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gram
02-23-2019, 12:56 PM
https://www.outdoors.org/articles/blogs/trails-blog/4000-footer-peak-drops-off-list-of-48

B the Hiker
02-23-2019, 01:47 PM
A few years back, another VFTT member and I led the entire Long Trail as a series of section hikes with the AMC. I naively thought we would have a crowd who were interested in doing the entire trail, and it's not easy section hiking, due to the car-spotting, and the AMC makes it easier because you have a number of people.

Nope!

When we did a 4,000-footer, we had a big crowd. For the remaining sections, a couple of people, or just the two of us. People like their lists.

The Baldface loop, Sandwich Dome, Mt. Crawford. Great mountains, wonderful hikes, lovely views. Each under-hiked, which each weekend people head out to Owlshead because it's on the 4,000-footer list and the others are not.

Brian

Ken MacGray
02-23-2019, 04:19 PM
The headline on that article is not quite accurate. The Committee hasn't made any decisions on removing anything.

peakbagger
02-23-2019, 06:01 PM
When the new 7.5 quads got released in the late 1980s the 100 highest list had 4 summits affected so two went off and two went on. I was on a group hike with Gene Daniell doing White Cap and Boundary Peak. We got up to the col between White Cap and Kennebago Divide, he suggested that we had time to visit the "new hundred highest". He mentioned that given technology would be ever improving and could potentially impact more summits his opinion and he claimed of the committee was that would be last change and they would adopt the policy of the ADK 46's and use a historical list.

Of course more 4000 footers could drop off the list in the next few decades. The 4000 footers are based on elevation above Mean Sea Level (MSL). Actual MSL is rising. I have seen estimates that actual MSL will rise about 10 feet in 2 decades. At some point the North American Vertical Datum of 1988 (NAV D88) could be replaced to reflect the rise of actual MSL and that raising of MSL will mean more summits may drop below the magic elevation. If Tecumseh fell off and Sandwich grew a few feet I would not mind.

Ken MacGray
02-23-2019, 06:15 PM
It is my understanding at this point that Sandwich won't become a 4K.

skiguy
02-24-2019, 01:13 PM
Personally I really couldn't care what happens to Tecumseh. I like Tecumseh because it is a nice hike whether or not if it is on a list or not. I've done most of the lists and have picked up a lot of nice non-listed peaks along the way. List are nice because they do provide motivation and direction but the badge collecting part of it is over rated IMO. For instance Guyout and Mt. Height are great mountains with very interesting views. If one were to just stick to lists you might never enjoy awesome places like that. To each his own and hike your hike.

bikehikeskifish
02-24-2019, 01:20 PM
For instance Guyout and Mt. Height are great mountains with very interesting views. If one were to just stick to lists you might never enjoy awesome places like that.

These are both on the Trailwrights list, FWIW.

Tim

skiguy
02-24-2019, 01:36 PM
These are both on the Trailwrights list, FWIW.

Tim
I told you I wasn't into lists...LOL;) Thanks for the clarification.

maineguy
02-25-2019, 12:44 PM
I had climbed all but 8 of the 4Ks in NH by 1969, but then went away to school and military and didn't return to hike the Whites until 1981. My wife bought me a new guidebook and I set about to transferring the dates of the peaks climbed from my old guidebook (1966). She said "wouldn't it be funny if they added some mountains". Then I realized that they had indeed added 2 peaks...Bondcliff and Galehead. Luckily, I had climbed them both, one by accident. So, when I was working on the NE4K list many years later, as I was on my way to Abraham in Maine, I took the short spur path to Spaulding because I figured that being that it was only a few feet below 4000, it might someday become a 4K peak. I'm sure glad I did.

