Mt Cabot Trail, Open or Closed?

Thinking about Mt Cabot for Sunday and would like to use the Mt Cabot Trail. I read an older article that the Mt Cabot trail should not be used until a land owner access issue was cleared up. I see in the VFTT "Trail Conditions" that others have used the trail this winter. Can anyone shed any light on this, is it OK to hike this trail.

Thanks in advance,
OMW

Officially, the USFS has the trail closed. However, some ignore that and climb it anyway. If you feel it is in your right to intervene in a landowner's right (or perceived right) to close a trail that is on his land, then you should hike it.

If you feel since by all acounts the trail is closed (it doesn't show on the new AMC maps and the trail description in "the book" says it's closed and the USFS says it's closed) then it would be much appreciated if you did not go on it. It's only making the situation worse as other White Mountain bordering landowners are keeping an eye on the situation.

My opinion, go in via York Pond. It's a much nicer route.

dug said:

It's only making the situation worse as other White Mountain bordering landowners are keeping an eye on the situation.

My opinion, go in via York Pond. It's a much nicer route.

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Thanks, Good advice!

This subject gets discussed a lot, so if you want all the background, pros and cons, just run a search on "Mt. Cabot Trail," and you'll pull up several recent threads on it.

dug said:

It's only making the situation worse as other White Mountain bordering landowners are keeping an eye on the situation.

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For an alternate view, if every landowner who previously sold rights-of-way starts closing them because this guy made it stick, then soon you will not be able to hike the A.T. for instance.

I haven't been up that way since the guy closed it because I don't want to argue with a gun-toter by myself, but if we got together a group of 20 or so I'd go. We need to demonstrate that property rights mean if you (or a predecessor) sold a right-of-way then you should expect that others will use it. If you don't like that, there are legal ways of extinguishing a ROW that don't involve firearms.

If You're Peakbagging...

FYI, if you're bagging peaks, don't repeat my mistake- the former fire tower (you can tell by the old cement things) is about 300 feet away from the real summit.

Which is why I can tell you to go in NOT by the Fish Hatchery or Bunnell Notch Trail (LOTS of water on it when I did Cabot the "first" time, it would be ice now), but the way past The Horn- trail is much better. (Can't remember the name of the trail- am writing this from the library and don't have my White Mt. Guidebook.) Plus, when I tagged the actual summit the "2nd" time, there was a sign on the summit.

I had heard that the gun-toting landowner has plans to put a trailer park there, lovely, eh?

I went in by Bunnell Notch Tr twice--one attempt in winter and one ascent the following summer. Had no problems with water or mud. Parts of the trail have recently (last summer?) been relocated to go around the wet/muddy sections.

Doug

lx93 said:

but the way past The Horn- trail is much better. (Can't remember the name of the trail

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Take the Unknown Pond Trail from Mill Brook Road off Rte 110 in Stark, then the Kilkenny Ridge Trail from the pond up over the Bulge (on the NE Hundred Highest) directly to the summit of Cabot. It's a beautiful route.

lx93 said:

FYI, if you're bagging peaks, don't repeat my mistake- the former fire tower (you can tell by the old cement things) is about 300 feet away from the real summit.

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Not to be overly fussy, lx93, but the rocky area about 300 feet from the old fire tower is not the real summit either. The real summit is about 1/2 mile further on. No views, but there was still a sign the last time I was there in January.

As for the trailer park - now that one I hadn't heard. This one has many twists ... maybe we can really get people's shorts all twisted up if we get a rumor started that Walmart is looking at the land.

lx93 said:

I had heard that the gun-toting landowner has plans to put a trailer park there, lovely, eh?

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With all due respect, it actually is still legal in most of America to own firearms. "Gun-toting" is a derogative against those who value the Second Amendment of the Constitution. It is likely that the landowner in question, or someone who knows him, sees these threads. Derogatory comments would not be helpful toward getting the trail reopened.

Many hiking trails in the WMNF pass through private property. Hikers should be thankful and respectful of these people who allow the trails on their land. Rumor has it that there are others who are considering closing their land to hiker access.

Kevin Rooney said:

maybe we can really get people's shorts all twisted up if we get a rumor started that Walmart is looking at the land.

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Actually, if it's true that the right-of-way is actually a part of the deed (which I've heard), then a change of owner, no matter who it is, could be a good thing as it would get the lawyers involved and the new owner would have it right there on the legal documents that public access is allowed and have to understand they can't just arbitrarily decide to yell at people to stay out.

forestnome said:

Many hiking trails in the WMNF pass through private property ... Rumor has it that there are others who are considering closing their land to hiker access.

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Which is why the Forest Service won't press the Cabot landowner, even if he/she is in the legal wrong. They don't want to be seen as a brute squad and entice other landowners who have the right to cut off access to do so.

