World's Worst Weather? Really?

Okay how about this take . Maybe not the world's worst weather but the most dangerous .

My reason for that being the amount of people that are on the hill on any given day . Sure K2 , Everest or any other peak for that matter can have worse weather but think about how many people are actually on those mountains when it gets bad .A 8000m peak could be having the worst storm of all time but if it's not climbing season and no parties are making an attempt then there is no danger of fatality . Just look at the year round numbers of Mt Washington visitors , statistically someone is going to do something foolish and get dead ! Not to long ago a hiker died of hypothermia when he got lost overnight ( in NJ no less ! ). It never went below 55 degrees , and he was never more than two miles from a road .

My point is this : I have yet to see a bumper sticker that says " this car climbed K2 " . Washington's ease of access is what makes it dangerous .

How about a " this DRIVER climbed Mt Washington " sticker ???

This reminds me of my days in the ski industry when Sunday River claimed that their trail White Heat was the steepest longest widest lift-served trail in the East. (Note the lack of commas.) It wasn't all of those things individually, but as a combo it was tough to dispute. Basically, it's a marketing gimmick designed to create an easy and exciting way to talk about the trail. Don't forget marketing is all about the superlatives. And, if you're the first to claim something, than it's true until someone proves you otherwise.

The "world's worst weather" is no different. Make the claim. Use it as a way to talk about/market the mountain. You own it. I don't hear the Antarctica Tourism Board claiming the world's worst weather. Those of us here on this board are "educated" enough to know that this claim may not be entirely true for a variety of reasons. But for those folks that drive the Auto Road to the top, they're pretty impressed to say they stood in the place that has the world's worst weather. In fact, I'm pretty impressed I can say I've hiked there. Sure makes the trip report sound cooler. And, it's a lot easier to say than "home of the some of the world's most rapidly changing and unpredictable, sometimes even worst weather, with freezing fog and the strongest wind ever recorded even if it was a really long time ago and other places may have colder temps from time to time."

Parallel (and slightly more cantankerous) thread over on Summit Post:

http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22474&sid=e21388b13a0761082fa2ec8c301c50b5

Sorry about that grouseking ... I missed where you'd already posted the link.

Chip said:

...What happened to dvbl ?
You shouldn't drop a stink-bomb like this and just leave the building...

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Nartreb is doing just fine without my help. We he gets tired of being correct, I'll step in again. But at this point, I'd just be repeating what he's saying, and probably not as well.

I personally think mount jefferson has worse weather than mount washington

What really is bothersome about this post and the folks who are rallying against the slogan, is that statements are being made which presume the slogan be a marketing tool for the Auto road and profitable tourism.

The MW Weather Observatory is soley claiming this title for ....weather people, and perhaps a draw to encourage folks to contribute to the private funded, non-profit operation for strictly scientific research.
MW Observatory has been around for 74 years, collecting weather data uninterupted and relies on contributions to continue research. They have quite a following as well.

I had been a contributing member for a few years and got thier periodical "Windswept" which was full of great info. I have participated in their private observatory tours where I was shown all the instrumentation and methods for collecting data. I was thrilled to be there as I am a true weather junkie.

Read it all here:
Contribute

Quote: "If you know Mount Washington, you know the story. Harsh wind, bitter cold, freezing fog, heavy snow – all these elements combine to give the summit of Mount Washington the reputation of being home to the "world's worst weather". Our 74-year presence in those conditions, observing the weather, conducting research and using this unique site for education, is one-of-a-kind. Our unbroken climate record spanning seven decades is becoming more and more important in the climate change discussion."

Here they define "worlds worst weather"
Take it for what its worth and leave the rest.

Worst Weather? What the hell? What about places like Houston? I can't take the heat and humidity. When I moved from Boston to Easthampton, MA it hit 100 for like, 3 days in a row and it was terribly humid. That was awful! Give me the cold any day.

-Dr. Wu

Are you people serious?

Each day, I check "New Posts" and each day I'm amazed at how many respondants there are to this thread.

