Soft shell-hard shell

As someone who has made the transition from Nylon and wool to Goretex and fleece. Can a knowledgeable person(s) explain the soft-shell concept and what the various layers are and their function. My first look sort of took my breath away (at the prices) and I'm wondering what sort of increase in capability/comfort/weight savings I would be buying.

Bill, I think the bottom line is they're very breathable (i.e., NOT wind resistant) and shed snow and light rain very well. Add that to a bit of insulating power and I find they're a very comfortable and useful winter hiking garment. Got mine on sale at Bean's.

Sorry, but I don't know the technical construction details.

My view is similar to that of Mad Townie:
Highly breathable, somewhat wind resistant, and somewhat water resistant. Very comfortable in moderate conditions, but not resistant enough for the extremes (high winds, heavy rain, etc). Then you need the old traditional hard shells.

Some view wool as the original soft shell...

Doug

From what I've read recently, mostly on VFTT and/or links posted in recent threads about softshells, they are an admission that the laws of physics preclude (despite the laws of marketing saying otherwise) having a garment that is all three: Waterproof, Windproof and Breathable (like your basic chineese menu: Cheap, Fast, Good, pick any two) and they tend to focus on only two, with waterproof often being the sacrificial trait. In my experience, breathability is often the loser and I end up soaked in sweat because a waterproof garment can't vent it, wick it, or otherwise carry it away from my skin fast enough.

Search for recent threads on soft shells and follow some of the links they contain -- quite a bit of helpful information. At the end of the trail, however, is the real test -- did this garment work for me -- and that is a difficult question to answer without trial and error.

Tim

DougPaul said:

Very comfortable in moderate conditions, but not resistant enough for the extremes (high winds, heavy rain, etc). Then you need the old traditional hard shells.

Doug

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Bill, we where 'whackin thru the snow laden spruce this weekend on Spruce/Savage, and then Mahoosuc/Fulling Mill. No place for a soft shell!

Onestep

Bill, check the old standby's - there are plenty of lower end softshells available. I really like my SS pants. Check Bean, STP, Campmor and even anywhere that sells Columbia - I have seen plain Jackets without all teh bells and whistles for $40 at Bean.
Rick

I bought an EMS soft shell jacket a couple of years ago and almost never seem to take it - it's too warm to hike in unless it is very cold, and if it's that cold I prefer layers. On the other hand, I bought some soft shell pants (REI one something-or-others) and I wear those over silk weight long johns all winter long. They breath quite well and I do not have to put on wind pants at the summits the way I used to.

I think the idea is to have one garmont that can handle a wide range of conditions so you do not have to carry and change into so many layers.

I don't know all the techno terms for all the cool gear out there. When you say softshell, are you referring to plain ol' fleece or is a softshell a garment that has fleece inside with maybe a second outer layer of something a little more wind/water resistent, because fleece certainly is not? If it is a combination item then I don't won any yet, but I love fleece. Unless it is raining/snowing/extremely windy, fleece is what you'll find me in. It breethes great, carries moisture away great, and even holding as much water as it can (which isn't much at all) it still insulates. The only clothing item I own that can be put on right out of the spin cycle of the washing machine. Very breathable so if snow is falling/raining/ or very windy then I throw on a light rain/wind jacket and I'm generaly quite toasty.

this is true if you are wearing a single softshell, but if you layer mutiple wind resistant layers for extreme winter conditions, it makes a very comfortable breathable winter system.

Last winter I climbed Mt Adams in a snow storm and high winds using a wool t-shirt, a Marmot Driclime windshirt, an Ibex Icefall softshell, a Primaloft vest and a Patagonia Krushell (now called the Ready Mix). Even with the high winds and snot freezing temps I was as comfortable as one can be in a situation like that. Unless there is any chance of extended rain, I never use a hardshell anymore. Even the most expensive breathable waterproof coats will build sweat up on the inside ( although I have heard E-vent is pretty amazing)

how do the 'soft' shells do woth abrasives - eg, bushwacking??

rup said:

how do the 'soft' shells do woth abrasives - eg, bushwacking??

