is fine.

John

focusonbalance
03-10-2005, 12:04 PM
Definitely keep doing the cardio work. IMO, some quad and ham work would always be beneficial to improving your endurance. Do some low weight high reps and work in some good high weight sessions in between finishing with killer 100's. Total fatigue. Also, do some bushwack snowshoing with a fairly heavy pack. Working the butt, back, pecs and shoulders with some weights wouldn't hurt you either. Basic total body condidtioning. Be a billy goat up there, why walk on two legs when you could use four? Just my two cents as a trainer. Have fun!

focusonbalance
03-10-2005, 12:07 PM
Oh, did I mention nutrition? Very important to feed those muscles well. Graze with good carbs and protein mixes all day, low fat, and tons of H2Oand of course eat your veggies :)

Pete_Hickey
03-10-2005, 12:10 PM
I'll take a different perspective. Running something like 5 miles just isn't that much.. Less than an hour. It'll build up strength, what you want to do is build up endourance as well. What did we used to call that.... acid?? No, it was LSD (long slow distance)

By working hard for a short amount of time, you are training your body a to get all its energy from glycogen. What you should be doing, is working on conditioning your body to work at a slow steady pace, and train it to pull its energy from other sources.

If you're interested in speed, you need a combination of the two. If you just work at LSD, you'll be like a diesel. You can go forever, but you won't be fast. If you mix it with running hard for a short amount of time, you'll be increasing your speed as well.

Neil
03-10-2005, 12:30 PM
McRat,
This is my favourite subject so now I'm gonna bore the heck out of you and everybody else! :D

I've given it lots of thought,effort and reading. My personal experiment of one has yielded some observations.
The only surefire way to get into shape for a day of hiking is by hiking all day. Therefore anything else we do is a facsimile and not as good. Don't despair, if you run an hour a day and then rest for the 2 days prior to your hike it'll help a lot.

I found that by tilting a treadmill up to 25% (today's only go to 15%), and wearing a backpack with 20 odd pounds in it I got a decent workout walking as fast as I could sustain for one hour. Trouble was, after an hour I was bored numb. So I switched to running and I agree with Pete, take LSD :eek: and spice it with 1 kilometer of speed (start with only 1 or 2 k per week of speed and build). By speed I don't mean flat out but definitely faster than your ave. speed. This is called a Tempo Run and theoretically is best done at your so-called aerobic threshold. Run on a hilly course if possible.

Post-run you want to profit from a physiological window and immediately consume sugar and protein. Then again an hour later. This will set you up for tommorow's workout.

When not hiking I like to train 5 or even 6 days per week but mix it up with hard/easy, slow/fast etc. When hiking a lot (2 big days per week) I work out a LOT less. Several sets of low load, high rep (20?) resistance training has gotta be good but I hate it so much that I never do it.

bruno
03-10-2005, 12:54 PM
dude, pete and neil know what they're talkin' about. good advice. my whole deal with the 5 mile thing was that i thought you were just kinda startin' out since you said you had a sedentary job and all. if you have the time, definitely go long aerobically. this is key. i'm sure neil is better-versed in this, but my take on it is try to go over an hour at a good pace. i try to go 9 or 10 seven minute miles on long days. i try to do this twice a week, with runnin' at a good pace (say 7.30) for 7 miles the other days. but some folks knees can't take this so maybe some other aerobic work every now and then is good. i just like runnin' and my knees seem able to take it so that's what i do. and try to do it on trails if possible. i live close to the middlesex fells outside boston and it's ideal for runnin'. my advice is to avoid pavement like the plague.

i never lift weights cause i just don't like it. i tell myself i don't want to carry the extra weight that bulkin' up would add, but the truth is i just don't like liftin'. but i know that it's probably good too unless you start lookin' like giambi or bonds. :D

there's a book called "conditioning for outdoor fitness" (or something like that) that is good too. if you really want to go 'core have a look at mark twight's book "extreme alpinism."

oh yeah, and stay away from fat.

DougPaul
03-10-2005, 01:11 PM
Most exercises emphasize the production of energy (ie uphill) by the muscles--don't forget the absorbtion for the downhills. Typical exercises would be lowerings (eg deep knee bends on one leg down, both legs up or just walking downhill perhaps carrying a pack).

For me, a nice exercise is just to put a 30-45 lb pack on my back and walk up and down a nearby hill-- ~200 vert ft and 2mi rt. Covers many bases, some aerobic, some uphill, and some downhill.

