opinion on steps - Moved from Q&A

opinion on steps

Whats everyones opinion on these steps that are built into the trail. I know trail workers really did a lot of work to do this and I appreciate it. Not to mention they look good. I was doing blue mtn in the adirondacks last year when they were building them and the guys looked wore out, god bless them. I did ampersand last weekend and noonmark this weekend and the steps tend to put a lot of pressure on your legs. they are nice coming down but going up you are forced to take large steps staight up instead of smaller steps that are more comfortable. Maybe I am just getting old.

They do make it nice coming down off the mountains, but I think the reason they are there is not as an aid to hikers, but to help prevent erosion of the trails.

Rock or wood steps are the only way to make an erosion-proof trail in steep terrain. Rock is much preferable, since it lasts much longer and generally saves work in the long run even though they are harder to build.

The size of rock steps are often dictated by the rocks available, and the length of the legs of the folks doing trailwork. I think every crew should have one person under 5' 6" just to make sure that they don't build steps with too high a rise. However, when all you have a huge rocks, sometimes that's not possible.

-dave-

Adk_dib said:

I was doing blue mtn in the adirondacks last year when they were building them and the guys looked wore out, god bless them.

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Here's JR and Jen working on setting a rock on Algonquin; long, slow work:

http://newmud.comm.uottawa.ca/~pete/jrb1.jpg

You can tell, by the angle they are leaning, that they are exerting a lot of force to move that thing.

I did ampersand last weekend and noonmark this weekend and the steps tend to put a lot of pressure on your legs. they are nice coming down but going up you are forced to take large steps staight up instead of smaller steps that are more comfortable. Maybe I am just getting old.

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IMO, steps are a LOT easier on the leg muscles. Try climbing a nice smooth slide, and you will be begging for steps. Much easier when the foot is flat.

David Metsky said:

The size of rock steps are often dictated by the rocks available, and the length of the legs of the folks doing trailwork. I think every crew should have one person under 5' 6" just to make sure that they don't build steps with too high a rise. However, when all you have a huge rocks, sometimes that's not possible.

-dave-

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Excellent point. You are dependant on the materials you immediately have available to you. However, since it is the backcountry it's going to be a tough sell to say "Hey, that step is too large for me."

I'm over 6', and I have often hiked with my 5'4" mother. Hopping across a stream is vastly different for each of us. Conversely, going around and under blowdowns is a piece of cake for her.

I was climbing Algonquin yesterday, and there was a young ADK crew building some steps on a section of trail. But, it didn't really seem steep enough to warrant steps in that location.

I do like that they are starting to brush the trail in to make it narrower, so it doesn't seem like you are walking up a road.

Rivet said:

I was climbing Algonquin yesterday, and there was a young ADK crew building some steps on a section of trail. But, it didn't really seem steep enough to warrant steps in that location.

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Maybe not too steep, but steep enough to have caused a lot of erosion. That trail has lost several feet of soil over the past dozedn or so years.

I think every crew should have one person under 5' 6" just to make sure that they don't build steps with too high a rise.

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I fit the bill!

I like variety, if there is a day where I am rock hopping, by the end of the day, I will be trying to avoid stairs and stones.
Kind of like climbing hills on my bike, I will alternate between standing and sitting, just to utilize different leg muscles.

Jay

David Metsky said:

I think every crew should have one person under 5' 6" just to make sure that they don't build steps with too high a rise.

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We use Joan when she's with us. I think that she's 4'10".

Adk_dib said:

Whats everyones opinion on these steps that are built into the trail. I know trail workers really did a lot of work to do this and I appreciate it. Not to mention they look good. I was doing blue mtn in the adirondacks last year when they were building them and the guys looked wore out, god bless them. I did ampersand last weekend and noonmark this weekend and the steps tend to put a lot of pressure on your legs. they are nice coming down but going up you are forced to take large steps staight up instead of smaller steps that are more comfortable. Maybe I am just getting old.

