List rules?

OK, all you serious listers out there, a question: may a person fairly claim a 4K if he has hiked to the top and skied back down to the bottom?

I was thinking that would be a fun way to finish on Tecumseh one of these years.

It counts if you ski down in summer. Winter rules might be different ?

This may vary from club to club, but most clubs allow skiing both up and down. Although this is normally done on XC skis, I do not see anything that would preclude downhill skis. You probably need to finish (either on ski or foot) at a trailhead. From Four Thousand Footer Club FAQ.

I don't know if the slippery slope argument extends to toboggans and sleds.

Mad Townie said:

OK, all you serious listers out there, a question: may a person fairly claim a 4K if he has hiked to the top and skied back down to the bottom?

Click to expand...

Yes, for the WMNF 4Ks. (Don't know about other areas.) I suspect that you have to carry your own skis up to really be ethical/legal... (Presumably also applies to sleds and toboggans.)

I have only summited Owl's Head on skis (both up and down), and I'm claiming it.

Doug

The way I understand the rules are that if you either use the skis to climb, or carry them on the climb, you are allowed to use them to ski down, and claim the summit for your list. The same does NOT hold true for bicycles. Even if one were to carry the bike to a summit, riding it back down would not constitute a successful ascent and descent of said peak. Seems a bit contradictory (though carrying a bike would seem a bit foolish ), but that is my understanding of the rules. You can find more info on the Four Thousand Footer Club Faq's HERE

This was recently discussed here
Sking - mtn biking 4k rules

I did Tecumseh last October 30th just after the snow storm(the biggest of the winter!) and skied down. The skis kept hitting overhanging trees and dumped snow down my back on the way up, but the ride down was deffinitely worth it.

Trip report and pics are here

Mark Schaefer said:

I don't know if the slippery slope argument extends to toboggans and sleds.

Click to expand...

It has to. Otherwise anyone who has ridden a fully loaded sled part way down the Chimney Pond Trail wouldn't be able to claim a winter ascent of Baxter or Hamlin Peaks.

Or maybe it's considered OK if you're risking your life on the way down? Sherp, would that clear you for Killington?

Thanks, everyone. I had read the FTFC FAQ, but I thought there might be a rule against it somewhere. Of course carrying the skis (and the boots--my plastics don't fit my alpine bindings) would be a necessary part of the deal.

Wow, we could get even more esoteric and question whether a person who uses the huts can properly claim the peaks on that trip. After all, someone else carried the food, the shelter and at least some of the water!

Seems to me that Tecumseh in winter would be an ideal way to finish the 48/67.

Seems to me that Tecumseh in winter would be an ideal way to finish the 48/67.

Click to expand...

NAW, telemarking down one of the more diffiuclt trails on Cannon would be tho...

ps - i'm all over/up fopr skiing as many as poss in winter - a multi-year project for me tho...

Mad Townie said:

OK, all you serious listers out there, a question: may a person fairly claim a 4K if he has hiked to the top and skied back down to the bottom?

I was thinking that would be a fun way to finish on Tecumseh one of these years.

Click to expand...

Yes - skis, snowshoes, sleds - all are OK in terms of the rules. What isn't OK via the 'rules' are things with wheels and or/or motorized - bicyles, tricycles, ATVs, snowmobiles - for any part of the journey. In addition to Tecumseh, Cannon, Moosilauke, Wildcat, Hale, or Garfield are often skied - if you're REALLY good, most of them can be skied.

What is a bit of a grey area is the location of the trailhead. This isn't much of an issue in summer, but is in winter. For example - sometimes the road into Zealand will be open, or at least partway (to a town's water supply). Leaving from US302 is a much longer hike than several miles in. Another issue re: trailhead is the time limit constraint: for example - is it acceptable to be at the summer TH for Zealand when 'official' winter begins, or do you have to begin at US302?

These issues are similar for other TH's as well which are located in USFS roads, which are usually closed long before official winter, but occasionally are opened due to special projects, like logging, rebuilding of an AMC hut, etc.

Actually, sleds are NOT considered acceptable for winter decents for the same reason bikes are not considered acceptable. The rules of the FTFC require that the climb and descent be done "on foot". They allow skis and snowshoes because you are still "on foot", not sitting.

