Oh the wildness of the Whites without Huts...

giggy said:

yes - I know that, but still don't believe they are not making huge profit from the huts and that doesn't change the fact that that it restricts many families from going. I think its borderline inapproriate for a non profit to behave that way. I think they are sold out most weekends so I guess it doesn't matter.

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I'm not an AMC advocate, but I did join a couple years back to get access to one of their unstaffed camp huts down here. If you read the AMC 2005 annual report, assuming it can be trusted , their "Outdoor Centers" and "Programs" represent 66% of their expenses and 46% of their revenue. So while I'm sure individual huts are wildly profitable that income, Member Dues and Fund Raising does subsidize their overall "Outdoor Centers" and "Programs" efforts. But the huts are too expensive for your average and even above average income families.

Please read my disclaimer before throwing me onto the AMC train-tracks !

From 2005 AMC annual report (http://www.outdoors.org/pdf/upload/AMC 2005 Annual Report.pdf)

Outdoor centers revenue: $6.1M
Outdoor centers expenses: $6.4M

Mattl said:

When you say too many roads..and no large blocks of forest I beg to differ. I know the Adk have very wild areas but so do the whites. Did you just hike 4000 footers? The Pemi region is the second largest roadless block in New England next to Baxter at 126,000 acres or so, then the next few largest in a row are in the Whites. The whites hold the largest total large blocks in New England. For some thats good, others its not. It means that logging isn't practiced enough people think, for successional forest. This can take a toll on wildflife. If you get away from the major peaks you can find some truly wild areas for New England standards. Taking out desolation shelter caused quite a few people to not visit that area as often. Which makes me believe that with the absense of a place to feel secure and stay people simple will not visit. I still have not seen a hiker while being near stillwater. A perfect example.-Mattl

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I assume you are basing this post on the AMC study found here. I thought people might like to see the statistics. Looking at the top 15 roadless areas ranked by size, I see 7 in ME, 6 in NH, and 2 in VT. The total amount of roadless area for each (acres) are 484,300 for ME, 403,500 for NH, and 81,200 for VT. Looks as though they only looked at New England... it would be interesting to see some numbers for the ADKs.

edit: Whoops, looks like Chip beat me to it!

injektilo said:

I assume you are basing this post on the AMC study found here. I thought people might like to see the statistics. Looking at the top 15 roadless areas ranked by size, I see 7 in ME, 6 in NH, and 2 in VT. The total amount of roadless area for each (acres) are 484,300 for ME, 403,500 for NH, and 81,200 for VT. Looks as though they only looked at New England... it would be interesting to see some numbers for the ADKs.

edit: Whoops, looks like Chip beat me to it!

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Wow! NH has 403,000 roadless and is far smaller than ME. Looks like someone is doing a better job. In all seriousness, great thread.

grouseking

grouseking said:

Wow! NH has 403,000 roadless and is far smaller than ME. Looks like someone is doing a better job. In all seriousness, great thread.

grouseking

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Yeah, I suspect the Maine numbers should be taken with a grain of salt as the future of many of those acres are uncertain at best.

Credit to the "Croos"

Hey,
nobody has mentioned that the staff of each AMC Hut must go through a SARR program to have the ability to rescue those in distress. This makes each huts location a strategic safe haven and dispatch quarters.

I have wintenssed first hand the "Croo" dispatched out into wicked weather to retrive lost hikers, AMC Hut travelers, daytrippers and overnight backpackers.

These young folks are dedicated to helping anyway they can with food, first aid and shelter.

You will always find a friendly atmosphere to welcome all travelers a safe place, even for a temporary period.

Permits...

Anybody here remember the permit system once in use in the Great Gulf?

http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/14963

injektilo said:

. Looking at the top 15 roadless areas ranked by size, I see 7 in ME, 6 in NH, and 2 in VT. The total amount of roadless area for each (acres) are 484,300 for ME, 403,500 for NH, and 81,200 for VT. Looks as though they only looked at New England... it would be interesting to see some numbers for the ADKs.

Click to expand...

The study supplies an implicit reason why New York was not included in the painstaking satellite photograph survey of roadless areas in the Northern Forest. The study "was developed to assist public agencies, land trusts, conservation organizations, and local citizens in the identification of ecologically significant portions of the landscape and the development of specific conservation proposals." It noted that "only about 12% of the region is managed as natural area, with well over 90% of this in three large public ownerships (the Adirondack State Park, the White Mountain National Forest, and Baxter State Park in Maine)."

