Formal Hiking Clubs vs Hiking Boards

Various discussions I've had lately have made me wonder if there has been a shift in the way people hike as groups.

Before the Internet, beginning hikers could not communicate with a large number of other hikers and therefore would have to join a formal hiking club, (such as the AMC, but this is not about the AMC, so please keep this general), in order to go hiking with a group of people. Eventually, you could form a network of hiking associates / friends and start hiking apart from the club. But you probably still stayed in the club.

Now with the Internet, we have VFTT, RocksOnTop, ADKForum, ADKHP, etc. We can post a hike or read about hikes and join a group this way.

There are several pros and cons that came out of my discussions and thoughts:

- An 'internet hike' may not have a true 'leader', whereas formal club hikes usually do. I 'organized' a hike to the Santononi's last Winter that was essentially leaderless. This may have been part of the reason no one summited! In Winter, the concept of a leader is especially important.

- The person may save money by not joining a formal club, but in turn, the club may not have the resources it used to have to represent the hiking community to government agencies, or other policy makers.

- Clubs can only lead so many hikes a year.

- Larger hikes tend to go the speed of the slowest hiker and can lead to frustration on the part of faster hikers, or the whole group failing to summit.

- However, generally, there is safety in numbers, and experienced hike leaders can help the group get to the summit in the most efficient manner.

- And ratings hikes (a club feature), can help hikers decide if they are right for a particular hike, even if they "need the peak".

- Internet hikes can be more dynamically arranged, and take factors such as weather into account better than a formal hiking club can. Typically, when a formal hike is canceled, it is not made up. But an informal hiking group can just decide to go next weekend.

- However, having a schedule of several month's hikes in advance can lead to better individual planning of one's own life. If a hike is canceled, "The mountain will always be there".

OK, you get the idea. I realize I am preaching to one particular choir here, but how do you feel about formal hiking clubs, vs 'internet hiking'? And I'm not saying it has to be one or the other, you can of course do both (as I do).

I guess between the two, I prefer internet hikes (although my main preference is hiking with my friends I've know most of my life). Considering I’ve been on quite a few of those and have never been on any club sponsored hikes. When you hike with people from a forum, you can get a feel as to what they are like from what they post, something you don’t get from a “sponsored” hike. Another thing that turns me of to “sponsored” hike is they tend to have (or at lest look like they do) larger groups of people. I feel most comfortable when hiking in a small group (4 people or less).

O' Solo Mi O

My preferred group size is uno See more of everything that way.

I mainly hike with my husband or a few other friends, but have gone on some hikes with fellow VFTT (which I really enjoyed). I've never hiked with an organized club. Steve and I both belonged to the AMC for awhile (mainly because he was rock climbing with them) and every time I got a calendar I would look over it and some of the hikes looked good, but never actually joined in on one.

The one nice thing about joining on a hike planned on a board/internet is that you can get a feel for the people and interact with them before going on the hike. This helps in gauging how you'll fit in on the hike as far as goals, hiking pace, etc. The ratings on formal hikes from clubs can also help do that, but I still feel like you are going in blind in a way. If I had problems finding hiking partners then I would certainly go on more hikes, both internet and club.

lumberzac said:

When you hike with people from a forum, you can get a feel as to what they are like from what they post, something you don’t get from a “sponsored” hike.

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This is true if you are dealing with someone who posts a lot. But there are also plenty of people who are new, or who lurk, or could just show up at the trailhead.

This is true if you are dealing with someone who posts a lot. But there are also plenty of people who are new, or who lurk, or could just show up at the trailhead.

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At least with arranging on the internet you have the option to talk to other members before the hike. I read more than I post on this site, but on the hikes I've gone on with other VFTTers, I still sent emails/pm's back and forth prior to the hike.

Do people ever just show up at the trailhead without telling anybody they were coming?

I actually prefer both types, there is a time and place for both..

I started out solo hiking, then went to the AMC BB, where I met Cantdog online and set up a hike. We both needed Owls Head so we did that together. During the hike she informed me about VFTT,
Y-alpine Club and others.