Mike P.
02-25-2019, 01:58 PM
Will wait and see what else they find but until the committee makes a decision..... Tecumseh coming off the list might make it a better time as parking would be better for the smaller lot off of Tripoli Road which has the better approach, IMO If they are looking at changes, I'd be looking at the Saddle between the Hancocks and also between Lincoln and Lafayette which has been brought up in the past as possible changes.

peakbagger
02-27-2019, 09:51 AM
This article seems to indicate that high spec GPS is not the source of the proposed elevation change. I am unable to listen to the linked radio version but the article states the reference is from LIDAR data from aerial overflights.

https://www.nhpr.org/post/new-measurement-data-means-new-hampshires-famed-4000-footer-list-may-be-changing#stream/0

I don't claim to be a LIDAR expert but the commercial use of LIDAR I have seen is high accuracy topographical features rather than actual altitude verification. Any LIDAR signal is just time of flight from the transmitter to the receiver which is in a moving plane. There would still need to be high spec GPS reference to the plane's elevation and I am not sure that that is at a high resolution. I would tend to trust a high spec GPS sitting on top of the mountain over the potential errors introduced from a Lidar overflight but perhaps I am wrong. I have seen other references that Larry actually walked all the trails with high spec GPS unit so I question why the refence to LIDAR?

No doubt the USGS elevation for Tecumseh and other 4000 footers could be wrong. Even though the USGS map shows a triangle at the summit of Tecumseh implying a USGS benchmark, when I search the database there is not a station listed and I believe the elevation listed on the map is calculated from other vertical control points in the area or possibly stereophotogrammetry techniques. Mt Osceola does have two benchmarks but the datasheet shows the elevation listed as scaled off of topographic maps so even its elevation would also be in question.

FYI USGS Maps have minimum accuracy standards "2. Vertical accuracy, as applied to contour maps on all publication scales, shall be such that not more than 10 percent of the elevations tested shall be in error by more than one-half the contour interval. In checking elevations taken from the map, the apparent vertical error may be decreased by assuming a horizontal displacement within the permissible horizontal error for a map of that scale.


For the most current USGS quad for Tecumseh (Waterville Valley 1995) the contour interval is 40 feet. Using the map accuracy standard from above that means the stated elevated on Tecumseh of 4003 feet could actually be plus or minus 20 feet and still meet the standard although the horizontal displacement adjustment would also factor in.

Stan
02-27-2019, 10:02 AM
Does this all mean we have to turn in our badges?

JoshandBaron
02-27-2019, 10:27 AM
Does this all mean we have to turn in our badges?

We don't need no stinking badges.

skiguy
02-27-2019, 12:15 PM
We don't need no stinking badges.Or decoder rings.

B the Hiker
04-08-2019, 02:19 PM
A short and decent article on changes to the New Hampshire and Adirondack lists over the years.

http://goeast.ems.com/tradition-truth-white-mountains-elevation/?fbclid=IwAR2vvDUdn6eJFzrSDHqcZTDYhshVqGXRPrhslO5V MVP0z5FqRvreOu8zTi8

talktapes
04-09-2019, 09:06 AM
For instance Guyout and Mt. Height are great mountains with very interesting views. If one were to just stick to lists you might never enjoy awesome places like that.

It's mind boggling that people go out of their way to tick Carter Dome off the list and won't go 10 easy minutes out of the way to hit Height. I remember camping at Guyot a few years ago and another camper there paid for a thru hiker to stay overnight as a courtesy. Apparently the thru hiker ran out of water, had to go out of his way to hit the spring at the campsite and didn't budget enough for the AMC fee.

I asked him if he was planning on hitting West Bond and the answer was no, it would mess up his itinerary. It's like dude I know you have a schedule but it's already messed up, you'd be adding maybe half an hour to visit one of the best summits in New Hampshire and it's right there, just take the bonus and do a little night hiking if you have to.

Incidentally when did Mohamed's 48 4k Earthlink site go down?

dug
04-09-2019, 09:56 AM
Thru-hikers are a category all their own. Much of their hike is dictated by budget and timing, and a side-route of a couple of miles in the midst of a 20+ mile day could mean a missed connection, which could mean a missed trip to the bank or a real meal, a late start the next day, and it cascades.

talktapes
04-09-2019, 10:57 AM
I understand, what I'm getting at is that this guy already had planned poorly to the point where he had to go significantly out of his way to grab water (instead of filling up at Galehead or managing his supply more efficiently) and ended up in an area that required cash to camp as night was approaching. An extra mile with negligible elevation gain when you're already behind to see West Bond seems like a gimme. Thru hikers have more of an excuse than someone working on the 48 but it just seemed crazy to me being that close to such a remote, low-effort summit (if you're up there already) and having zero interest in it. To be fair I don't find the AT appealing at all so to each their own, everyone hikes for different reasons.