Doug

Dugan
03-10-2005, 01:30 PM
And don't forget post work out stretching.

I would also suggest doing some some balance exercises.

Gris
03-10-2005, 01:53 PM
As a FORMER (way long ago former) athlete i will offer a different, just common sense angle

don't overtrain, esp. as you near your "dream trip" - you wanna be well-rested before you start. Like JL says listen to your body and rest it when it says to!

don't overtrain period - consider your age, any injuries, etc. you wanna build yourself up not break yerself down. gradually work up to whatever your goal/exercise regimen is

don't try to pack in so much "fun" that you traverse a lot more miles per day on your dream trip than you ordinarily would. if your body starts to breakdown it will cease to be fun. many people like to haul most of their stuff to base camps and peak bag, etc. w a small daypack...

thoughtfully consider how you will replace fluids and electrolytes lost on long days yer not used to. that's usually the cause of "bonking" - not tired or weak muscles (at least in most adult males)

i agree w most of the advice, like go for endurance, stay away from weight lifting, try to simulate hiking as much as possible and 4-sure get used to your pack weight.

you soundlike yer aleady in pretty good shape. have fun, stay warm and post some pics when ya get back! :D

jfb
03-10-2005, 01:58 PM
Here's a book that emphasizes the LSD approach: http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=16-0071343318-1

And this link describes more about the program:
http://www.chuckiev.com/page/page/961846.htm

Pete_Hickey
03-10-2005, 02:09 PM
And don't forget post work out stretching.

I would also suggest doing some some balance exercises.

Ahhh.. The dog-person knows of what (s)he speaks. Stretching is important. I know, because I never do it, and my physio-therapist is always yelling at me for that, "You know, you wouldn't have gotten this new injury if you did your stretching like I told you."

Some things tend to tighten up some muscles (eg cycling). Stretching keeps you more flexible, and you'll find it easier to get over blowdown, or up big steps.

Oh... and by the way... you may be wondering why I never listen to my physio therapist. Well, she's kind of cute, and by getting injuries again and again, I get to keep seeing her.

Neil
03-10-2005, 02:13 PM
Gris' advice just might be the best yet. Last summer I was getting into shape for a 2 week trip to the Cdn. Rockies. We planned on scrambling every single day anywhere from 3000 to 5500 feet of vertical so I was going 2 and 3 times a week to the dax and running 2-4 days a week. Guess what? I got Achilles tendinitis 6 wks before our departure. Luckily, it was mild and 10 days of total rest and self treatment(and deconditioning :( ) allowed it to heal and the story ends happily.

Bruno, 10 miles @7:30/mile is awesome! My inferior connective tissue just won't take it. Lucky you!

Neil
03-10-2005, 02:23 PM
Ahhh.. The dog-person knows of what (s)he speaks. Stretching is important. I know, because I never do it, and my physio-therapist is always yelling at me for that, "You know, you wouldn't have gotten this new injury if you did your stretching like I told you."

Some things tend to tighten up some muscles (eg cycling). Stretching keeps you more flexible, and you'll find it easier to get over blowdown, or up big steps.



I use to stretch and stretch and then stretch some more. When I did my training (I'm a chiropractor) stretching was thee thing. Now it's being downplayed in the literature (pop and pro), studies suggest it may increase injuries. This is starting to resemble the butter vs. margerine debate. Anyway, I quit stretching based on the scientific principle that it bores me and haven't noticed any subjective difference.

For all those who don't like to stretch try this on: if you work a muscle in the weight room and it gets bigger that is seen as good adaptation. If you run and hike and your hamstrings, quads, calves etc. shorten then maybe that is good adaptation too. I really don't know.
More input from the forum please....

BTW, was Timothy Leary a runner?

Rick
03-10-2005, 02:53 PM
Oh... and by the way... you may be wondering why I never listen to my physio therapist. Well, she's kind of cute, and by getting injuries again and again, I get to keep seeing her.

Pete,
Glad to hear your Physio therapist is a hottie - What's your Psycho-Therapist look like?????? :D :D :D (as I am ROTFL) :D :D :D

OK, OK, OK....
On a serious note, as long as this is a fitness thread, I am going to start to bike-commuting to work in April - Does anyone else commute to work via bike?? (I know Pete does it all winter long in the frozen arctic).
It's an 11 mile ride each way, and I think I can take bits of the Quabbin Aquaduct out of Clinton, which might be kind of cool. I would think that should keep me in killer shape all year.....

