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--M.
05-07-2005, 03:31 PM
As a new, and acknowledged junior, member, I ask this question rather than positing an advocated position:

Why is political content, inasmuch as it relates to hiking, prohibited?

I understand the need for civility of discourse;
I agree that flaming is deleterious to the success of the site;
I have seen the effects of cross-site antipathy caused by apparent bias;
and can therefore see the potential negative in discussing, say, why hikers might have "constructive criticism" of a given organization.

BUT, at what point does the elephant in the living room become fair game (so to speak) for vibrant discussion among rational and mature participants?

I have hiked in New England and New York for thirty some years, and have had various impressions of its institutions (and couldn't be prouder as a NE yankee [small 'y']). But I am still a relative naif among some of them and would like to hear a vigorous debate among adherents and critics. I would very much like to support some of our venerable institutions, but have reservations, including (especially) lack of knowledge and understanding. Why not allow a constructive discussion? Surely we can handle some socratic discourse!

If I could, I would stir the pot, not boil it over.

Respectful to a site not mine,

--Mike

RGF1
05-07-2005, 04:12 PM
Mike I sent you a PM about this.

Peakbagr
05-07-2005, 04:20 PM
We've now hit 2000 members. Darren has repeated stated this is a hiking board.
Its a fine line that gets crossed, and before you know it, its a flame war, and the moderators are caught between those emailing us to terminate the thread and the libertarians excoriating us for censorship. If you think its going to degenerate, please save us all and post it somewhere else.

dms
05-07-2005, 04:31 PM
You and Darren do a wonderful job under sometimes difficult circumstances. I thank you for doing your best to keep it a hiking board! :)

--M.
05-07-2005, 04:38 PM
I've reconsidered: it's impossible and not quite appropriate in this space. You're right: too fine a line. Vigorous discussion is different from degenerative argument.

Later....

RGF1
05-07-2005, 05:15 PM
We've now hit 2000 members. Darren has repeated stated this is a hiking board.
Its a fine line that gets crossed, and before you know it, its a flame war, and the moderators are caught between those emailing us to terminate the thread and the libertarians excoriating us for censorship. If you think its going to degenerate, please save us all and post it somewhere else.


It is Darren’s site and he can set the rules. One thing though. I would be able and happy to do is moderate a section with political discussion so long as I could deal with flaming and personal attacks. AND it was regulated to hiking and climgbing or conservation . I have the time in the after noon. And I am sure as long we keep It related to hiking and climbing it might work as regardless of your politics it does impact what we all love to do. . Yes it can degenerate into name calling and flaming with pout rules and moderation. I would be willing to do this on my own time. Maybe people need a moderated outlet for this. I know I would love to just ask about stuff but for fear of banning of censoring I do not. . Yet it affects us all as a community and a civil and informed debate could be help full. I can keep my own politics in check and let each view express them selves in a civil manner just keep the name calling and flaming out. . If Darren is willing I can do this. And If I do go off on a adventure I would say the forum is closed until I get back. I usually am free after 1 or 2 PM sometimes later due to the nature of my work so I would be willing to moderate a forum and close it if I cannot. Maybe it would be a good way for people to express themselves with out fear of flaming or name-calling

I briefly saw the AMC site degenerate into a name calling flame throwing night mare that left many with very hurt feelings and ill will towards the AMC and other poster who might have otherwise been friends that was due to a lack of moderation and the connections in the AMC of some of the flamers were allowed top harass people because the knew the “moderator” if he can be called that. And got A free pass or because of their so-called status .in the “hiking community”. I think that should not happen if your are a jerk your are a jerk and if you flame, call names or personally attack you get banned or worse. .
Regardless of who you know. I have a feeling none of them post here.
But maybe letting people politely with moderation have some debate over policy might be a good thing. This is much better run than the AMC excuse for a BBS I think it could work. I know none of the BS that the AMC moderator tolerated would happen here part of why I post here.