TCD
04-09-2019, 12:02 PM
A short and decent article on changes to the New Hampshire and Adirondack lists over the years.

http://goeast.ems.com/tradition-truth-white-mountains-elevation/?fbclid=IwAR2vvDUdn6eJFzrSDHqcZTDYhshVqGXRPrhslO5V MVP0z5FqRvreOu8zTi8

Good article; thanks!

I'm probably not going to end up doing the 48, but I've been around the Adirondack 46 a couple times. I like the way we are handling the elevation question here in the Adirondacks. Basically, who cares about high tech new data, prominence, etc.? The "list" is a tradition, not a topographic survey. And we're simply sticking with the tradition.

bikehikeskifish
04-13-2019, 07:18 AM
Incidentally when did Mohamed's 48 4k Earthlink site go down?

I found a mirror of it on GitHub: https://bmhatfield.github.io/white-mountains/

Tim

Raven
04-15-2019, 05:51 AM
I understand, what I'm getting at is that this guy already had planned poorly to the point where he had to go significantly out of his way to grab water (instead of filling up at Galehead or managing his supply more efficiently) and ended up in an area that required cash to camp as night was approaching. An extra mile with negligible elevation gain when you're already behind to see West Bond seems like a gimme. Thru hikers have more of an excuse than someone working on the 48 but it just seemed crazy to me being that close to such a remote, low-effort summit (if you're up there already) and having zero interest in it. To be fair I don't find the AT appealing at all so to each their own, everyone hikes for different reasons.

He may not have finished.

There are far more people who start a thru hike than actually finish. Those spending too much time investigating side trips don't finish. There are many, many worthy side trips along the 2,000+ mile trail. One needs to pick and choose carefully. You also summit some 300+ mountains on the AT. The idea of taking side trips from a mountain trail to see another mountain is not a common choice.

People sometimes point out that thru hikers will do 100+ miles a week but want a hitch for a 5 mile road walk to town. It may seem counterintuitive but it's the same reason no one is running 7 miles to the start of today's Boston Marathon.

I took some side trips on the AT but they were chosen carefully and in advance for the most part. Parts of Gulf Hagas, some side trips in the Whites I had not visited, etc. At some point, thru hikers become more likely to go out of their way for a buffet than a view. You're in it at that point.

I think the Whites will see two lists, the formal NH48 which I predict remains where it now stands. I also expect a new pursuit of the Actual NH 4,000 footers based on precise elevation data. I expect this remains an informal list.

Some of NH's best kept secrets are not in that list. Mountains such as...

peakbagger
04-15-2019, 07:05 AM
Out of general principle I have avoided climbing Cupsuptic Snow as my 100 highest award predates a past revision of the list where it and Kennebago Divide replaced Middle Abraham with its far more impressive summit with view compared to Cupsuptic Snow. I think the other one displaced was one of the Horns on Bigelow.

Raven's observation on AT thru hikers is spot on. Most thru hikers seem to switch their thinking somewhere after trail days in Damascus VA. VA is nice place to spend a couple of weeks in the spring but 554 miles and 7 to 8 weeks (1/4 of the trail) is pushing it especially as much of it is green tunnel with a couple of viewpoints. The term the "Virginia Blues" used to be used to describe the mental transition from a short term goal to a much longer long term goal of making it to Maine. I think the "tourists" have headed home and the serious folks realize its a "job" they need to do if they want to get to Maine and that means cranking out daily miles which means fewer side trails and blue blazes.

bikehikeskifish
04-15-2019, 08:11 AM
It sounds to me like it's not really all that different than hiking the NH 48 and skipping things like Hight, Clay and Guyot.

Tim

peakbagger
04-15-2019, 08:26 AM
A pretty standard regret I have heard from many "listers" is they wish they had waited until better weather when they did the first round. Many end up revisiting summits for a second time just so they can see what they missed. I didn't submit my paperwork until I been to all the summits on days that I had a reasonable view (from those summits with views).

