Mt. Madison rescue: why so much anger??

Looking through the thread on the Madison rescue, I was struck by the intensity of the criticism and anger generated by this incident (as were some of the other posters). I want to throw out the question as to why so much intensity was generated? I believe that the criticism goes beyond what would be expected in response to a wide variety of annoying and bothersome things we run into on the trail: rude hikers, litter, poor care for the environment, dangerous situations caused by others, etc. So the answer to my question is not what bad judgment, poor choices or just plain stupid behavior was exhibited by the individuals involved, that's been gone over again and again. The answer is why that behavior creates such a huge (and in my view, excessive) response.

You probably guessed, I do have an opinion, but I'd like to hear others. What I came to was that the more angry and critical we get of others' poor judgment, bad decisions and panicked behavior, the more we feel that this could never happen to us, that we're "above" that sort of thing. Only problem is that while we may not do the same things that the folks did on Madison, I would venture that we all have had our moments of very bad judgment, bad choices and yes, even panic, that we probably survived one way or another. It can just take one very bad/wrong decision, made under duress, one brief lapse of attention to one's footing, one misstep, one unpredicted change in the weather to lead to a very bad situation. This is not real pleasant to dwell on and accept. So of course we need to learn from others' (and our own) mistakes and do our best to avoid repeating them. But we also have to accept our fallibility, our frailty and some of the inherent risks in what we do, no matter how prepared and well conditioned. As long as we can keep criticizing, we can keep up the illusion that it can only happen to them, not to us. Hopefully I'm not sounding too preachy, this is something I've been thinking about for a long time, and I have had to work hard to subdue my own tendency to pile on the criticism at times.

...and why do we need a new thread on this?

Lovetohike said:

The answer is why that behavior creates such a huge (and in my view, excessive) response.

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I agree with NHMtnHiker, wouldn't this create an even MORE "excessive" response?

PS - I agree with much of what you said, but these kids were idiots (heading for a closed hut), thats why such a huge response I think.

A couple of observations -

1) Those posters who've been climbing for many years know how easy it is, even for highly experienced people, to have things turn sour. As a result, most are slow to pass judgement ("there but for the Grace of God ..."). Some of the most vocal critics have yet to complete even a single round of the NH 4's.

2) There's the human tendency to act from fear, and witnessing the mishaps of others can trigger the fear they, too, will make serious mistakes. Therefore, if one acts with great bluster and bravado, he can attempt to convince himself, and others, that he's not really afraid. As the Great Bard once said "Methinks thou dost protest too much".

Well said by Kevin Rooney. The harsh and derogatory criticism toward the trio on Mt Madison is unneccessary, but overall it's very beneficial to discuss all the mistakes made. We don't dangle from ropes in the Himalayas, but hiking in the northeast can be dangerous, especially for newbies, but also for the most experienced. A very experienced veteran hiker froze to death on the Twinnway, possibly due to a judgement error about how cold it would be that night, or maybe a bad forecast.

This is a life-and-death topic, so I don't mind lenghty, constructive criticism and discussion. We can all learn more.

Happy Trails!

what anger?

just a bit of fun with the topic

I didn't sense any "anger" in the thread at all. I thought it was a well discussed topic with various "methods" of "discussing" the issue. People have different ways of expressing themselves. I think the main point of why these guys got hammered more than "usual" was becuase they were going to a closed hut. This doesn't reflect at all on their skills - but rather simple carelessness.

Personally, I was more suprised at the comments from others than the actual issue at hand. I did admit, I probably took it to far last week. As many threads do - it spun a bit out of control - but I see no harm in that.

But - I haven't completed a round of the 48 - so I probably shouldn't have voiced my opinion on the topic - maybe I am scared

What Rooney said.....

and I've only finished 1 of the 48.... btw, whats a hut?

NH_Mtn_Hiker said:

...and why do we need a new thread on this?

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The only good reason that I can see so far is that it gave Kevin Rooney an opportunity to present a concise and precise point-of-view that I find worthy of consideration.

Toss in another endorsement of Kevin Rooney's observations.

G.

giggy said:

I didn't sense any "anger" in the thread at all.

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I personally wouldn't have called it anger--just an over-ambitious rush to denigrate (diss for the young'uns ) the victims/rescuees before the facts were in. Perhaps some hope to convince themselves (and others?) that they are too smart/knowledgeable/experienced to make similar mistakes/have problems. I can only guess why, but IMO, it is unwarrented.