I'd really appreciate any bits of distilled wisdom, please.
Thanks
Rick

Artex
03-10-2005, 03:01 PM
I totally agree with the running. Especially hill running. It's the best way to get in shape for backpacking, IMO.

Pete_Hickey
03-10-2005, 03:09 PM
oes anyone else commute to work via bike?? (I know Pete does it all winter long in the frozen arctic).

Yeah, I know you know, Rick, but let me say this about that:

Even though the time and distance may be small, day after day, week after week, year after year bike riding pays off. I find that when the 'bike season' starts, all I have to do to prepare myself for a 100+ mile ride, is to go for a 3 hour ride the weekend before.

That everyday stuff really seems to provide a base.... BTW, I've got over 22,000 miles of bike riding in the winter... and I only do 16 miles (total) a day. As well as providing the physio/cardio stuff, THAT kind of riding gets my body used to being in the winter/cold....plus it also burns the stree from the day job.... plus... I write songs while commuting.

GO FOR IT!

Trekkin
03-10-2005, 03:31 PM
I stairstep with a loaded pack for an hour/4x week leading up to my big trips. We usually do a 2 week trip to the Rockies and multiple weekends and overnights on the right coast, and I've found between the trail time with the pack and the stairstepping I'm usually doing quite well.....typically better than my compadres who live at altitude while hiking in their backyards. :o

With the stairstepping, I start slowly....maybe a 20lb pack (my 10-14 day pack is usually 3x that) and work with that for a few weeks, and build up to where I'm carrying 75lbs or so....then, when I get on the trail the 60lbs almost feels light (well, initially, anyway). Garners lotsa strange looks at the gym, but that's alright.....serves me well. Everything else that's been said is great advice as well......just thought I'd add my .02

mavs00
03-10-2005, 05:30 PM
Lots of good advice. I'll throw in my long-winded, boring 2 cents too. This comes from a competitive coaching background in a fitness sport (swimming) and my own pursuits (like triathlons, hiking & occasional road races).

Essentially, training for a multiple day, long, intense hiking ventures are similar to training for a long endurance races (triathlons, marathon). The basic premise and goal will be to take your current fitness level and increase your overall aerobic capacity and oxygen uptake levels (VO2 Max). This will allow you body to tolerate longer periods of harder work without shifting from an aerobic energy system to an anaerobic system (which will quickly lead to failure). This is a primary training goal for ALL endurance based athletes.

If your really interested in it, I'd suggest loosely following a training regiment for those type events (-LIKE THIS TRIATHLON ONE- (http://www.trinewbies.com/tno_10wOly.asp)) or an 8-10 week marathon program. These programs are designed to increase fitness and your personal VO2 MAX so that you'll be able to perform significantly longer during prolonged aerobic activity (like a multi-day intense hiking). It also will help you keep focused on the goal (your trip) and you'll get in GREAT SHAPE.

Don't be put off by the fact that it’s a triathlon program. You can mix and match as you go. Hate Swimming? Substitute the stair stepper, elliptical machines or any other AEROBIC (not start/stop sports like basketball) activity instead. It really doesn't matter. It's all about increasing fitness. I like the triathlon program, because they add lots of variety. To be honest, many of these programs are virtually the same (physiologically) and they are designed to increase fitness and prolong aerobic activity. They also work in provisions to allow for rapid recovery from occasionally anaerobic bouts (bike hills, run hills, steep climbs, etc) that will translate nicely to the mountains when you will be required to go anaerobic (breathless) on those punishingly steep sections ;).

Don't believe me? Check out this recommended -DENALI MOUNTAINEERING- (http://www.alpineascents.com/denali-train.asp) program. At it's most basic level, it the same frigging program as many of the triathlon, running, cycling and other endurance based programs :eek:

IN THE END, there is NO better training for multi-day pemi hikes, than........well, more multi-day pemi hikes.

CaptainJim
03-10-2005, 05:43 PM
Oh, did I mention nutrition? Very important to feed those muscles well. Graze with good carbs and protein mixes all day, low fat, and tons of H2Oand of course eat your veggies :)


Fat is actually a better fuel to burn for long distance endurance events than carbs

Capt. Jim

ps: Pete & Neal in post 10 & 11 are absolutely correct aboutr the training regimen LSD with a little faster than average mixed in... you want your body to train to burn more than glycogen (sugar) hence also my statement that fat is a better long distance fuel

TJH
03-10-2005, 05:55 PM
McRat,

If you're gym has one of these

http://store.yahoo.com/gofitness/st70ptst.html

you should use it. My gym has one. IMO it is probably the best trainer for mountain hiking other than actual mountain hiking itself. It is like a mini escalator that you can control like a treadmill. From a slow climb to an all out sprint up stairs. Very nice. TJH

Halite
03-10-2005, 06:01 PM
As usual, a lot of solid advice. As a fellow desk jockey, I understand the challenge. I used to bike commute 35 miles round trip and didn't have to think much about how I was going to get a workout. Now I ride the train into Manhattan--more time sitting on my butt!