Sherpa John
05-07-2005, 05:26 PM
This possibility has been brought up... discussed... discussed.... discussed... brought up again... and discussed some more.

Though I personally like the idea of a moderated "CHAT" area on the site.... The ADMINISTRATOR..AKA... GUY WHO RUNS THE SITE... has decided AGAINST the idea NUMEROUS times.

Now I'm not much of a horse lover myself, but I do know when beatng a dead horse can no longer be done. Come on people. It is blatantly obvious that not everyone on this site is of the same modicum of maturity. Everyone here is different. We have introverts and extroverts. We have divorce's and bachelors/ettes. We have outspoken blunt persons, and quite mind my own business person. We have people who post 30 posts a day, and people who are "lurkers" and never post at all.

Bottom line is, NOT everyone will EVER be satisfied with the way THIS site or the way OTHER sites so happen to be run. Thats the way of life. But my question is, when the hell are we going to stop gripping about what Darren does or does not do in public?! If you don't like how it is HERE at VFTT.... then why not just start your own damn website Called "Views From The Bottom" where all that is done is people get chit chatty about the same thing over and over and over again... and none of it related to hiking.

Want to talk politics? Go on yahoo and start a yahoo group called WMPolitics. Or how about the group.. AMCDie!

I may not like how some of the things are done here from time to time, but who am I to just hop on here and start a post about how bad something is that the guy who runs the site did or how I don't like the "format." IF I disliked it enough, I could just FIND A NEW BOARD.. or start a new one. In this tech savy life we live in, its not THAT hard.

So bottom line: I don;t mean to step on toes here but... come on guys... enough is enough. This site is about HIKING and its directly related topics and informative discussions. (I think) :confused: If your not down with that... then get down and find the Views From The Bottom!

Now lets have some more threads started about if a certain road is open or not... :rolleyes:

McRat
05-07-2005, 07:24 PM
Politics -
Poli from the greek meaning Many... and tics: small blood sucking insects.

Thanks for keeping politics out.

Actual rational political discussion went from endangered to extinct some time ago. What is left has basically devolved into a set of hackneyed arguments as the two sides preach loadly to their respective choirs, ignoring detractors, with no one changing their opinion about anything.

I don't care who anyone votes for, what party they belong to, or how they feel about any ongoing military conflict. I can get that almost everywhere else, and it seldom makes me smile. When I want to talk trail or gear, I'm glad VFTT has so many people from different walks of life, drawn together for a common pastime, who will share their knowledge and experience.

And if this is out of line, I don't care if it's deleted.

A little moderation is a good thing.

---------------------------------------------------
Remember that politics divide while problems multiply.

Puma concolor
05-07-2005, 07:27 PM
There are, of course, subtle ways of expressing a basic viewpoint without beating people over the head with it.

Darwin
05-07-2005, 08:16 PM
I've got three words, mountains and molehills ;) .

darren
05-07-2005, 10:56 PM
It is Darren’s site and he can set the rules. One thing though. I would be able and happy to do is moderate a section with political discussion


My answer is simply, no. There are many people here from many different backgrounds that have many different viewpoints and what brings them all together is hiking. This site is about hiking and will remain as such.

There is one thing to have a political discussion while sitting around the campfire and another to have the same conversation on the internet. On the internet it just does nto work. I have learned this by not only running this site for over 10 years (yes, longer than the AMC has been on the internet) and by using the internet for 15 years. This site was partially born out of my frustration of using the usenet rec.backcountry forum 15 years ago. Political discussions do not work on the internet and they will not happen on my site.

- darren

RGF1
05-08-2005, 08:05 AM
Darren Now that i think about it in a sligthly differnt light you are right . As is some one else Any rational disscusin will quicly degenrate into nothing but name calling and bmbastss from people. It is harder to do that sitting around a campfire or at a site in person. The Internet makes it far to easy to really abuse some one .