Gripe about North Face jacket

I understand that The North Face was purchased by Vanity Fair and that a certain amount of fashion/consumer influence will be evident in the company's more popular jackets. But the Mountain Light jacket I recently bought was a joke. Its core-vent zips fall directly under your pack straps. Its exterior pockets fall directly under your pack’s waist belt. Advertising for the jacket notes its zip-in capability for existing TNF down and fleece pieces—not true. On all three of my existing TNF zip-in components, including one purchased just last year, the right side zipped in, the left didn’t. What a rip!

I bought this jacket online from EMS. It was on sale for $239 (instead of $299) with free shipping, etc. I knew TNF stuff had “gone consumer” to some extent, but I was buying partly based on my experience with the TNF Mountain Light jacket that I’ve used for the last six years and that has performed well for me. It didn’t look as fitted, it had regular GoreTex instead of XCR, and its hood didn’t zip off, but at least its pockets were usable and the pit-zips worked.

I don’t especially care that the company decided to change the jacket to appeal to a different market. That’s their prerogative. But to represent the current Mountain Light as a real mountaineering jacket is misleading. It’s a member of TNF’s “Summit Series” which in their words includes “our most technically advanced products. Designed for expedition use….” That is flat out false, at least in my experience with the jacket, which is now wending its way back to the EMS Returns Department.

Yea it's sad but true. North Face use to be a great company. A buddy of mine just bought a Down Parka from North Face and the sizing was all screwed up. He's big and mail orderd a XXL. When it came through the thing fit like a Large. Needless to say that jacket went back real fast. Unfortunately there has been a rash of good companies selling out in the last ten years. Consumer beware.

I heard somewhere a couple of years ago (NEICE maybe??) that ice climbers were complaining that north face shells were bigger in the belly area - so much so that it was a problem when technical climbing - it was bulking up and getting in the way of the gear- not sure if that was exagerated or what -
but I have noticed their gear going downhill over the last few years - not sure if this is b/c of mass manufacturing or what. I guess if they are marketing to the "city crowd" (walk down the street and you would think TNF is donna karen or polo) this would happen.

I have some of their stuff (gloves sleeping bag, etc..) from a few years back and have always been pretty happy with it.

if you buy TNF on ebay - watch out for fakes!!

Without trying to sound elitist, when I got into hiking in the 70's, the best place to get "serious" gear was LL Bean. Then Bean decided there was a much bigger market than hikers, and they "softened" their gear and went after that "casual" market. Mont Blanc is another example. Recently, TNF has obviously changed it's market focus as well.

Most gear is marketed at the mass market because that is where the money is. There is a small market for high quality technical outerwear, and then there is the rest of the world. The top manufacturers tend to have a lifecycle

- break off from establish gear maker that is slipping
- produce great gear at a very expensive price point
- gain a rep as the new gear kings
- produce some good but lower priced models for us enthusiests
- lose money as competitors, business cycles, and details get in the way
- sell out or be bought by a mainstream competitor
- some employees break off to form a new company

TNF, Sierra Designs, Marmot, heck, even Mountain Hardware have gone or are going down this path. They all still make some excellent pieces of gear, but it's often harder to find them amid the less bombproof stuff.

-dave-

David Metsky said:

TNF, Sierra Designs, Marmot, heck, even Mountain Hardware have gone or are going down this path. They all still make some excellent pieces of gear, but it's often harder to find them amid the less bombproof stuff.

-dave-

Click to expand...

Dana Designs ..Black Diamond/Patagonia to name a couple more.

David Metsky said:

TNF, Sierra Designs, Marmot, heck, even Mountain Hardware have gone or are going down this path.

Click to expand...

skiguy said:

Dana Designs ..Black Diamond/Patagonia to name a couple more.

Click to expand...

Who's left...


-Shayne

who's left?

spaddock said:

Who's left...


-Shayne

Click to expand...

Shayne,

I'm hoping Arc'Teryx is one of the good ones left. In place of the Mountain Light, I'm purchasing a Theta AR jacket, pricey but I don't want to mess around anymore. As some of the earlier posts point out, I think most of the big names, including TNF, make some good products, usually at the high end. It's just maddening when they pass inferior products off as "the real thing."

zeke

They should all have /JCrew/Gap after their logos......

When EMS made a decision last year to go back to designing and selling clothing geared toward REAL outdoor entusiasts, I was happy....sigh, it seems very little has changed...

At least Limmers can't be found at Wal-Mart.....yet!

I respectfully dissagree about Patagonia being included in that list. I own alot of Patagonia clothes, its funtional and bomber as hell. Not to mention a percentage of Patagonia profits goes back to enviormental causes. I have everything from underwear to jackets and they all are in the elite of both quality and longevity. The retro line of fleece is a great example, very warm and packable, look at the R4 jacket if you can absolutely rocks. I peticuliary like there clothes for layering, I rarely carry a parka, I find there clothes make for great layering combos and I stay very warm.
P.S> IM telling Evon what you said.

I have been told that the mountain hardware designers/funders are the group that founded TNF. Mountain hardware still makes a lot of good gear. Their shells are pretty nice, Arcteryx's are even nicer.