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Depends on the kind you get, but most off the shelf scholler models are just as tough as 3 ply hardshells. Some even come with h20 proof area's for highly prone wet out sections. My new Ibex Solitude softshell pants have a rear made out of cordura like material which makes them pretty bomb proof.

I concluded after a lot of confusing and disappointing searches for replacement of my no longer waterproof nor breathable old Northface Mountain Light "hard shell" and "denali" fleece, that I'd limit my hardshell-softshell dilemma to Alaskan and Maryland crabs.

I haven't found anything to replace that combination with any new improvements that are nothing more than gimmicks but I have seen a lot of stuff that seems to all come from the same slave labor camp in China built around sizes that might only exist on another planet. ... in the meantime I'll try to make do with the old stuff that worked well for a long time.

This article is a couple years old but looks like a good primer on the history, marketing and use of "Soft Shells".
Soft Shell vs Hard Shell is deliberate marketing but (unfortunately) the more I look the more I like.

The soft shells from what I've seen are not too different than the first generation wind-bloc. It was too warm & did not wick enough for a inner layer & was not quite warm enough as an outer layer unless you needed an outer layer at 28 degrees, a few light snow flurries & a wind under 20 MPH. (sounds like a pretty decent winter day)

I'm all set on fleece my wind-bloc vest (no sleeves are the best pit zip ) & the shell for when I need a shell.

I hadn't weighed in because it seems like this question has been discussed to death several years ago, so it is sort of surprising to see it rehashed here. It also seems like people haven't tried or don't understand the softshell concept.

It has gotten more complex over the years, since now hard shell jackets are marketed as stretchy and soft shells as waterproof, so the differences have become less pronounced and harder to sort out. But if we think of soft shells as schoeller like fabrics I think we can make some general statements. Softshells are stretchy, close fitting, highly breathable, wind resistant and rain shedding, but not waterproof. They are generally heavier than a "hard shell" but are designed to be worn all the time and almost never carried. Part of theory of switching to a softshell is to carry an ultra light "hard shell" for emergencies that you don't wear (I haven't worn mine yet in the winter).

In my experience, for high exertion activity in the winter, like climbing, skiing up, or snowshoeing, there is simply no comparison: a softshell will be far more comfortable than a hard shell. Wearing gortex was a continual process of sweating and venting and unzipping and taking it off and then putting it back on. With my softshell, I can wear on the way up, sweat maybe a bit, and then wear it on the way down, warm, dry and comfortable all the time. If you bought something marketed as a "softshell" and you are sweating and clammy inside it, you may not have bought one made out of an actual softshell material.

At temps above 60f, softshells lose a lot of their advantage, since you may not need a jacket and may sweat in anything. My jacket is wb-400, and so is ideal for winter use. My pants are schoeller dynamic, so I find them too thin and too light for winter use, but great for summer, so I need a heavier softshell for winter pants at some point.

Michael,
Thanks for the lesson in the materials. I am kinda new to this stuff, so when I read the first part of your post, I wanted to say that a lot of newer members can benefit from some of this rehashing info. I know that I can go and search, but it is still helpful to see the new threads too.
Take care, Eric

michaelb said:

They are generally heavier than a "hard shell" but are designed to be worn all the time and almost never carried. Part of theory of switching to a softshell is to carry an ultra light "hard shell" for emergencies that you don't wear (I haven't worn mine yet in the winter).

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IMO this is excellent info.I use softshells alot.I don't look at softshells as a replacement for a hardshell but rather as a an extremely more versatile piece as part of a layering system. Just like hardshells they come in a wide range of weights,linings and materials. You have to shop and find what is good for you as far as fit and weight and your particular application. Is it for summer,fall or winter. Is it for hiking and/or backcountry skiing.

I had time on Saturday during the rain and wind event to do some searching.
Altrec and Backcountry both have nice sites that you can compare alot of different softshells. WARNING: There's alot out there being called a softshell, from $40 fleece to $450 Technical Jackets. I identified about 6 I liked based on the description, without much regard to their prices, then searched for reviews from users. Breathabilty and wind resistance seemed to be where the retailer's description and user reviews differed most often, which is understandable. Depending on what you NEED, there is a place for the right softshell. I ended up locating a $240 jacket for 1/3 of that, so do your research.