A frequent theme seems to be judging the actions of beginners by the standards of experienced hikers. We were all beginners once and even the most experienced can still make mistakes. I certainly did some things as a beginner that I now view as "less than best practice".

I'm with Kevin on this one.

Doug

Kevin Rooney said:

A couple of observations -

1) Those posters who've been climbing for many years know how easy it is, even for highly experienced people, to have things turn sour. As a result, most are slow to pass judgement ("there but for the Grace of God ..."). Some of the most vocal critics have yet to complete even a single round of the NH 4's.

2) There's the human tendency to act from fear, and witnessing the mishaps of others can trigger the fear they, too, will make serious mistakes. Therefore, if one acts with great bluster and bravado, he can attempt to convince himself, and others, that he's not really afraid. As the Great Bard once said "Methinks thou dost protest too much".

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Fear certainly enters the equation for most..."if I do this long enough, eventually something bad will happen." We all like to think we are smarter than the unfortunate ones - "I would never have done anything that stupid." Truth is, we all have and do...and we often do it again after we should have learned better.
We all have our little mishaps - I fell three times this past weekend on wet rocks on the Moats...just luck that nothing real bad happened...i was being careful, but when the rocks are greased there is no much you can do...it happens...

Um...I don't know what completing any round of the NH 4's has to do with...well anything. Experience, well maybe...you have been out at least 40+ times.

Maybe it just me...I agree/respect with Kevin in regards to his point of view. As do I with the others that point out the simplicity of the errors made with the "Madison rescue" (To this point).

I'm with Giggy on this...this is a forum to express all points of view. (The good, the bad, the ugly).

Anyways...I am glad they are safe.

Peace.

Jaytrek57 -

I don't know what completing any round of the NH 4's has to do with...well anything. Experience, well maybe...you have been out at least 40+ times

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Nothing magical about the NH 4's, but most of the posters on that thread hiked in the Whites, not the ADKs. Truth be told, a round of the ADKs is tougher than the Whites, and produce a more experienced hiker.

Personally, I'm not much interested in someone's opinion of an incident/accident unless they've made hundreds of climbs/hikes in all seasons in a similar mountain range. IMHO is takes a very long time to acquire the basic skills, work thru the arrogance those skills engender, and experience enough bad times in the hills to realize how thin the line is between getting down safely or not.

Yes, this is a discussion board, and we should have the ability to discuss all the various aspects of an incident/accident, and attempt to figure out what went wrong. But, it's one thing to say that the hikers had insufficient/incorrect information and quite another to repeatedly label them as idiots. Calling someone an idiot is never OK.

Kevin

Lovetohike said:

Looking through the thread on the Madison rescue, I was struck by the intensity of the criticism and anger generated by this incident (as were some of the other posters). I want to throw out the question as to why so much intensity was generated?

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Not naming individuals at all, so nobody reply saying I am. But, I've always said there are two ways to show someone you are doing a good job. One way is to do a good job. The other way is to make the other guy look bad.

Reason I bring this up, is that it makes people feel good about themselves by pointing out others mistakes. I personally don't find it productive to do so....at least not eight pages worth. I think it's fairly obvious that these people made some mistakes, put other people's lifes in danger, and are certainly lucky to be alive. I think that's been covered ad nauseum.

Even if you have completed the NH 4000 footers, does that make a difference? Is one person more experienced than the other, or does that make someone smarter or more cautious? A person could do all 48 without ever spending the night in the woods or even without any real equipment. You could do that all in summer in sneakers without a backpack if you wanted. Is that experience? I'm just defending a point but I believe it's more common sense than anything and I know that everyone has or will make mistakes.

Just because a person has driven a car for 20 years does not neccessarily make them a good driver.

Kevin Rooney said:

Personally, I'm not much interested in someone's opinion of an incident/accident unless they've made hundreds of climbs/hikes in all seasons in a similar mountain range.

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Brutus has done all that, right? Should we consider his opinion over that of someone who doesn't care about lists but has spent countless days, nights, storms, bluebird days, scary moments and summit beers on the same handful of mountains?