I don't mind when an outdoor company branches into mainstream sportswear/fashion as long as they preserve their outdoor line and it's quality. As a kid I would have loved a "My First Alpine Tent" as a play tent and even more so if it was made by TNF.

Really though, corporate consolidation aside it must be hard to resist tweaking something like the Mountain Light for the market that's actually buying most of the things. I remember seeing the Mountain Light spread throughout the city and it's ghetto's in the late 80's and then the upper west side in the 90's. Didn't Burberry make the anoraks used by Mallory?

As many of you know, I am a HUGE fan of Arc'Teryx. Their stuff, admittedly, is pricey. But I've found it has lasting power. I have two of their backpacks, a Gore-Tex jacket and bibs, and love all of their stuff _ from the design to the durability.

Zeke, don't know if this also has changed since TNF has different owners, but they used to have a great return policy. Might wanna see if you can exchange it.

Yes, each of these companies has expanded their product lines to include gear that has mass market appeal but each of these comapnies still make some great gear. The Mountain Light isn't a particularly great jacket but it is comparable to other jackets from other big name manufactures in that price range. (Mountain Light; TNF is trying to tell us this isn't a high quality jacket! )

If a company like TNF wants to grow they have to do it with lower-end products. There just isn't that big a market out there for super-high end gear. By introducing more mass market low-end gear,these companies have gambled a bit with their loyal base consumers, but to reject these companies outright because they have introduced lesser priced gear is elitist IMO.

Top quality gear can be had for reasonable prices you just have to be willing to settle for last years models and do your shopping in April and May.

David Metsky said:

TNF, Sierra Designs, Marmot, heck, even Mountain Hardware have gone or are going down this path.
-dave-

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...add Eddie Bauer and Abercrombie & Fitch to that list...

Look what happened to those two!

Oh, BTW, if you ever buy any TNF gear at their outlet stores, they don't offer the same warranty as gear purchased at their full-price stores. This came up when I was looking at their -40/synthetic bag.

While all of the above is true, a lot of good gear can still be found at places line TNF and Bean's, you just have to look in person as I have found little in their catalogs or online. I have also been disappointed with Patagonia in recent years, they seem to have a lot more 'bling' to them as well.

As with anything, it's "buyer beware", and you really have to look something over for its finer points before you buy it.

i've spoken to quite a few that even feel arcteryx is going down hill. some have pointed to the fact that they've recently started making much more of their stuff in china as evidence. i'm not sure about that, but their stuff is a little too expensive for my blood.

on another note, i understand why people have problems with patagonia. they have some corny stuff, but they also have some of the best stuff out there. in my mind, they make the best fleece, underwear, and baselayers in the game, hands down--plus they make some really nice shells too. they do it right. they sell a lot, but they still make hardcore stuff too, and make it well.

i have a lot of patagucci stuff. i even have some shorts from when they were chouinard i got when i lived up the road from them in santa barbara. but the truth is, and this really is the truth--while their stuff is still very high-quality, it's made for, let's say, the more girthful among us. even their "small" is huge. i'm just sayin'!! i call 'em fatagonia!!

ya don't need all that gear anyhow!!

I think there is a little confusion here between what the manufacturers offer and what you actually see in retail stores. With two exceptions, all of the names mentioned above have some extremely high quality outerwear and/or gear that would fill the technical needs of anybody participating in this forum. (Price is a different matter.) To cite just one example, TNF has an absolutely bewildering variety of outerwear in its catalog. I've never been in a store that carries even a majority of the line.

However, the retail store buyers make their selections months in advance of the selling season, using limited budgets and trying to maximize their profits by picking the winners. It's not unlike handicapping horse races, at times.

The two exceptions? Eddie Bauer and Abercrombie & Fitch. It is amazing and appalling what was done to these honored names. There was a time when Eddie personally outfitted polar explorers and early Himalayan climbers. I count myself fortunate to have seen the headquarters store back in the early 80's, when they were still selling very high quality down clothing and the like. Never made it to New Yawk in time to see the other one.

Couple of loose thoughts...

First off, and with no offense meant to the original poster, the TNF Mountain Light has been around since at least the late 80s and it's always been a sub-par jacket aimed at a particular price point. The Mountain Light was a lousy knock off of the Marmot Lightweight Alpinist, which used a sturdier 2-layer/3-layer design.

More to the point, IMO, any lined 2-layer jacket like the Mtn Light is designed primarily for front country use. The exception would be heavy (almost insulated) mountain parkas like the old TNF Mountain Jacket and old Marmot Alpinist (both long since discontinued in favor of unlined 3 layer GoreTex). I'm not dissing the Mountain Light (although it may sound like that). I've owned and really loved several lined 2 layer jackets including the Patagonia Storm Jacket and a current EMS jacket. But IMO, you need to judge these jackets for what they really designed for. They are perfect (and in fact preferable) jackets for front country use like commuting, around town wear and lift served skiing.

Second, for those of you upset by corporate buy-outs and the like, be careful of equating small and private with good or with equating big and corporate with bad. In terms of the performance of gear, IMO the real issues are design and quality. Both big and small companies can do good product design and do bad product design. For example, I think, as a rule, EMS does a much, much better job at product design that REI does.