Raingear that works?

For some reason, I've been thinking about my raingear lately...

On Zealand last Saturday, Gator, Sadie, and I were all commenting about how much we hated our raincoats. Gator had recently bought one that was supposed to be good but wasn't. I knew mine situation was bad. Given the choice of either the heavy Gore-Tex hard shell I use in winter or a 100% nylon EMS jacket, I went with the nylon and soon found the jacket wet on the inside and the outside (knew that would happen). Sadie had a similar situation and then just opted to take off her raincoat part way through.

Does anyone have any recommendations for raingear that actually keeps the water out but is contructed well enough to be light and to offer a decent amount of ventilation?

Ross -

I use a Marmot Precip Jacket that works very well...they go for around $100 (I got a close out for atound $69 I beleive)...I am very down on heavier shells...I do not think they are worth the weight...just my opinion...The Precip was great last weekend in the monsoon on Bondcliff (where were you???)
I usually do not worry about my lower half when it is over 40-50 degrees (but I wear shorts and do not hike naked ), but I have a nice pair of full zip rain pants from Campmor - about $29...they work great...they do not breath, but it does not matter as you can adjust the side zip/velcro to get to a comfortable range. In the winter I wear snowboard pants with suspenders - also work great...
Marmot also makes a Precip pant.

I found that Frogg Toggs work well for me. I don't think any rain gear breaths as much water out as the body produces, but the frogg toggs breath much better then my gortex. Gortex is more hype then anything, keeps water out, but also keeps most of the body sweat in. The whole suit weighs in at 13 oz. and only cost around 70 dollars. That is for top and bottom. The frogg toggs are not for bushwackers, they are a bit on the delicate side. I have had mine for 3 years now and many miles thru the rain. The one tear I have on the pants was fixed w/ duct tape, and all is good.

I've pretty much given up on thinking that any rain gear is going to keep me dry and breathe while I'm hiking in warmer temperatures. I always carry it and often wear it but concentrate more on making sure that I have enough extra clothes in my pack to get and keep me warm and dry if I am stalled by injury or benighted. I am fairly obsessive about keeping the pack and its contents dry--clothes are in a garbage-bag lined stuff sack, which is in a garbarge-bag lined pack, which has a rain cover. That usually works.

I use Marmot Precip raingear over lightweight Smartwool baselayers and have no problems. If I get too warm, I take off the Precip and just use the Smartwool.

I have a bottom of the line North Face GTX jacket sans liner with pit zips.
It is waterproof, and it does breathe.

However, last weekend and during other downpours, it does get wet inside. It's sweat that doesn't transfer out of the coat plus the humidity of the air. In order for the moisture to be moved effectively from one side of the GTX to the other, it needs to be less wet outside, which pulls the water through the pores in the fabric. So, a downpour is not the ideal situation for the GTX to work the way it is supposed to.

For example, on a winter hike I wore a wool sweater which soon was wet and covered with snow from brushing branches. I put my NF jacket over top of the snowy wet sweater and wore it that way for the rest of the hike. Upon arriving at the car many hours later the inside of my jacket and the sweater were bone dry. Based on this, I KNOW that my jacket breathes.

So, I don't think it matters what you wear, if it pours, you're going to be wet one way or another, feet included.

Ditto on the Precip. It kept me very dry during a cold, wind-driven rain hike last Saturday. You could get it for $60-$65 plus shipping at REI Outlet or Sierra Trading Post, at least as of Sunday.

I'm with Waumbek, if it's warm and raining, I am going to get wet. My goal is to stay warm and comfortable, not dry.

However, most folks don't maintain their jackets/pants. You should reapply the DWR (like scotchguard, many brands) to the outside of the garment which is what makes the water bead up. That is what allows the jacket to breathe. If water is sheeting over the outside of your jacket, it can't breathe no matter what the temp or humidity is.

-dave-

Propore 02

ripple said:

I found that Frogg Toggs work well for me. I don't think any rain gear breaths as much water out as the body produces, but the frogg toggs breath much better then my gortex.

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Propore 02 is by far the most "breathable" waterproof raingear I've tried. Very lightweight, similar to Frog Toggs, not very durable. More than adequate for on-trail use though.
When 'whack-in I bring along a Red Ledge for durability, along with the Propore. Together they weigh less than a gortex anything (YMMV) but offer degrees of protection I once never thought possible.

Onestep

David Metsky said:

However, most folks don't maintain their jackets/pants. You should reapply the DWR (like scotchguard, many brands) to the outside of the garment which is what makes the water bead up. That is what allows the jacket to breathe. If water is sheeting over the outside of your jacket, it can't breathe no matter what the temp or humidity is.

-dave-

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You just described my rain gear. Thanks for the info.

My Gore-tex jacket works just fine for me. I wear it when the weather is cold and windy. Pit zips are always open, and I wear a minimal base layer. In hot temp, I just stay wet and change shirt before adding a warmer layer if I get above treeline.

Waterproof pants ? Only in winter conditions. I like to wear gaitors and shorts in summer.

It can get so complicated to stay dry, I just don't bother anymore. My hike is not less enjoyable for that. Little discomfort maybe, but when hiking, there's ALWAYS something that doesn't work perfectly anyway.

Gore-tex is heavy, but I don't want to see my wallet get Ultra-lite.

Double Bow said:

Does anyone have any recommendations for raingear that actually keeps the water out but is contructed well enough to be light and to offer a decent amount of ventilation?

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Skin! Go Naked! Seriously, if it's warm out I just wear normal clothes. I find it so difficult to not over heat.

-Dr. Wu

Paclite

I hear many folks talking about all kinds of raingear here, general discriptions.
Goretex comes in no less than 5 different types available.
Many other products out there as well, similar to standard Classic Goretex.
I own, or have tried nearly everything out there in wide ranges of conditions.
Lets get specific.