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Getting back to the original question (quoted above), I generally like and appreciate steps when I come to them along a steep section of trail. Large steps are difficult for me, though.

Well executed rock staircases always seem to my eye like trailwork art at its best. Things to be marveled over.

G.

Rock steps are far more prevalent on New England trails than New York, and I think that's more a function of the differences in the length of time/resources devoted to formal trailbuilding between the two regions. Formal trailbuilding in some mountain ranges, like the Whites of NH, have been going on for hundreds of years, whereas it's a relatively new activity in the ADKs. As Dave Metsky points out, over time they make the most sense. Rock steps aren't the only ones with inappropriate heights, though. We've all seen steps made with logs that are too high as well.

Kevin Rooney said:

We've all seen steps made with logs that are too high as well.

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And the roots and naturally placed rocks (before the trail crew places steps) aren't always at the optimum heights either...

Doug

David Metsky said:

However, when all you have a huge rocks, sometimes that's not possible.

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What, Dave, you don't have drills and feathers?

It always amuses me that the same people who think blazes are environmentally insensitive don't seem to mind steps which disrupt a larger area and last longer.

I appreciate everything that trail builders do, but high steps really do defeat their own purpose because people will walk along the sides. Climbing up with a heavy pack can be nearly impossible.

We once watched steps being constructed on the Marston trail in BSP. They were prying gigantic boulders out of a nearby gully about 7 - 8 feet below the level of the trail. We couldn't stick around long enough to see how they got those boulders up out of the gully.

Pete_Hickey said:

IMO, steps are a LOT easier on the leg muscles. Try climbing a nice smooth slide, and you will be begging for steps. Much easier when the foot is flat.

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I like rock steps for this same reason. My quads have much more power and endurance (for steps) than my calves (for steep inclines).
Plus, with my plantar fasciitis it's much better for me to flat foot it than to ascend something on the ball of my feet.

audrey said:

I appreciate everything that trail builders do, but high steps really do defeat their own purpose because people will walk along the sides. Climbing up with a heavy pack can be nearly impossible.

We once watched steps being constructed on the Marston trail in BSP. They were prying gigantic boulders out of a nearby gully about 7 - 8 feet below the level of the trail. We couldn't stick around long enough to see how they got those boulders up out of the gully.

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I've seen then doing this in the Deleware river area the past few months...green dot trail I think it is.....they were using a "come along" hand winch...2 trees...you get the idea...time consuming, but...effective.

M

Of course we've seen many of these over the years, but the ones we continue to marvel at are the steps on Ampersand. Quite a lot of work must have gone into those! I know that trail has had a history of erosion. They may be there to help the trail, not just to make it convenient for hikers, but personally I'd prefer dealing with steps rather than slip-sliding through mud.

One of the better examples of rock staircase work that I’ve enjoyed is on the Long Trail in Vermont, where the route northbound climbs the flank of Mt. Horrid from Brandon Gap. Well done, and almost subtle – very natural look and feel.

G.

KMartman said:

I've seen then doing this in the Deleware river area the past few months...green dot trail I think it is.....they were using a "come along" hand winch...2 trees...you get the idea...time consuming, but...effective.

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For the big stuff, a 'High Line' is often used (note: THere are regional variations in its name.)

A cable ssytem is strung high between trees, and the rock is lifted off the ground, and moved. Just like clothes on a clothesline, only heavier.

Note the steel cables at the bottom of the pack:

http://newmud.comm.uottawa.ca/~pete/tmpadk/jrpack2.jpg

http://newmud.comm.uottawa.ca/~pete/tmpadk/jrpack3.jpg

That was after building some steps on Algonquin in the Adironcacks last year.

Building a rock stairway up through my rock garden (meant to be like a trail) gave me a big appreciation of the work involved out on the real trails.

My only complaint about steps is when a group of hikers decide to use them as their personal seats and sit there without moving while you try to maneuver your way through them.