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Thread: List rules?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mad Townie's Avatar
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    Question List rules?

    OK, all you serious listers out there, a question: may a person fairly claim a 4K if he has hiked to the top and skied back down to the bottom?

    I was thinking that would be a fun way to finish on Tecumseh one of these years.
    Mad Townie

    Take long walks in stormy weather or through deep snows in the fields and woods, if you would keep your spirits up. Deal with brute nature. Be cold and hungry and weary. - H. D. Thoreau

    Easy trails, nice days and comfort are good, too. - M. Townie

  2. #2
    Member SLB's Avatar
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    It counts if you ski down in summer. Winter rules might be different ?

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mark Schaefer's Avatar
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    This may vary from club to club, but most clubs allow skiing both up and down. Although this is normally done on XC skis, I do not see anything that would preclude downhill skis. You probably need to finish (either on ski or foot) at a trailhead. From Four Thousand Footer Club FAQ.
    The basic rule is very simple: You must climb (on foot!) to and from the summit of each peak on the list. In winter skis and snowshoes are both allowed.

    For peaks with trails starting at maintained roads the rule is simple: Drive to the trailhead then walk ...

    You are allowed to count any number of peaks on a single trip and do not necessarily have to end up at the trailhead from which you started (many peaks are commonly done as a traverse, e.g. Bonds, Presidentials).

    I don't know if the slippery slope argument extends to toboggans and sleds.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Townie
    OK, all you serious listers out there, a question: may a person fairly claim a 4K if he has hiked to the top and skied back down to the bottom?
    Yes, for the WMNF 4Ks. (Don't know about other areas.) I suspect that you have to carry your own skis up to really be ethical/legal... (Presumably also applies to sleds and toboggans.)

    I have only summited Owl's Head on skis (both up and down), and I'm claiming it.

    Doug

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    Senior Member SherpaKroto's Avatar
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    The way I understand the rules are that if you either use the skis to climb, or carry them on the climb, you are allowed to use them to ski down, and claim the summit for your list. The same does NOT hold true for bicycles. Even if one were to carry the bike to a summit, riding it back down would not constitute a successful ascent and descent of said peak. Seems a bit contradictory (though carrying a bike would seem a bit foolish ), but that is my understanding of the rules. You can find more info on the Four Thousand Footer Club Faq's HERE

  6. #6
    Senior Member Quietman's Avatar
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    This was recently discussed here
    Sking - mtn biking 4k rules

    I did Tecumseh last October 30th just after the snow storm(the biggest of the winter!) and skied down. The skis kept hitting overhanging trees and dumped snow down my back on the way up, but the ride down was deffinitely worth it.

    Trip report and pics are here
    Last edited by Quietman; 09-16-2006 at 02:27 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Mad Townie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Schaefer
    I don't know if the slippery slope argument extends to toboggans and sleds.
    It has to. Otherwise anyone who has ridden a fully loaded sled part way down the Chimney Pond Trail wouldn't be able to claim a winter ascent of Baxter or Hamlin Peaks.

    Or maybe it's considered OK if you're risking your life on the way down? Sherp, would that clear you for Killington?

    Thanks, everyone. I had read the FTFC FAQ, but I thought there might be a rule against it somewhere. Of course carrying the skis (and the boots--my plastics don't fit my alpine bindings) would be a necessary part of the deal.

    Wow, we could get even more esoteric and question whether a person who uses the huts can properly claim the peaks on that trip. After all, someone else carried the food, the shelter and at least some of the water!

    Seems to me that Tecumseh in winter would be an ideal way to finish the 48/67.
    Mad Townie

    Take long walks in stormy weather or through deep snows in the fields and woods, if you would keep your spirits up. Deal with brute nature. Be cold and hungry and weary. - H. D. Thoreau

    Easy trails, nice days and comfort are good, too. - M. Townie

  8. #8
    Senior Member Gris's Avatar
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    Seems to me that Tecumseh in winter would be an ideal way to finish the 48/67.
    NAW, telemarking down one of the more diffiuclt trails on Cannon would be tho...

    ps - i'm all over/up fopr skiing as many as poss in winter - a multi-year project for me tho...
    Buy my new book 'Zen and the Art of Pessimisim,' or not. I guess it doesn't really matter if you read it.