While I'm a peakbagger through and through (do you know all the 1000 foot peaks in southern Penobscot County, within a lunch hours drive of Orono and which can be scaled on rainy Thursdays in May?), I do recognize that lists really don't make you (i.e. one) qualified. I agree with your "hundred of climbs/hikes" sentiment but I don't believe it has anything to do with lists.

IIRC Mr. Metsky just recently finished his 67 on Abraham. Are you calling him an amateur????

spencer

spencer said:

Brutus has done all that, right? Should we consider his opinion over that of someone who doesn't care about lists but has spent countless days, nights, storms, bluebird days, scary moments and summit beers on the same handful of mountains?
spencer

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Brutus has an incredible memory of trails (I suspect many/most dogs do) which can be invaluable in poor weather or low light, but has terrible taste in beer. Never listen to him on that!

Seriously - I used the term lists because that's how most hikers 'measure' their experience level. There are other measures as well. By the same token - there's a different level in expertise/competence depending upon how long someone takes to climb any given list. For example - I'd consider someone more knowledgeable if they completed the NE67 in say, 3 years, as opposed to 15. Am not directing that any one in particular.

As for Dave M. - he's a great moderator, historian, knowledgable about USFS/AMC/RMC rules and regs, and I'm sure a wonderful husband and provider. But - since you've asked me a point-blank question - I've never hiked with him, and can't truly discern his level of expertise because that's not his role on these boards. So - keep doing what you're doing, Dave. Your skills are appreciated.

Kevin

Kevin Rooney said:

As for Dave M . . . . I'm sure a wonderful husband and provider. Kevin

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Heeeyyyy Dave . . . when did you go and get married

sli74

Kevin Rooney said:

Nothing magical about the NH 4's, but most of the posters on that thread hiked in the Whites, not the ADKs. Truth be told, a round of the ADKs is tougher than the Whites, and produce a more experienced hiker.

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Don't take no crap Kevin, tell em' like it is, your word is the gospel. Your my new hero.

I've seen these posts come and go over the years and you know what, they ALWAYS end the same. A bunch of people philosophizing about situations and stuff they don't have all the facts on. I remember a particularly nasty thread a few years back when a little boy strolled into the woods and everyone here pontificated on everything from the negligence of the parents to theories of murder and mayhem. What actually happened was a little boy got lost and then he died, which actually was the lost fact in it all.

I used to participate, don't now. I recently spent a day in the deep trackless Adirondack wilderness miles from anywhere and bushwhacking a remote peak with my 15 y/o. I did everything in my power to be safe and to be self-reliant and consider myself {semi-}experienced enough to handle it. Luckily things went fine, but the line is a thin one at times.

All the while knowing, 1, or 2 wrong moves or a bad twist of the knee, and I could have provided the fodder for a 5-10 page thread on what a moron I am/was and all the things I did wrong. Mostly be people who have no idea who I am. No thanks.

I don't judge, lest I be judged myself.....

I think the single best thing ANY "new", "inexperienced", "beginner", "newbie" hiker could do is set themselves up with someone who HAS the exparience. Thankfully we have pretty close online communities like this one, though care should be taken as this IS the internet and its easy to make yourself out as something your not. But if you spend months and months reading posts, it becomes clear who you can probably trust to be a thoughtful, intelligent and sane leader. Outside of these online communities there are orginizations like the AMC, who provide experinced leaders for group outings. I have been at this for just about a year now. I realized long ago there is quite a ways for me to go before I become anything close to experinced like some of the more noteable people on this board, like Mr. Metzky, Mr. Rooney and Mr. Ellozy. Most of my hiking this year has been done with good, solid people like Pucknuts, SilentCal and MtnMagic. I learn by doing and listening. I think it makes me a bteer hiker, a safer hiker, and a more intelligent trail-wise person. Analyzing accidents is helpful in helping to make one aware of certain potential problems to be avoided. But dumb mistakes can and do happen. I guess it comes to a metter of opinion what is "negligent" hiking and an "accident". But either way it perhaps reflects badly when one uselessly berates people for making the mistake. Hopefully the face turns red, you admit your mistake, pay the penalty (if there need be one) and be glad you still have a pulse.

Sorry for the rambling, but I guess my point is this. I agree with Kevin, I agree with Giggy, I agree wth Jaytrek. We all seem to have the same general understanding....just different ways of looking at it.

Peace, and safe trails.

Brian