I lurked on VFTT and joined the following Spring. I also joined the 2003 AMC winter hiking class lead by Kevin Rooney, which was very informative, and also a way to get in more hikes.

The following week after Cantdogs hike I went on an AMC Bonds traverse with a group lead by Ed Hawkins, which was a great hike too. I gravitated the following year towards solo hikes, a couple of AMC hikes, and VFTT hikes once I joined up. I then set up and lead a hike up Isolation in September 2004.

Just about all hikes I have been on in the past 2 years are organized through online conversation, generally through VFTT.

I find it actually seems to become more difficult to find interested hikers once you "leave the Whites" and start the NE 67 or NE 100 list in Vermont and Maine. It doesn't appear that too many are working on those peaks- and on your timeline, or willing to adjust the timeline. .

These days I tend towards small groups or more recently individual hiking partners. Its more flexible and easier for both personality wise. You know each others skills, speed, shortfalls, strengths, and reliability in an emergency should there be one. So in that situation, its very small groups, almost always groups of less than 4-5 hikers. Which I actually much prefer.

However, I still check the AMC magazine for any interesting hikes, especially when the cold weather approaches. But I still prefer Internet hikes off the VFTT or ROT boards with people I know or know by reputation.

A lot depends on the nature of the club. My college outing club had many of the advantages of a club (experienced leaders, taught a winter school, coverage of a wide range of activities, etc) but not some of the limitations that you mention (plus some of my general comments):

Tom Rankin said:

- An 'internet hike' may not have a true 'leader', whereas formal club hikes usually do. I 'organized' a hike to the Santononi's last Winter that was essentially leaderless. This may have been part of the reason no one summitted! In Winter, the concept of a leader is especially important.

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I have also noted the leaderless nature of internet hikes--and some cases where there was a potentially serious problem which likely would have been averted if there was a competent leader.

- Clubs can only lead so many hikes a year.

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Our club usually had several trips per weekend. And, of course, people were also free to run private trips. If you wanted to go out, you could almost always find someone to go with.

- Larger hikes tend to go the speed of the slowest hiker and can lead to frustration on the part of faster hikers, or the whole group failing to summit.

- However, generally, there is safety in numbers, and experienced hike leaders can help the group get to the summit in the most efficient manner.

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Far more important is getting the people back to the trailhead safely. And the antithesis of safety in numbers is that the more people, the more likely that someone will have a problem. The optimum number depends on the trip and the people--it can be just a soloist, a small group, or a large group.

- Internet hikes can be more dynamically arranged, and take factors such as weather into account better than a formal hiking club can. Typically, when a formal hike is cancelled, it is not made up. But an informal hiking group can just decide to go next weekend.

- However, having a schedule of several month's hikes in advance can lead to better individual planning of one's own life. If a hike is cancelled, "The mountain will always be there".

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Our club was very flexible: the signup sheets went up at the Monday (or Thursday) meeting, were finalized on Thursday, and the trip went out on the weekend. Only a few trips were planned with a longer lead time.

The AMC-like formal group is only one model. There are other models of formal group.

There have been some previous threads covering related ground:
Abandoned Hikers, a new trend?
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11785
Hiking with a partner
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5360

Doug

pudgy_groundhog said:

At least with arranging on the internet you have the option to talk to other members before the hike. I read more than I post on this site, but on the hikes I've gone on with other VFTTers, I still sent emails/pm's back and forth prior to the hike.

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I agree this is a good thing. Knowing the leader is good, but knowing everyone is even better!

pudgy_groundhog said:

Do people ever just show up at the trailhead without telling anybody they were coming?

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On the Santanoni trip, a lot of people showed up at the trailhead at the appointed hour. I did not know all of them were coming. But I don't really know if they just showed up, or not. They may have had independent plans, or they may have been lurkers. Certainly nothing stops you or I from just showing up for any hike, whether AMC led or informally arranged.