And the kicker: "The Adirondack State Park encompasses about three-quarters of all the natural area in the region [the Northern Forest]." Thus, the study was aimed at identifying areas of the Northern Forest that should be managed and protected - along the lines of what has been accomplished under the historic "forever wild" clause in the New York State Constitution.

Jeff-B said:

Hey,
nobody has mentioned that the staff of each AMC Hut must go through a SARR program to have the ability to rescue those in distress. This makes each huts location a strategic safe haven and dispatch quarters.

I have wintenssed first hand the "Croo" dispatched out into wicked weather to retrive lost hikers, AMC Hut travelers, daytrippers and overnight backpackers.

These young folks are dedicated to helping anyway they can with food, first aid and shelter.

You will always find a friendly atmosphere to welcome all travelers a safe place, even for a temporary period.

Click to expand...

great point - don''t think anyone here would question the dedication of the croo folks, who are up there for the love of the mtns

Jeff-B said:

Hey,
nobody has mentioned that the staff of each AMC Hut must go through a SARR program to have the ability to rescue those in distress. This makes each huts location a strategic safe haven and dispatch quarters.

Click to expand...

Excellent point. So, say, for example, you were lost and injured along the Hellgate Brook. If a SAR was dispatched to save you, it's entirely probable they would have come from Galehead Hut. Looks to be the closest spot. Hmmm, interesting.

maineguy said:

Anybody here remember the permit system once in use in the Great Gulf?

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Yes, and also in Davis Path area. For 6 Husbands-Great Gulf Trail day hike loop we had to get 2 permits as we would be entering and leaving the Wilderness twice. For Davis Path I once got a permit made by a bored clerk copying the previous permit on the pad, who of course was going somewhere entirely different.

I never believed that they would go away, or that there soon wouldn't be a fee. So I was wrong, once

Wilderness definition

Just a couple of comments/questions (I was out havin' fun all day):

Re: Chris B's post #47 on page 4, "Wilderness" in this case refers to those areas with federal wilderness designation. Obviously the Pemi Wilderness (large case "W") doesn't qualify as a true wilderness (small case "w"), a la Alaska, but it DOES have federal wilderness designation. Actually, I can't think of too many places in the lower 48 that qualify as "wilderness" under the criteria listed.

And a question for Chip, post #86 on page 6: What exactly is the definition of "The Northern Forest?" Just curious because I happen to live in it!

Northern Forest Stinky

Stinkyfeet said:

And a question for Chip, post #86 on page 6: What exactly is the definition of "The Northern Forest?" Just curious because I happen to live in it!

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my guess from the map is that there are 2 (maybe 3) criteria:

(1) % forest cover -- you will note that there are a few "north" areas excluded, it looks like the Aroostook agricultural (potato?) areas, Lake Champlain, and the St. Lawrence R & other areas north of Adirondack Park.

(2) forest type -- there is heavy forest cover in areas south of the map shown, but it's different. Northern NH and much of Maine consists of mostly spruce/fir rather than the hardwoods found in central/southern NH. (I don't have much experience w/ NY & VT)

(3) land ownership -- public lands or primarily large blocks of timberland. not sure about this one.

A good source of info about the complex issues surrounding this area of the US, that is perhaps (ahem) more neutral than AMC's studies, is "The Northern Forest" by Dobbs & Ober.

Chip said:

...But the huts are too expensive for your average and even above average income families...

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Says who? While unemployed ($0 income) I stayed at three huts with an assistant librarian.

Mattl said:

I still have not seen a hiker while being near stillwater. A perfect example.-Mattl

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I have...I saw Dr.Wu there.

I vote for the permit approach. Designate certain areas as low-density backcountry recreation, no more than X people per day. Not sure what X is, but it should be ecologically-driven rather than by subjective aesthetics.

arghman said:

I vote for the permit approach. Designate certain areas as low-density backcountry recreation, no more than X people per day. Not sure what X is, but it should be ecologically-driven rather than by subjective aesthetics.

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My esteemed colleague, what and where are we discussing? The entire WMNF? Why do we need a permit system? I see no problems with the status quo, and I definitely don't want to ask for official permission to dayhike the Bonds. "Sorry, but today was sold out months ago. Put your name on the list and hope for nice weather that day."

Ask yourself the following question:

"What do I want? Do I want wilderness, or do I want a playground which has the illusion of wilderness?"

Can't we all just get along?

I love the Whites. They are beautiful, majestic mountains. If I'm alone, that's great. But if there happens to be 100 people with me on the summit, no problem! I can talk while I soak in the views.

Either way, the mountains are the mountains, and people do not diminish my experience of them simply by being there.