Although the LSD advice is excellent, remember that anything is better than nothing. Better to get out even for a few minutes than skip the workout because it won't be major. Better to lift weights for five minutes to work a couple muscle groups than skip it because you can't do full reps. If it improves fitness or gets your heart going, it'll help on your trip.

I used to have such an organized workout regimin. Now, my desk-jockey, train-riding, parenting, multi-tasking workout mantra is: anything, anytime, anywhere.

Neil
03-10-2005, 06:26 PM
Fat is actually a better fuel to burn for long distance endurance events than carbs


But...
Fats burn in a carbohydrate flame and once you run out of carbs you've bonked.
And...
One of the results/goals of training is to get your muscles to preferentially burn fat (unlimited supply) as opposed to sugar (limited supply).
No matter how in or out of shape you are, the harder you go, the more of that precious sugar you burn. That's why pacing is important.

carole
03-10-2005, 06:29 PM
McRat: Practice some swimming too...those river crossing may require it. :eek: ;)

Other than what everyone else said..hike, hike, hike.

Peakbagr
03-10-2005, 06:38 PM
My training regimen used to be 25 to 37 miles of week running, with the long Sunday runs on rolling hills 10 miler @7:30 to 8:00 pace, run 4x more times a week, and a deathmarch(either pace, distance or both) hike on Saturdays. A combination of back injury, work and family knocked the hell out of my routine and I'm struggling to get back to any kind of shape. I'm really interested in this thread as my current level of fitness is such that a consecutive day of hiking is not in the cards and I'd like to get back to an approximation of my former shape.

mavs00
03-10-2005, 06:55 PM
Fat is actually a better fuel to burn for long distance endurance events than carbs

That's not exactly accurate. Fat becomes more important in LSD training (i.e fitness, endurance based stuff) than it is in purely anaerobic power sports (Lifting, football, shotput, etc..), but it's still not as focal as Carbohydrates are. I would consider mountain hiking (with a pack) as moderately intense aerobic endurance work for the generally fit person and that fuel mix is still about 70/30 - 65/35 Carb to fat burning.

Thats if your a FIT hiker, unfit ones go anaerobic early and often and thus have a higher carb/fat ratio :D. Mall walking and flat easy jogs may be primarily fat burners, but adding some up, rough terrain and even as little as a 10-12 lb daypack, and you'll quickly be into a more carb burning mode.

Here are a couple interesting articles that give a brief overview; -ARTICLE 1- (http://www.ontherun.com/news/0213.htm) and -ARTICLE 2- (http://www.ontherun.com/news/0224.htm).

------------------

TJH - That look like an interesting machine. Every now and again, for giggles, I'll hit this 6 floor stairwell (at the college I coach at) and do a stair workout. It's somewhat amusing and I try to time it so no-one else is around and it goes something like this;

15 minute warm-up (light running)
4 to 6 x (3 sets of 6 floors - 1 stadium run {every step}, 1 walk-up, 1 strides {every other step})
15 minutes warm down (light jogging)

gives you like 70-100 floors and probably a similar workout to this machine. Be warned, that a brutal work out for anyone NOT named (PIN PIN, Tim Seaver, IceNSnow and those like them :))

sapblatt
03-10-2005, 07:30 PM
Hello McRat -

Lots of good advice is on these pages...here is another one seeing that you live in Malden. Mohamed Ellozy's website lists some great long distance hikes in the Middlesex Fells and the Blue Hills. I used to live in Melrose and did a lot of running and walking in these areas. Here is a link to his page on the Fells:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ellozy/strenuous2.html

You can do about 15 miles in there without repeating yourself.

I am planning a similar trip to yours for mid-May probably out for a night at Galehead and a night in Zealand sandwiching in around 9 peaks during the three days and two nights. (Part of my demented idea of trying to finish my 4000 footers before I turn 40 in the Fall...I still have 30 to go). In fact, after hearing about the Twinways reputation for holding late snow, I may rethink this trip, but we'll see...as long as it is bare bootable I will likely do it.