Tom Rankin said:

Certainly nothing stops you or I from just showing up for any hike, whether AMC led or informally arranged.

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Not so. The leader of a formal hike can accept you as a member or not. He can't keep you off the trail, but then you are hiking it independently of the formal group.

Doug

DougPaul said:

Not so. The leader of a formal hike can accept you as a member or not. He can't keep you off the trail, but then you are hiking it independently of the formal group.

Doug

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AMC is very tight on that now, you have to sign the waiver form amd all. They'll interview you over the phone or via e-mail too. They definitely will not take you along for the hike, just for liability reasons alone.

Tom Rankin said:

On the Santanoni trip, a lot of people showed up at the trailhead at the appointed hour. I did not know all of them were coming. But I don't really know if they just showed up, or not. They may have had independent plans, or they may have been lurkers. Certainly nothing stops you or I from just showing up for any hike, whether AMC led or informally arranged.

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Interesting. It wouldn't occur to me to just show up without talking to anybody beforehand. Sometimes I organize hikes with an informal group I belong to and I always ask that people respond, just so we make sure we have everybody when we start on the hike (e.g. once we were waiting for somebody and when I called her it turned out she was at the wrong trailhead. if I didn't know she was coming, she never would've made the hike).

DougPaul said:

Not so. The leader of a formal hike can accept you as a member or not. He can't keep you off the trail, but then you are hiking it independently of the formal group.

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That's what I mean. He can tag along right behind you if he really wants to.

amstony said:

AMC is very tight on that now, you have to sign the waiver form amd all. They'll interview you over the phone or via e-mail too. They definitely will not take you along for the hike, just for liability reasons alone.

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Like I said to Doug, they can not bar you from following them up the mountain. Not that I have ever seen this happen. And of course, if you do this, you are on your own. But if you happen to truly show up at a trailhead at the same time a club hike does (and I've had that happen, on both sides of the coin), you might end up in front of, or behind, the group at various times.

DougPaul said:

Not so. The leader of a formal hike can accept you as a member or not. He can't keep you off the trail, but then you are hiking it independently of the formal group.

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Tom Rankin said:

That's what I mean. He can tag along right behind you if he really wants to.

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In theory it is possible, but I've never seen it happen. I suppose two of the more likely scenarios are 1) a trip member brings along a friend without checking it out with the leader beforehand or 2) there might be some individuals who specialize in tagging along without joining.

In either case, the leader can explicitly inform the indvidual that he is not part of the group in front of witnesses. In case 1) the member has a choice of staying with the group and abandoning the friend or leaving the group and staying with his friend.

Doug

When I first started hiking, it was with friends and/or my boyfriend at the time. The relationship disintegrated _ _ and my friends were never really into hiking. So for a long time, I'd head out solo.

But that makes friends and family really skittish if you're a girl alone in the woods. So...if memory serves me well, I first tapped into the AMC BBS. I think that's how I first got wind of VFTT.

Although I've been a member from time to time of the AMC, I've never been on an AMC hike. The few times I've thought about it, I either got turned off by the trip leader's haughty demeanor (definitely this could be a wrong perception on my part, but it's just the perception I've been left with on those rare occasions I've contacted a trip leader) or something else interfered.

I've always enjoyed meeting up with VFTT folks. I think we all do definitely learn a lot about people's personalities and hiking styles by reading their posts, looking at links to pictures and occasionally PMing/e-mailing back and forth. This place, along with RocksOnTop, has provided a real sense of community that has enriched the hiking experience.

I prefer the more informal aspects of VFTT/ROT than the formal approach by a group or organization like AMC.

alpinista said:

Although I've been a member from time to time of the AMC, I've never been on an AMC hike. The few times I've thought about it, I either got turned off by the trip leader's haughty demeanor (definitely this could be a wrong perception on my part, but it's just the perception I've been left with on those rare occasions I've contacted a trip leader) or something else interfered.

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As a hike leader, when people call me, I have to be a little careful about who I let go on certain hikes. Sometimes I might ask a question that would sound dumb if I asked someone from this board, "Do you have hiking boots?" You'd be surprised how often the answer is no!