Forestnome,

I wasn't attempting to insult people who have firearms, but apologize to anyone that I may have appeared to be doing so.

I agree, we hikers do need to be respectful of landowner's property; a few rotten eggs could ruin it for everyone.

Kevin Rooney said:

...started that Walmart is looking at the land.

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WALMART!!!! Say it aint so!!!!!!

lx93 said:

Forestnome,

I wasn't attempting to insult people who have firearms, but apologize to anyone that I may have appeared to be doing so.

I agree, we hikers do need to be respectful of landowner's property; a few rotten eggs could ruin it for everyone.

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Excellent! I also agree about the "few rotten eggs" ruinning something very prescious. This is a complex issue for us all. I wish I knew more about it.

My understanding is that there are different arrangements between landowner and government among the different parcells. Some view the tax benefit of the easement to be barely worth the negatives they may endure, such as lawsuits if someone gets hurt on their land. IIRC, they are covered from liability, but only to a certain amount. There have been recent lawsuits in which the booty exeeds the coverage, although these were snowmobile accidents. It has these landowners worried.

Anyone, please add or correct. This is an important issue.

Happy Trails!

Yeah, finally some good points on this issue! Speaking for myself, I have no opinion whether he has the RIGHT to close the trail. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. However, the fact of the matter is that the USFS has closed the trail. There is no sign at the trailhead. The self-proclaimed "Hiker's Bible" has advised the trail is closed (then proceeds to give a description ). The latest maps do not show a trail. Knowing all that...how would know they were even in the right place?

I can agree with Forestnome that other property owners who border the mountains or have trails that cross their property are curious how this landowner is treated. If we continue to march willy-nilly across the land, we could see this type of issue arise in other areas.

We flatlanders feel we have the right to march all over the place. Leave our trash...park wherever we wish. It has ticked off a few people I know. I thank people like OldManWinter for asking before just going ahead.

An angler's perspective

As a river angler, I can offer that fishermen frequently have no explicit 'right' to be where they want. They have to ask permission and be respectful.

I've never had any trouble hiking or fishing on anyone's land as long as I've remembered that, in the end, it's not mine to claim, and it might be their's.

Keeping it all in good fun,

--M.

From what I've read:

landowner is not concerned about snowmobile lawsuits, he is trying to expand snowmobile access.

I don't think I've read anywhere in the WMG that it's the bible, I've seen that reference in Backpacker & on websites, probably even on outdoors.org by users & I've used it when selling WMGm during my tenure at EMS. comparing your own book to "The Book" would see a bit brash for any organization, IMO. There are other guides to NH but few would say their book is more comphrensive for the White Mountains.

Maybe the new State Park in Jericho will help settle this. It is planned, from what I read in Gorham over the weekend, to allow ATV & sleds.

Kevin Rooney said:

As for the trailer park - now that one I hadn't heard. This one has many twists ... maybe we can really get people's shorts all twisted up if we get a rumor started that Walmart is looking at the land.

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Actually, the trailer park rumor does have some basis in fact. About five years ago, the owner applied to the Lancaster Zoning Board for a variance for an 88-site campground, including RV sites, on his parcel.

MichaelJ said:

Which is why the Forest Service won't press the Cabot landowner, even if he/she is in the legal wrong. They don't want to be seen as a brute squad and entice other landowners who have the right to cut off access to do so.

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My understanding is that there is a national Forest Service policy not to enforce ROW, in Colorado somebody actually built a house in the middle of a ROW and the FS did nothing.

Yes, there are kind landowners who allow hikers, hunters, etc. and we should do our best to treat them well. I don't see what that has to do with enforcing public rights to use deeded public access. If there is a question whether his deed allows public access, that is what courts are for, but this guy has already lost court fights over a denied subdivision, an RV park, and a neighbors right to cross his land, which is why he prefers intimidation. Suppose the descendents of J.E.Henry announce they no longer want hikers on Owls Head and Bond, should we honor this desire?

As to guns, the 2nd Amendment may give you a right to own firearms, but it does not give you a right to harm others with them absent any threat to yourself. Apparently some hikers to Mt Cabot have been threatened by an individual who may or may not be the landowner and somebody unknown wrote a threatening note in this file which was deleted by the moderators. In a similar situation, the RI state highpoint is on land owned by Brown U. with a ROW over someone elses land. The onetime-owner tried to keep hikers out and finally held some hikers at gunpoint and called the police, who came and arrested THAT LANDOWNER for using inappropriate force - he was not in any danger and could have just photographed them and called the police. He now has a felony conviction and cannot own guns any more. (The present landowner is much more friendly to hikers.)

So, we could continue to prove he's wrong, or just avoid the confrontation altogether by going the route that is requested.