As for my own body and time, I have found that as long as I get outside and walk hard and/or run 3-4 times a week I can enjoy my hikes and do reasonably close to booktime as long as my pack is not too heavy and the trail is not too crazy. I hiked about 26 miles last fall over the Wildcats, Carter Notch and Wild River areas over three days and felt great.

Everyone is different so listen to your body and be sure to rest too...it seems to me that people oftern overdo it and injure themselves in training.

Espy
03-10-2005, 07:53 PM
My opinion: a combination of weight lifting and endurance cardio workouts would be the most beneficial. When I was training to do an AT thru hike, I power walked all over the place, (in the mountains when I had time, around my neighborhood or on the treadmill when I didn't) sometimes wearing a 35-40 pound pack, as well as my hiking boots. The more hills, the better. I also lifted weights 4 times per week, including step-ups w/ weights, and reverse lunges. Whatever I had time for, I did, and I mixed it up. I felt very strong from day one.

As long as you have some rest days now and then, I think any workout you can squeeze in will increase the enjoyment of your hike. Good luck!

mommabear
03-11-2005, 12:07 AM
I found that by tilting a treadmill up to 25% (today's only go to 15%)

I think overall, people need to find out what's right for them. When I get ready to head back out for long hikes, I try to simulate the hikes on my treadmill. When I was shopping for a treadmill, I was told too that they don't go over a 15% grade, but I found one from NordicTrack called Adventurer and it goes up to 25%. You can get the option to program it to simulate hikes in the Tetons too. For myself, I also build up my upper-body stength because it makes a difference when I need to lift my body weight up on rocks and other steep areas.

albee
03-11-2005, 01:43 AM
I just wanted to chip in with my athletic training advice.

I'm a distance running coach and a former highly trained runner myself, and from my experience, I know that longer distance activities like biking, hiking, and running marathons are 99% aerobic exercise. You may go anaerobic in a sprint at the end or while you are climbing a particularly steep hill, but like I said, most of the time you are in your fat-burning, aerobic mode.

This said, I firmly believe in eating a balanced diet during the day and during exercise. Trans-fatty acids are the only subgroup I would stay away from. In my experience hiking, the best foods to eat are not all sugars/carbs. You see people eating trail mix because it usually contains peanuts, chocolate, raisins, cereal.... a healthy mixture of proteins, fats, and carbs. This will provide you with sustained energy, rather than spiking your glucose level like an all-carb snack would.

If you had a breakfast of bacon, eggs, and pancakes, you would have a far more successful day of hiking than if you had a 2 liter bottle of Coke and dry cereal. My favorite hiking foods are baked beans, Snickers bars, and oatmeal; all are cost-efficient and have surprisingly well-balanced nutritional qualities (energy-wise, at least) although candy bars have trans-fat in them which is bad for heart disease.

As for training, I would recommend one longer run during the week, preferably at a conversational pace over a moderately hilly loop. I would lift weights to build strength in your quads, hamstrings, and calves, as well as your shoulders, arms, and back. It would also be good to mix in 30-45 minutes of steady cardio such as running, elliptical machines, or stairmasters 3 to 4 times per week. Allowing time for recovery is important.

Some other things to consider: hikers are usually sore at the end of the day due to getting beat up on the downhills. Dehydration causes a decrease in recovery time, so drink fluids often. Try to spread out your effort and don't hike so hard as to put yourself into oxygen-debt. 5 smaller meals are better than 3 big ones.

Thanks for listening to my 2 cents. :)

Rick
03-11-2005, 09:08 AM
That everyday stuff really seems to provide a base.... BTW, I've got over 22,000 miles of bike riding in the winter...
GO FOR IT!

I only wish I had the could do that - It absolutely amazes me.
Somewhere, I think I still have a piece you wrote long ago about finding $5 bikes and riding them with Sorel boots and crashing into snowbanks to stop.
I thought it was a great read. :)

pedxing
03-11-2005, 09:57 AM
I definitely agree with Bruno and Sapp on the Fells. Nothing prepares you for backpacking like walking around ungraded land with a backpack. You won't get the huge elevation gains at the Fells, but its convenient to Malden - there are varying loops. Several times I've used the Fells to help get myself back into trail condition.... just put on some boots (your heaviest pair, perhaps), put some weight in your pack and pick a route around the Fells. The trip will also give you some idea of how you'll do on the trail. On top of everything, you can have some fun there.

If you have a dog, your dog will love it.