Have you nothing better to complain about? Go hiking, cure cancer, or make your boss some more money...

Do you really all care if George gets a little undue credit?

spencer

spencer said:

Are you people serious?

Each day, I check "New Posts" and each day I'm amazed at how many respondants there are to this thread.

Have you nothing better to complain about? Go hiking, cure cancer, or make your boss some more money...

Do you really all care if George gets a little undue credit?

spencer

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Very serious! I am a virtual shut in, and live vicariously through Pete Hickey. Besides, I am self employed.

spencer said:

Are you people serious?

Each day, I check "New Posts" and each day I'm amazed at how many respondants there are to this thread.

Have you nothing better to complain about? Go hiking, cure cancer, or make your boss some more money...

Do you really all care if George gets a little undue credit?

spencer

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Don't like the song? Change the station.

After all of this, I'm surprised MWN hasn't hired me yet. (But i will continue to dream.)

spencer said:

Are you people serious?

Each day, I check "New Posts" and each day I'm amazed at how many respondants there are to this thread.

Have you nothing better to complain about? Go hiking, cure cancer, or make your boss some more money...

Do you really all care if George gets a little undue credit?

spencer

Click to expand...

You underestimate the seriousness that I take. This isn't even the half of it. I am a weather nut, have been since I has seven years old, and it grows deeper and deeper every day. So yes, this is serious stuff.


I think this may be my last post on this.....as I do have to make my boss some money during my 8 hour shift, but I don't know how to cure cancer, so I may be back. Anyways here is the link I've been withholdingWORLD RECORD wind . Good stuff in here. Here's a particularly nice quote.

"First and foremost, the World Record Wind is a testimony of the real extremes that can rule on Mount Washington. Significant cold, abundant snowfall, dense fog, heavy icing, and exceptional winds are a prominent feature of Mount Washington's environment. Yes, there are colder places, such as Antarctica, and snowier places, such as some peaks in the Cascade Range. However, Mount Washington, a small peak by global standards, really does have weather that can rival some of the most rugged places on earth. There are days each winter when the combination of life-threatening weather factors on Mount Washington is remarkably similar to weather extremes which have been recorded in the polar regions and on peaks three or four times Mount Washington's height. The World Record Wind is one benchmark testifying to the mountain's truly severe weather."

It pretty much sums up how I feel.

Props to Jeff B for summing up how I feel as well. His quote tells the story.

grouseking

food for thought: our NE mountains, many of us head out their in winter to get a bit of a challenge, etc.. check out the beuty that winter has to offer.

Out west and in other ranges of the world, winter isn't even considered by most people to climb them. I would guess (and this is not a slag on anyone who has done the winter 48/46, etc.. - b./c that is a heck of an accomplishment). But - lets be honest here, its a heck of alot tougher to do the CO 14'ers in winter, the cascades in winter, etc.. Not saying we don't have real mountains here in the east, but... is it safe to say, winter on rainier, hood, baker, maroons, are probably a little more intense than the pressies????? Not even going to mention the himalaya b/c that would be insulting to those peaks - thats a no briainer. The pressie range is routinely traversed in day all year round.

I have nothing to back that up with but gut feeling but can we assume, denali in january, would have a bit worse weather than washington in jan? Denali in the summer is like washington in the winter. For the most part summer on washington is not bad at all. Yea - it can have some bad weather, but, I would says washington is climbable to due weather most days. I don't think you an say that for denali, rainier, logan, foraker, CO 14'ers, etc..

we got some bad weather for sure - but no sense in defending the slogan - who cares anyway - it makes good tv and books - nice marketing slogan.

and on a bad day - any of these exposed peaks will kick your butt - here or there.

spencer said:

Have you nothing better to complain about? Go hiking, cure cancer, or make your boss some more money...

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I've just figured that its been a slow week...