Paclite is your answer to warm weather waterproof dry hiking.
This material is light and extremely breathable, probably THE best for any waterproof materials out there.

So, you can suffer with "wanna-be breathables" which are "microporous" membranes of some sort.
Or, bite the bullit and get the REAL stuff.
Sure, you can pay big bucks for Paclite by North Face, Golight, Mt Hardware, Marmot, ect. All excellent choices and proven performance winners.

Or, you can save some serious cash and get this Rainy River Paclite at Cabela's.
I own one and I will suggest to order the TALL jacket for extended material below the butt.
Hey, it may not have pit-zips, but even this sweaty hiker seems to stay bone dry every time! The jacket does have extended side pockets with mesh liner which work to provide considerable venting.

I have the pants too, another great bargain.

The thing to remember about buying Paclite, the laminated material is produced by Goretex Ind, along with Gore approved construction methods by each manufacturer, which includes taped seams.
So, no matter what jacket brand you get, all the material will be the same, or very nearly the same. Some garment manufacturers do have proprietary exclusives with Gore for slight variations.

As with any warm weather breathable jacket, you must wear a wick layer to transport moisture away from you skin, where the jacket will then allow to pass.

My rain miles have been stacking up lately!

Jeff

I have a petty much top of the line marmot goretext xcr and I treat it yearly. and it typically works well - but stuff like last weekend - your gonna get wet and it doesn't always men the coat don't work - its just like water in the basement - water finds a way in through cracks, crevices, etc.. down the shirt, up the shorts, down thru the gaitor, etc..

I was soaked last weekend - now I haven't a clue if the jacket was leaking from too much water, sweat, etc . who knows. but in rains like that - i think your up the creek with no paddle and if ya head out in that crap - kind of expect it. last weekend was all that bad as it was "warm" - but what sucks (and this has happened to me) is when you get wet like that - and then it drops below 32 and everything freezes -

I use Red Ledge, ordered from Campmor. It's light and keeps the rain out. Not very expensive either.

Gortex doesn`t work. I`ll second the frog togs.

I use Red Ledge stuff also, with good results.

I agree with the several folks above: in a real downpour, you'll probably get wet. It's definitely important to have reliably dry clothes for after the rain (although this year you might have to wait until August to change!).

There's a couple threads on fabrics and fibers that are warm when wet, like wool. If you're serious about wet hikes, those are worth reading.

The other thing I do is be careful with where the water flows. Clothes, packs, etc., should be thought out like a roof. You don't water to accumulate anywhere (let's say between the top of a pack cover and your back). You also want to "shingle" layers over each other. So for example while gaiters are normally worn over pants (and for ice climbing they help contain the pants leg), in heavy rain I wear the gaiters under the pants, and it's more effective.

TCD
TCD

From Stevenson`s website

When it rains dumb people add rain wear over clothes which are already warm enough or too warm. That EXTRA layer causes overheat and sweat soaked clothes, and they blame the rainwear instead of excess layers for overheat. That stupidity was THE reason for the development of Goretex and the millions of $$ spent promoting it for what it isn’t. Smart ones avoid overheat by wearing less clothes under rainwear.
Most good rainwear is made of coated nonporous fabric. Since Gore defined “breathable” as passing water vapor about 1/20th as fast as uncoated fabric, (the same as most urethane coatings), and Goretex was promoted as preventing overheat solely due to it’s “breathability”, much of the rainwear made for big spenders is promoted as “breathable” (but note that Gore requires users of Goretex to put extra ventilation in their rain gear {such as “pit zips”, which also can’t work}, and also require a durable water repellant finish on exterior fabric so rain can never reach the Goretex film!) . But most users praise Goretex only for WARMTH, not coolness, which any rain gear can provide if it is snugly closed at neck and wrists so air can’t flow up thru it.
Most ski parkas and snowmobile suits are coated on the inner surface of outer fabric to block wind & water. Warmth is lost if they’re open at the bottom and top so air can flow up thru, like a chimney. Lighter weight warm humid air rises out upper openings and is replaced with cold dry air from below. It’s obvious that heat is lost warming that cold air. What isn’t so obvious is that the relative humidity of that air when warmed is extremely low. It DRIES your skin, dehydrates you, and takes away heat by evaporation.

Most gear rated as 'waterproof/breathable' works well, whether it's Goretex or the other proprietary coatings sold by Marmot, Patagonia or other top tier companies - they have too much to lose to sell stuff which doesn't work.

Don't confuse heavyduty 2 and 3 ply expedition shells with raingear: while they may use the same proprietary coatings, a top-of-the-line 3 ply expedition shell is a poor choice for basic raingear.

Patagonia probably makes the lightest raingear, but it's pricey. For alot less money and only slightly more weight, Marmot's Precip gives good value (I like it). Columbia is a good value, but is a bit heavier.

And of course, nearly anything that good ol' Beans makes is also a good value.

I guess I should have mentioned that I have Red Ledge full-zip rainpants that I use in the winter and summer and with which I am very happy. I also carry changes of shirts and socks in plastic in my pack (which has a pack cover).

It's the jacket that's the problem. My Columbia Gore-Tex shell is definately too heavy for anything but winter use (bomb proof) and the nylon jacket is wet inside even when I'm wearing just a tee shirt. It keeps the heat in way too much! I need something that is light, vents/breaths well, and isn't going to cost me much over $100. Sure, if it's hot out, I'll just go without a jacket but when the temps are in the 40's & 50's, I need to put something on!

So far, the PreCip and PacLite sound good. I'll check out Frogg Toggs as well. I question though, why is it said that pit zips can't work for breathability? I would think any opening would vent and allow you to stay cooler.