I also do a lot of bicycling when trying to become trail worthy, as its a good low impact (and fun) way to get some conditioning. I mix that up with walks around town and trips around the Fells and --- Ok this is a bit geeky --- but I also go up and down stairs with hand weights sometimes for a quick bit of excersize when I don't have time to get out to somewhere with ups and downs.

McRat
03-11-2005, 10:19 AM
I'm not sure if there is a section of the fells I haven't hiked yet. It is embarassing to note that I have probably done the majority of my miles within its boundries.

One of my old favorite walks was to start on the Malden side by Brazil St, take the rock circuit trail past the cascades across the fellsway, hit the basin reservoirs, and then take the Cross Fells to the MDC/rink. Walk along Quarter-mile Pond, along Spot Pond to cross under 93 to the Sheepfold, up by Dark Hollow pond to Bear Hill. From there head around the Winchester reservoirs and head for Wright's Tower, take the Skyline and Cross fells back to Malden.

Lately, I'm really taken by the charms of Breakheart Reservation is Saugus. It's on my drive route home, the sun is setting later, just pop on the pack and do a couple of hours. While not much over 300ft, there are quite a few steep little hills on the Ridge Trail and throughout the reservation.

Thanks to everyone for all their great information. I'm sure I'll wind up begging advice again before I set out. ;)

Neil
03-11-2005, 10:24 AM
McRat, confused enough yet?

We havn't even got around to discussing slow and fast twitch muscles and training strategies that target each group specifically. Or hypobaric chambers for peakbaggers. :D

One thing everyone agrees on is that if you go out and get some exercise your body will adapt and subsequent exercise will be easier!

McRat
03-11-2005, 10:48 AM
Yeah, Neil, I'm confused.

I'm just as mystified that for all our technological advances, the scientific community has yet to reach consensus on what what we should be eating, and has focused on creating less-healthy foods instead.

I never even knew I needed LSD so badly until this comment thread... and now I've achieved oneness with the floor, the walls keep on melting, and I'm in no better shape for hiking. Confusing indeed.

Rick
03-11-2005, 11:28 AM
OK Gurus -
Here is a question for you -
If cross training at 6 AM (Jog, Elliptical trainer, lift weights & Swim) for and hour and a half, would you normally eat a small meal beforehand?

I usually eat breakfast at the office after my workout, but if it is better to do so beforehand, please let me know - Also, I'm curious what others do....
:)

DougPaul
03-11-2005, 11:32 AM
Some other things to consider: hikers are usually sore at the end of the day due to getting beat up on the downhills.

Training the muscles to absorb energy (eccentric contractions) can be a big help here. There is some recent evidence that the eccentric contractions use a different metabolic pathway than the concentric (energy producing) contractions.

See post #13 in this thread for some of my earlier comments.

Doug

Neil
03-11-2005, 11:57 AM
OK Gurus -
Here is a question for you -
If cross training at 6 AM (Jog, Elliptical trainer, lift weights & Swim) for and hour and a half, would you normally eat a small meal beforehand?

I usually eat breakfast at the office after my workout, but if it is better to do so beforehand, please let me know - Also, I'm curious what others do....
:)


Rick, I think you should have a small meal first. At the very least have a glass of OJ. If your session is long drink something like gaitor aid during.
In the morning your liver and blood sugar is pretty well depleted. Also, your diurnal cortisol levels are at their highest. Exercising under these conditions will promote protein degradation in ordere to provide energy using a biochemical pathway called gluconeogenesis. (Gluco= glucose, neo = new, genesis= creation) Your body “creates” sugar from your muscles!
If you drink coffee the caffeine will increase the cortisol level even more.
Also, a nutritionist told me that aerobic conditioning in the fasting state results in lots of fat getting released into the bloodstream.

focusonbalance
03-11-2005, 12:50 PM
Be wise, lots of great advice, but I would be leary of the "only train like this" stuff. Three words of advice, balance, variety, and moderation. Endurance training is wonderful, I do it myself, but there will be steep runs (up and down) and you will be wearing plenty of extra weight. I don't know you're age or injury history but the joints can only stand up to so much pressure. What good is having awsome endurance when your knees or back won't allow you to get out there to use it? You can have both. WHo says lifting will make you look like Arnold, bulking up is one of the most difficult things to do! I hope you will be flying around the hills for many years-injury free, if you can do that without strengthening then all the power to you!!! I hope to be trekking past 90, the body is a machine, treat it well and it will treat you well in return.