Doug

Thought I'd re-post this (slightly abridged) for those of you not following the similar thread on SP:

Scott Patterson said:

The largest spread for a single location [in the US, recorded] is at Medicine Lake Montana. The record high is 117 and the record low -58, a spread of 175 degrees. See below:

http://www.weather.com/outlook/recreation/outdoors/wxclimatology/monthly/USMT0224

There are many, many places (probably over 100, I haven't counted) in the West and Northern Plains that have had temperature spreads of more than 150 degrees. There are none at all on the East Coast.

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There's also a nifty map in the SP thread that breaks down temperature variability by state. (You can, if you like, easily combine the smaller Eastern states together - makes no difference.)

PS I've tried several dictionaries and encyclopedias, none agree on a definition of "weather" or "climate" beyond stating that it may include factors "such as temperature, moisture, wind, ..." - not really useful when you want to compare two places on a single axis. (Are cold temperatures worse than hot? Is high wind worse than variable wind?). If nobody wants to come forward with a quantifiable index I'll have to invent my own. I don't want to be accused of rigging the test, so I'd really rather use somebody else's measure.

nartreb said:

If nobody wants to come forward with a quantifiable index I'll have to invent my own. I don't want to be accused of rigging the test, so I'd really rather use somebody else's measure.

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Sure, how about all these conditons and averages:
MW Normals, Means & Extremes

Lets see...
Mount Washington summit is capable of producing:
-47 F
+72 F
231 mph winds
566" snow, ice, hail
130" rain

.....and is only clear less than 100 days a year.

Q:
Does the extreme temp differance of another location make up for the fact it never rains there?
Does the extreme snowfall of another make up for the lack of winds?

Mt Washington weather observers can hold a candle to the claim they make when you consider ALL possibilities of weather combined.
How many other places in the world can really produce the wide range of conditions as reported on Mt Washington?

Of all the possible weather phenomenon experienced in the world, Mt Washington can produce EVERYTHING shy of icebergs and tsunamis!

OK here is "my" scientific measure.
Take the index for "means" and apply it to other locations for camparison.
5 simple catagories rate at 20% value each
Mean:
low temp
high temp
rain
frozen precip (snow/sleet/ice)
winds

Compare that to other locations which can produce ALL of the conditions possible. If a location can't produce "rain" for example, then knock 20% off "the score".
...is this rigged fairly for comparison?


YOU BET ITS RIGGED!

Jeff B said:

Take the index for "means" and apply it to other locations for camparison. 5 simple catagories rate at 20% value each
Mean:
low temp
high temp
rain
frozen precip (snow/sleet/ice)
winds

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Finally we're getting somewhere. Shall we say temperatures in degrees centigrade? Now we want lower low temps to count for more, so I think you mean something like (room temperature minus low temp) for that value, and we can use (high temp minus room temperature) for high temp just to keep the two on the same scale.
Rain - cm. That's measurable. (A little unfair to really cold places, but hey, it's your formula.)
frozen precip - I think it would make more sense to measure all precip in cm rain equivalent (temperature is already in the formula), but again, it's your formula. cm here too.
winds - km/h.
"20% value each" doesn't mean anything unless you can normalize the different categories to the same scale, which we can't. So I propose just to add the five categories together. Notice this means that choice of units matters. Using inches for rain and mph for wind, instead of cm and km/h, effectively changes the relative weighting of rain vs wind by roughly a factor of two.

Well, we still need to specify for each category X, whether we mean extreme X ever measured, typical extreme X in an average year, typical extreme X in an average day, or simply average X. (And I think you've left out most forms of short-term and seasonal variability, which is what most people here seem to think makes Mt W the "worst", but again, it's your formula.) But we're getting there.

You'll know you have a quantifiable measure when you can produce a single number that represents Mt Washington's weather, and explain how you arrived at it. Then we'll have a basis for comparison to other places.

nartreb said:

Finally we're getting somewhere.

You'll know you have a quantifiable measure when you can produce a single number that represents Mt Washington's weather, and explain how you arrived at it. Then we'll have a basis for comparison to other places.

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Agreed.
However the single "number" as converted by your method would be difficult to combine the 5 categories of differing units of measure.
I was thinking of simply rating each location in study by assending order of record.
Each catagory would count for 20% of value in a single assending number.