Must admit, I have walked past the actual summit of Zealand more than few times as I have always felt that the Zealand summit was a contrivance to keep people from roaming around woods and trashing the area. When I first visited it, there was no real path or sign.

JoshandBaron
04-15-2019, 10:10 AM
Must admit, I have walked past the actual summit of Zealand more than few times as I have always felt that the Zealand summit was a contrivance to keep people from roaming around woods and trashing the area. When I first visited it, there was no real path or sign.

That summit cairn moves around quite a bit to make room for camping. It's never in the same place.

Stan
04-15-2019, 10:41 AM
Zealand - When we bagged Zealand on the way to the Bonds, I don't remember a cairn at the "summit". There was a "Zealand" sign on a tree and directly beneath it was a huge pile of moose poop. Moose are known to have poor vision.

West Bond - I wouldn't criticize someone else's decision to skip it. In the interest of safety it can be a very wise move. Camping nearby at Guyot I was fortunate to have enjoyed it at sunset but, under certain circumstances, I would have skipped it as I have a few landmarks with the notion that this is a terrific place and excuse to come back.

Lists - Peakbagging and redlining are perhaps mental disorders which I happily admit to and when it comes to new lists and old lists, why choose??? Do both. Admitting to such a state of health is a perfect excuse for a tequila tailgate for there are plenty of great stories without inchworming through the minutiae.

TJsName
04-15-2019, 11:08 AM
Zealand - When we bagged Zealand on the way to the Bonds, I don't remember a cairn at the "summit". There was a "Zealand" sign on a tree and directly beneath it was a huge pile of moose poop. Moose are known to have poor vision.

West Bond - I wouldn't criticize someone else's decision to skip it. In the interest of safety it can be a very wise move. Camping nearby at Guyot I was fortunate to have enjoyed it at sunset but, under certain circumstances, I would have skipped it as I have a few landmarks with the notion that this is a terrific place and excuse to come back.

Lists - Peakbagging and redlining are perhaps mental disorders which I happily admit to and when it comes to new lists and old lists, why choose??? Do both. Admitting to such a state of health is a perfect excuse for a tequila tailgate for there are plenty of great stories without inchworming through the minutiae.

Zealand is interesting - I enjoy the whole stretch from Zeacliff to Guyot, but I don't really consider it a 'peak'. I admit I've skipped Zealand Pond (but will have to go check it out some day for the Redlining credit). It's not that I've not wanted to go, it's the same dilemma mentioned previously. Basically, you can do anything but you can't do everything on a given trip. I agree with the sentiment that most places are worth going back to several times in different conditions via different routes. You gain an appreciation for what changes - and what doesn't.

bikehikeskifish
04-15-2019, 11:40 AM
Zealand is interesting - ... I don't really consider it a 'peak'.

USGS Topo Maps list it officially as "Zealand Ridge", so maybe you're not alone ;)

Tim

peakbagger
04-15-2019, 12:04 PM
One Zealand memory. I was working with someone on the winter 48 and the forecast was for clouds. We had reservations at Zealand Hut the night before so we headed in. The hike up From the hut to Zealand was typical winter conditions but in the clouds. As we approached the high spot at Zealand we had a spot of blue sky over us. Once we got to the high spot on the trail we had solid undercast at just under 4K feet. We dropped down in the saddle and were back the clouds again and then came out at Guyot, Bond and West Bond. I think it was mountain photography session on Mt Washington that weekend and someone from VFTT possible Dave Metsky was up at the seminar so I got some nice verification of the undercast.

sierra
04-15-2019, 12:42 PM
I have never done the AT but as stated above, staying focused and avoiding side trips must be key. I have driven across country a few times. I learned early on, that to many side trips can turn it into quite a lengthy drive time wise. You have to decide before you start, do I want to take my time and see stuff, or get to CA in less then 4 days?

Raven
04-17-2019, 03:06 PM
It sounds to me like it's not really all that different than hiking the NH 48 and skipping things like Hight, Clay and Guyot.

Tim

Tim,

I think that's an excellent analogy if you also make the NH48 pursuit a "direttissima" or another continuous end to end hike or something like the SSW48 where there becomes a noticeable and cumulative cost for too many side miles.