Puck
03-11-2005, 02:52 PM
damn you guys are making this complicated....gluconeogenisis can occur by the deamination of amino acids from the break down of larger protiens. I t can also occur due to the break down of lipids into AcetylCo A....ok ok I found a picture. http://home.wxs.nl/~pvsanten/mmp/mmp.html

You know what is funny...during Biochem class I thought about hiking...now when I hike I think about Biochem. :p

TJH
03-11-2005, 03:03 PM
OK Gurus -
Here is a question for you -
If cross training at 6 AM (Jog, Elliptical trainer, lift weights & Swim) for and hour and a half, would you normally eat a small meal beforehand?

I usually eat breakfast at the office after my workout, but if it is better to do so beforehand, please let me know - Also, I'm curious what others do....
:)


I agree with Neil, but I am not as smart as Neil :)

Through my late teens and into my mid twenties I was quite the avid weightlifter/bodybuilder. This is my answer to your question through my experience. If your goals are merely fat burning, ( trying to get lean / cut ), without sacrificing muscle mass, then I believe that drinking some water first thing in the morning, then doing about 20 - 30 min. or so of cardio in your fat burning range on a bike or treadmill would be the way to go. I would then eat about an hour after finishing the cardio. A good meal consisting of protein, carbs, and a little fat.

If you are performance training, ( working out to get better, faster, stronger at peakbagging or so forth ), then having a small meal beforehand would be the way to go. Something maybe 10 g. of protein and 30 grams of carbs. Of course the water too.

1 1/2 hours of working out on an empty stomach seems like quite a long time. I know if I was really pushing it during that time, I would get pretty nausious and probably be dry heaving at the gym. And then there are the actual chemical/ medical reasons that Neil stated. This is jut my .02 from past experience. TJH

catskillclimber
03-11-2005, 03:29 PM
You have plenty of advice here from smarter people than me but here is the corny little workout I do to stay in shape for general life and hiking. Try to fit it all in to a half-hour, but preferably 20 minutes.
First do five minutes of simple yoga stretches for your lower back then take a deck of cards and shuffle them.

Moday & Thursday-
Black cards equal the face value with Jacks=11, Queens=12, Kings=13
All black cards are push-ups, and all read are crunches Aces=15 pull-ups.

Tuesday & Friday-Fill your backpack with your hiking supplies & water and put it on.
Cards equal the same as above only: Black cards=squats, Red cards=calf raises, and Aces=10 pull-ups again (with the weighted pack)

Wednesday-Stretch lower back and legs with yoga to improve flexability and balance.

Saturday or Sunday-take a very long walk at a good pace for at least an hour for extended cardio.

I know it sounds strange but it works for me. I never get very out of breath or suffer from soar legs when hiking anymore. Then again, everybody's body responds to different routines. Enjoy your weekend hike everyone!
Later,
cc

Neil
03-11-2005, 03:38 PM
damn you guys are making this complicated....gluconeogenisis can occur by the deamination of amino acids from the break down of larger protiens. I t can also occur due to the break down of lipids into AcetylCo A....ok ok I found a picture. http://home.wxs.nl/~pvsanten/mmp/mmp.html

You know what is funny...during Biochem class I thought about hiking...now when I hike I think about Biochem. :p

McRat: one word of advice regarding that link. Do NOT go in there.

Puck, Are you SURE fats can go to sugar? I always thought it was just amino acids.

TJH, You're right, fasting state aerobics in the fat burning zone (speed walking) followed by a meal will do more to give you a 6-pack than a bunch of sit-ups.
(Here's an off-topic aside: if you love sit-ups think of what happens to a piece of metal if you bend it back and forth enough times. Now imagine your intervertebral disc as that piece of metal.)

I used to get up, have a coffee then run 6 miles and to be honest, I loved it. Now, for a variety of reasons I do almost all my exercise at 1:00pm.

sapblatt
03-11-2005, 03:43 PM
Breakhart, as you mentioned is another great place. There certanly some steep spots in there...I almost killed myself on my bike in there once when I was going over 30 mph on a steep downhill and somehow did not see the speed bump until it was about 20 feet in front of me...somehow I stayed balanced!
The Lynn Woods is also a great place with trails and nice views to the city and ocean...it is the second biggest urban park in the US (after Central Park.)

I am planning on hitting the Fells on Sunday.

Puck
03-11-2005, 03:59 PM
Puck, Are you SURE fats can go to sugar? I always thought it was just amino acids.