  9. #9
    Banned Kevin Rooney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Townie
    OK, all you serious listers out there, a question: may a person fairly claim a 4K if he has hiked to the top and skied back down to the bottom?

    I was thinking that would be a fun way to finish on Tecumseh one of these years.
    Yes - skis, snowshoes, sleds - all are OK in terms of the rules. What isn't OK via the 'rules' are things with wheels and or/or motorized - bicyles, tricycles, ATVs, snowmobiles - for any part of the journey. In addition to Tecumseh, Cannon, Moosilauke, Wildcat, Hale, or Garfield are often skied - if you're REALLY good, most of them can be skied.

    What is a bit of a grey area is the location of the trailhead. This isn't much of an issue in summer, but is in winter. For example - sometimes the road into Zealand will be open, or at least partway (to a town's water supply). Leaving from US302 is a much longer hike than several miles in. Another issue re: trailhead is the time limit constraint: for example - is it acceptable to be at the summer TH for Zealand when 'official' winter begins, or do you have to begin at US302?

    These issues are similar for other TH's as well which are located in USFS roads, which are usually closed long before official winter, but occasionally are opened due to special projects, like logging, rebuilding of an AMC hut, etc.
    Last edited by Kevin Rooney; 09-17-2006 at 11:10 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Double Bow's Avatar
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    Actually, sleds are NOT considered acceptable for winter decents for the same reason bikes are not considered acceptable. The rules of the FTFC require that the climb and descent be done "on foot". They allow skis and snowshoes because you are still "on foot", not sitting.
    "I like to collect experiences the way other people like to collect coins and stamps." Michael McGuire

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  11. #11
    Senior Member Pamola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Bow
    Actually, sleds are NOT considered acceptable for winter decents for the same reason bikes are not considered acceptable. The rules of the FTFC require that the climb and descent be done "on foot". They allow skis and snowshoes because you are still "on foot", not sitting.

    What if one uses their own backside as a sled? I did Sugarloaf one winter and my hiking partner and I made it down to the bottom in 25 minutes by sliding down on our butts. I still remember the looks on skiers' faces as they passed us slowly as we slid beside them. We just dug in our heels at the top of a headwall and popped up, standing with the skiers, said hi, then threw ourselves down the hill once again. Maybe a tad dangerous, list illegal, and snowpant-detrimental, but it was a heckuva lot of fun!
    Last edited by Pamola; 09-18-2006 at 01:02 PM.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member el-bagr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gris
    ps - i'm all over/up fopr skiing as many as poss in winter - a multi-year project for me tho...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Rooney
    In addition to Tecumseh, Cannon, Moosilauke, Wildcat, Hale, or Garfield are often skied - if you're REALLY good, most of them can be skied.
    They're all possible! Many were better than expected...

    Of course, I'm not a lister. Questions like "which trailhead" and "starting no earlier than the stroke of midnight" don't get me going. All that matters is the snowpack!

  13. #13
    Banned Kevin Rooney's Avatar
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    You're probably right, Double-Bow, about the sleds. But, as Pamola points out - depending on the snowpack, glissading is often done. Would be hard to see a distinction between having a pair of Goretex pants between your butt and the snow and having a pair of Goretex pants plus a bit of nylon. But then - it's all on the honor system anyway, so for those who feel that glisssading is 'cheating' they probably won't 'count' a mountain if they slid down all/part of it. Personally, I'd count it, but won't if I used a bike. Some of us make it a competition, some of us don't.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Gris's Avatar
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    Damn, does this mean i can't count S. Hancock as a winter descent? causde i made it down in NO time on a powder day, hehe...
    Buy my new book 'Zen and the Art of Pessimisim,' or not. I guess it doesn't really matter if you read it.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Eric Savage's Avatar
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    Ultimately, Kevin is right - it is on the honor system. My feeling about sleds is that there is a big difference between deliberately planning to slide down some portion of the mountain and deciding once you get there that it would be safer to sit down. Has anyone done the 48 in winter without *ever* sitting down (intentionally or otherwise)?
    I once went down the Flume Slide Trail (yes, in winter - it wasn't my idea ). Arguably I was on my butt the whole time but the snowshoes were dug in to make sure I didn't go flying down too fast and wrap myself around a tree or rock so maybe I was on my feet, too (and they were each time I had to climb over the snowplowed pile that finally brought me to a stop). There certainly are parts where you can be on both and still be pretty vertical
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