Double Bow said:

Actually, sleds are NOT considered acceptable for winter decents for the same reason bikes are not considered acceptable. The rules of the FTFC require that the climb and descent be done "on foot". They allow skis and snowshoes because you are still "on foot", not sitting.

Click to expand...

What if one uses their own backside as a sled? I did Sugarloaf one winter and my hiking partner and I made it down to the bottom in 25 minutes by sliding down on our butts. I still remember the looks on skiers' faces as they passed us slowly as we slid beside them. We just dug in our heels at the top of a headwall and popped up, standing with the skiers, said hi, then threw ourselves down the hill once again. Maybe a tad dangerous, list illegal, and snowpant-detrimental, but it was a heckuva lot of fun!

Gris said:

ps - i'm all over/up fopr skiing as many as poss in winter - a multi-year project for me tho...

Click to expand...

Kevin Rooney said:

In addition to Tecumseh, Cannon, Moosilauke, Wildcat, Hale, or Garfield are often skied - if you're REALLY good, most of them can be skied.

Click to expand...

They're all possible! Many were better than expected...

Of course, I'm not a lister. Questions like "which trailhead" and "starting no earlier than the stroke of midnight" don't get me going. All that matters is the snowpack!

You're probably right, Double-Bow, about the sleds. But, as Pamola points out - depending on the snowpack, glissading is often done. Would be hard to see a distinction between having a pair of Goretex pants between your butt and the snow and having a pair of Goretex pants plus a bit of nylon. But then - it's all on the honor system anyway, so for those who feel that glisssading is 'cheating' they probably won't 'count' a mountain if they slid down all/part of it. Personally, I'd count it, but won't if I used a bike. Some of us make it a competition, some of us don't.

Damn, does this mean i can't count S. Hancock as a winter descent? causde i made it down in NO time on a powder day, hehe...

Ultimately, Kevin is right - it is on the honor system. My feeling about sleds is that there is a big difference between deliberately planning to slide down some portion of the mountain and deciding once you get there that it would be safer to sit down. Has anyone done the 48 in winter without *ever* sitting down (intentionally or otherwise)?
I once went down the Flume Slide Trail (yes, in winter - it wasn't my idea ). Arguably I was on my butt the whole time but the snowshoes were dug in to make sure I didn't go flying down too fast and wrap myself around a tree or rock so maybe I was on my feet, too (and they were each time I had to climb over the snowplowed pile that finally brought me to a stop). There certainly are parts where you can be on both and still be pretty vertical

Double Bow said:

Actually, sleds are NOT considered acceptable for winter decents for the same reason bikes are not considered acceptable. The rules of the FTFC require that the climb and descent be done "on foot". They allow skis and snowshoes because you are still "on foot", not sitting.

Click to expand...

I can stand on my MTB...

Jay

Kevin Rooney said:

But then - it's all on the honor system anyway, so for those who feel that glisssading is 'cheating' they probably won't 'count' a mountain if they slid down all/part of it. Personally, I'd count it, but won't if I used a bike. Some of us make it a competition, some of us don't.

Click to expand...

I'd agree with this....MOST importantly, which ever way you do it have a good time!

To advance the picking of nits, what if you slide down on your gear sled but drag your feet the whole way? I like the idea that unplanned is OK--has a certain justice to it. Besides, it's a creative way "around" the rule!

Thanks, everyone, I think I get it.

Gris, do you use backcountry skis or regular alpine? I can't hike in my ski boots or ski in my winter plastics, so I'll be carrying a pretty heavy load. Oh well, as long as I don't try to keep up with anyone!

Gris, do you use backcountry skis or regular alpine?

Click to expand...

Whatever i can beg, borrow or steal!

Currently playing: "Willing" - ("I've even driven the back roads so I would'nt get weighed...")

Gris said:

Currently playing: "Willing" - ("I've even driven the back roads so I would'nt get weighed...")

Click to expand...

Ah, one of my favorites!

As for some specific gear questions, there was a recent thread (and many not so recent) that will give some good gear details.

I use Scarpa T3s with a tele skis, skins and Black Diamond Cable bindings. My crampons fit over my boots, and they are OK for walking. Better to actually ski as much as you can, and if it gets too narrow or steep switch to crampons. Straight walking it kind of tough in any ski boot. Bearable, but tough.