Neil my post was intended to be more tongue in cheek and not argument. But yes lipids will get broken down into AcetylCoA wich is also a product of glucolysis. (glucose to pyruvate to acetylcoA) The lipid metabolism enters into the Krebs cycle as AcetylcoA. However, whenever there is an abundance it can get converted to glucose. (not a direct pathway but it just moves back up the chain.)

Also protiens get metabolized not directly into glucose but into one of the intermidiates. which in turn can get converted into glucose...I know this is hair splitting and won't make one a better hiker. In the end its all Adenosene triphosphate.

sierra
03-12-2005, 12:45 PM
Alot of great technical advide hear, I dont need to add to, but Id like to touch on something I think is critical, your mental toughness during a hike/climb. The reason beginners have a hard time starting out in hiking is their not used to the physical strain mountain climbing takes. Once you adjust to it, you realize its normal to be winded, a little fatigued, and general suffering involved on a tough hike, espechally at altitude.
That being said, I think alot of hikers hike under their potential, due to the inability to get far enough passed the above symptoms of mountain climbing. I have always focused on my limits and pushing them very hard, this is critical to both building endurance and increasing both your times and distances. Now I realize some people are content to stroll through their hikes (thats cool for them) I like to crank through most of mine. Get mean, pain is your friend, I talk to myself on tough climbs, I have a repetora of running words/phrases that I continually recite as I climb, My favorite being, that Im a White mountain climbing machine, designed for one purpose, climbing peaks. I tear into hikes espechally when tired, like it was life or death,someday it might be.
Granted this is not for everyone, dont think Im weird, but I think by pushing oneself in this manner you develope endurance, confidence and a understanding of just what your body is capable of. While this approach to training and hiking is certainally not for everyone, I once got lost in the Sierra's and hiked for 20 hours before coming out to a road, while tired I was phisically fine.
Push yourself, dont underestimate your abilitys, but at the same time dont be afraid to stop and smell the wild flowers once in a while as well. :D

Artex
03-12-2005, 12:55 PM
Very well said, Sierra! That's along the lines with how I feel about running. It's 90% mental, IMO. The same can be said for steeper hikes. Without goals and a burning desire, the wheels will never get in motion. The proper mindset is everything. Once that's in place, the path is clear.

Nonlegit
03-12-2005, 02:17 PM
This is one of my favorite topics...get ready to read

Well, I did the irresponsible thing and i am writing a response without reading the whole thread. Dont kill me if i say the same stuff people said earlier :o .

Cardio is obviously the most important. I have experimented quite a bit to see what helps the most with hiking. When i was a varsity distance runner and really competitive, i would still perform at (relatively) the same level as a friend who walked in the woods all the time. I was in amazing shape (about 5'10", 145, no fat, threw down 17 min 5ks on hilly courses, and could crank out sub 445 minute mile reps, etc). This other guy walked about 4 miles a day with a heavy pack on, and he performed almost at the same level as me. Cutting to the chase, if i had access to a stair stepper i would work it with a pack on (ive done worse in a gym, ie pull ups on a bar with ice axes...). Also, dont throw away lifting wieghts. I have been working out like a maniac for a good 8 months now (just for kicks, i am a fitness fiend so i wanted to try something new). I was doing heavy reps for weight gain, and pyramid lifting for overall strength. Now, i am 5'11", 180, very little fat (i still run about 7 miles every day at about 630 mile pace). I have performed better overall hiking i think than my track days. However, i know that it takes a lot of time to work out and keep peak fitness in any form. So, to hit your goal of hiking hard and long, than i suggest stairstepping (indoors) with a pack, also climbing stairs with a pack is good (because you can also practice coming down). THe best would be hike more, but keep your cardio going, and dont neglect total body strength, because it helps you in whatever form of fitness you are trying to achieve. Try to at least do push ups, sit ups, and supermans if nothing else on top of some form of cardio. That should suffice.

Edit: just read sierra's post, and i was intrigued. When I ran on the team (i dont anymore, i do my own thing) my coach would say "pain is temporary, pride is forever". This was to keep us mentally motivated during a run. You can transfer this over to hiking, a little less corny of course. Think of the views from the top, not that you are stair stepping below treeline.

this is a good site, that is pretty intense but has good advice for lifting. its honest too. Good workout site (http://www.intense-workout.com/)

focusonbalance
03-12-2005, 02:39 PM
THe best would be hike more, but keep your cardio going, and dont neglect total body strength, because it helps you in whatever form of fitness you are trying to achieve.

Amen Nonlegit,

and Sierra!