I hope that doesn't make me sound haughty. I try to encourage people to get the right gear, and explain why they might need it on this particular hike.

Tom Rankin said:

As a hike leader, when people call me, I have to be a little careful about who I let go on certain hikes. Sometimes I might ask a question that would sound dumb if I asked someone from this board, "Do you have hiking boots?" You'd be surprised how often the answer is no!

I hope that doesn't make me sound haughty. I try to encourage people to get the right gear, and explain why they might need it on this particular hike.

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I too used to be a leader for an organization.

Part of a leader's job is making sure that people have the appropriate equipment and skills for a trip. And any organization that wants new members needs to have some trips aimed at beginners.

There are a number of trip reports here of beginners making beginner's mistakes. Presumably there would have been fewer of those mistakes if the trips had had competent leaders.

It can be difficult for competent outsiders to join an organization--they may have to jump through a bunch of annoying hoops to be "allowed" to do what they have already been doing...

Doug

On volunteer leaders

In any organization or club, somewhere around 10% of the membership does 90% of the work. It's often thankless, and done out of a love of the activity.

I've never lead a club-related hike. However, I have been president of a cycling club (I started as the sponsorship chair and was so successful in securing club sponsorship, I was "rewarded" by being elected president ). I have lead many, many training rides, of varying ability. I have promoted several races. I have been a race official. Often the only real requirement is a willingness to embrace the responsibility. Often the most enthusiastic are the newbies, who are also often not experienced enough. It behooves an organization to harness the energy of these folks for the good of the organization, by offering leadership training (say), or by making them an assistant leader (sweeper, etc.)

The club I belong to considers itself a "developmental club" and as such devotes much of its activities towards developing new racers, including offering many weekly rides, a spring learn-to-race clinic, and support at races from the more experienced riders. I can only extrapolate on this experience to the AMC (or other club) organized hike concept. DougPaul is correct in saying that to grow membership, you must offer a supportive and encouraging environment for the newest members, or wannabees.

It's hard to get qualified, reliable, friendly, helpful (, ...) people, and once you do, it's of paramount importance not to burn them out! It will go a long way to say "thanks" to the leaders of any activity, as that is the only "payment" most will ever receive. Be sure any criticism is constructive -- be sure to include at least one solution to any problem you bring up.

As long as the rules are laid out up front, and properly communicated, nobody can complain too loudly. Some rides are advertised as "no drop" (drafting doesn't apply to hiking, but it's huge in cycling). Others will wait at hill tops, or intersections. Others still let you know right out that if you can't hang, here's how you get back to the start. Granted it is much less likely a life-threatening situation if you are dropped on a training ride, then if you are left behind on a winter hike 5 miles from a car or trailhead.

Nowadays, I have a loose association of folks of similar abilities and interests, and I rely on them for social hiking, biking, skiing, and fishing. That is when I'm not too busy wearing the "daddy" hat

Tim

Internet man here.

The idea of hiking with a group under the auspices of a club has always turned me off. For me hiking is an individual, not a group thing. I started hiking in the NE and using internet hiking forums at the same time and to my delight have made a lot of really good hiking friends. I prefer small groups and consider 5 about the limit. When I show up at the TH I consider it to be assumed that everyone on the trip is fullly geared up and would be able to do the hike solo - even if everyone else dropped out at the last minute.

I read a book on outdoor leadership published by the Mountaineers and allthough I found it to be very interesting I learned from it that I am not a leader and never will be one. I often organise trips and tend to take the lead on getting things happening but that isn't my idea of "outdoor leadership" within the club framework.

As far as achievements go, ie. doing big challenging hikes, working through hard lists etc. I think the best model is the partnership. Two people who fall effortlessly into sync and who are evenly matched ambition and adventure-wise as well as being solid friends is a very powerful force. Not just in hiking either - scientific research, songwriting and broadway musicals are just a few fields of endeavour where the heavy hitters are duos.