Perhaps the "mean" data would not produce the extreme weather numbers we are looking for, rather suggest to use the actual "record" values. (sorry I changed that, but I can because its my study... )

Rank each candidate location in assending order in each catagory for record of:
High Temp
Low Temp
Annual Liquid precip
Seasonal Frozen precip
Maximum Wind

Then add the 5 catagory numerical assending orders together, Lowest score wins.

Fair enough?

Here is the official Mt Washinton records to compare:
From archive MW DATA

High temp: 72 F (Aug '75)
Low temp: -47 F (Jan '34)
Annual Liquid precip: 130.14" ('69)
Seasonal Frozen precip: 566.4" ('68-'69)
Max Wind: 231 mph (April '34)

OK, this should be interesting.
All you need is reliable data from other locations to produce the results.

giggy said:

food for thought: our NE mountains, many of us head out their in winter to get a bit of a challenge, etc.. check out the beuty that winter has to offer.

Out west and in other ranges of the world, winter isn't even considered by most people to climb them. I would guess (and this is not a slag on anyone who has done the winter 48/46, etc.. - b./c that is a heck of an accomplishment). But - lets be honest here, its a heck of alot tougher to do the CO 14'ers in winter, the cascades in winter, etc.. Not saying we don't have real mountains here in the east, but... is it safe to say, winter on rainier, hood, baker, maroons, are probably a little more intense than the pressies????? Not even going to mention the himalaya b/c that would be insulting to those peaks - thats a no briainer. The pressie range is routinely traversed in day all year round.

I have nothing to back that up with but gut feeling but can we assume, denali in january, would have a bit worse weather than washington in jan? Denali in the summer is like washington in the winter. For the most part summer on washington is not bad at all. Yea - it can have some bad weather, but, I would says washington is climbable to due weather most days. I don't think you an say that for denali, rainier, logan, foraker, CO 14'ers, etc..

we got some bad weather for sure - but no sense in defending the slogan - who cares anyway - it makes good tv and books - nice marketing slogan.

and on a bad day - any of these exposed peaks will kick your butt - here or there.

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Interesting point. But the reasons for not summitting many CO 14ers in the wintertime (I lived there for 4 years) has more to do with the terrain and avalanche danger than the weather. In many respects, I found mountain weather in CO to be much easier to deal with than New England.

nartreb said:

You'll know you have a quantifiable measure when you can produce a single number that represents Mt Washington's weather, and explain how you arrived at it. Then we'll have a basis for comparison to other places.

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Wait a minute. Someone is going to have to place a weighting system on each of the parameters to be measured. Evaluator X is going to feel that average wind speed is more important than peak wind speed and Evaluator Y is going to feel the opposite. Personally, I think snow is not as bad as sleet or rain, but I've never been in an avalanche

Who has "The best" hamburgers? Is it the guys with special sauce or the ones that flame broil? For sure you could generate an equation to evaluate "the best" hamburger and use it to compare other hamburgers, but the only person it would have meaning to is the one who placed the weighting factors on each of the variables selected or ignored.

nartreb said:

Now we want lower low temps to count for more...

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Who's "we"? Me want less. How about temperture change during a short time period? IMHO change in temperature during a single hike is more difficult to provision for than temperature extremes during a year.

The worst weather to a corn farmer is definately different from the worst weather for a rice farmer, or a group of neophytes heading to a closed hut. I stand by my original statement: "We are outdoors geeks of course we are going to feel smug..." ("We" in the imperial sense.)

Jeff-B said:

Of all the possible weather phenomenon experienced in the world, Mt Washington can produce EVERYTHING shy of icebergs and tsunamis!

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what about extreme heat, duststorms, drought, tornadoes?

Judging what's the worst weather is a lot like judging Olympic figure skating. Speed-skating is easy to figure out. Fastest time wins. So I don't think it's fair question to begin with. If they claimed the highest wind speed (which they do), or coldest temperature or most snowfall, these are all easy to test and reasonable people can agree on them. But as for the worst, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.